[lurkingforacure]

Ok, so I posted this week about our experiment with amoxycillin and we all have read other white rats reporting here on the forum about a significant diminishment of PD symptoms when taking an antibiotic (Pegleg: almost asymptomatic for several days while on her antibiotic for dental work...there are others of course but that is the most recent)

Connecting the dots, my head is spinning with what this might mean...

Check out this excellent analysis of Serdaxin, an anti-depressant which is being considered for use in PD. The analysis is of a recent trial of Serdaxin for depression, and in the analysis, the author makes the comment that the ACTIVE INGREDIENT IN SERDAXIN IS clavulante (sp?-read the article, this part is on the last page) WHICH IS IN AUGMENTIN WHICH IS AN ANTIOBIOTIC! I know this because we recently got a script for augmentin and the pharmacist explained to me, ever so patiently, that our insurance would not cover the name brand Augmentin but would cover the generic subsitute which consists of, you guessed it, amoxycillin and potassium clavulanate, whoa. Here's the link before I forget:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10728...axin-data.html

My feeble brain is thinking, wait, all those people who feel better, PD wise, when given an antibiotic....and it helps depression which is a huge part of PD (both because your situation sucks and because you don't have the right chemicals to enable you to not be depressed)....and we all know PD is much, much more than just dopamine....

Does anyone else hear a bell clanging or see a light blinking here?

[reverett123]

You mention potassium in the fomulation. The other antibiotic that is mentioned in Penicillin VK, the K being potassium.

I have a suggestion. Dentists routinely prescribe these for their patients who have existing conditions that might be made worse by bacteria introduced into their bloodstream by dental work. There is plenty ofpublished research to justify that with PD. Why don't we make a practice of firmly requesting prophylaxis when work is to be done? We should learn pretty quick if it works.

I'll dig up a paper suitable for that.

[madamlash]

I certainly have a white rat mentality. Anyone have a guess as far as possible dosage of amoxycillin? Any nasty long term effects like terminal liver damage that anyone knows of? Obviously one would need to be sure they didn't have an allergy. I wonder how long you can stay on it, not to mention I would think you would build up a tolerance which might kick you in the shin later if you need antibiotics to cure you of some plague.

[madamlash]

I got to thinking about long term use of antibiotics. I assume that if amoxycillin helped our PD, we would need to take it on a long term basis? Wouldn't that just be a #$%^& if we found something that fixes the PD and then kills us???? Of course, I'd still like someone's best guess as to dosage and will probably give it a go for a short time just to see what happens. I'm one of those rare people who has only taken antibiotics a couple times in my whole life so, I can probably stand a short run without much concern. On the other hand, I recall that one time I did take it, it resulted in a particularly nasty yeast infection...hmmmm.

... ( quoted from http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=749765)

1. Greater susceptibility to further sickness.

When the bacteria are treated with antibiotics, they
mutate into resistant strains that are harder to treat then the
original bug (and resistant to the original treatment). The problem
with the antibiotics is that our bodies have "good bacteria" and "bad
bacteria." We don't want the bad bacteria, but the good bacteria helps
get rid of toxins, produces vitamins and protects our bodies from
harm. They live in symbiosis with us-- we need them and they need us
(to live off our intestines!)

Antibiotics kill everything. They kill off bacteria that help us fight
off sickness and yeasts which are harmful to us. This results in a
dys-symbiosis, or dysbiosis state. The areas that used to be
protected by the "friendly" bacteria are left open to attack by yeasts
and infections, and even parasites.

You could undergo a test called a comprehensive digestive stool
analysis (CDSA) to determine whether you do in fact suffer from
dysbiosis. "A CDSA tests for the presence and amount or absence of all
aerobic organisms and the friendly facultatively anaerobic organisms
'Lactobacillus' and 'Bifidobacterium'. The organisms a CDSA reports
include yeast of all kinds, all normal and abnormal aerobic bacteria,
Bacteroides, Lactobacillus, and Bifidobacterium. A CDSA also gives
your doctor chemical information that reflects the health of your
digestive system."

A yeast that can cause your body all sorts of problems and is a common
invader is called "Candida." It would be detected by the above test.

Diseases that can befall those with dysbiosis include irritable bowel
syndrome (which affects 20 percent of the population), food allergies,
leaky gut syndrome, and possibly even depression.

Here is a study which followed healthy individuals taking antibiotics
for acne treatment and found that the ones treated with antibiotics
got upper respiratory infections at a higher rate than those who did
not:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=30847



2. Possible health side effects.

According to one study published in the Journal of the American
Medical Association, women who used prolonged antibiotics had a
greater risk of breast cancer than those who did not. This has not
been fully studied and there could be some mitigating factors.
http://www.aphroditewomenshealth.com...lth_news.shtml

'"We found that increasing cumulative days of antibiotic use and
increasing cumulative number of antibiotic prescriptions were
associated with increased risk of incident breast cancer, after
controlling for age and length of enrollment," the researchers state.'

Women who had used the antibiotics for 1 to 500 days had a 1.5 times
increased risk of developing breast cancer than those who did not.
This was seen across all classes of antibiotics.

Here is a link to the study:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/7/827



3. Antibiotic resistance

With prolonged use of antibiotics, you will probably get sick more
often, because your immune system is compromised. You will also find
that these sicknesses are harder to treat with antibiotics and you
(and they) have become resistant.

[paula_w]

I know how you feel --the acetylcholine experience produced enough connections- and sometimes the path scores a hit. need to disqualify it if indicated but I do not think it is an innocent transmitter. It even sounds chemically like a more fierce agent.

I became very caught up in studying for as many sources that i could find. there is a light history. and a future.

[GregD]

A couple of weeks ago, I woke up with the left side of my face drooped. I looked like it was going to just slide on off onto the floor. Yes, I had the inital reaction, did I have a stroke???? It was not a stroke but Bell's Palsy. The normal medication given is Prednisone. Prednisone is used to treat the symptoms of low corticosteroid levels. These conditions include certain types of arthritis; severe allergic reactions; multiple sclerosis; lupus; and certain conditions that affect the lungs, skin, eyes, kidneys blood, thyroid, stomach, and intestines. I was started on a 60 mg dose and titrating down to 10 mg over a 5 week period. As of today I am on 30 mg and to be quite honest, feel better than I have on a long time. The face is doing much better and I have regained a lot of the use of the face muscles. Many of my PD symptoms are reduced significantly. I assume this is due to reduced inflammation in my body. Will this effect remain after I am off of the Prednisone? Are low corticosteroid levels an indication of PD? Do I even have PD? One more thing to make us think.

[lurkingforacure]

GregD, that is awesome to hear, and yes, along the same lines...

My thoughts on some of the responses to this thread are as follows:

1. antibiotic resistance: this is occurring everywhere regardless of whether one person somewhere is taking a low dose version of a first-line antibiotic. So if your neighbor is sick with some bug and it mutates while he has it, that is independent of your taking your low dose antibiotic. Additionally, my understanding is that bugs mutate primarily because people do not finish the antibiotic they are given...they start to feel better, and quit taking the rest of the antibiotic and then voila, there are still some bugs in their system which are able to quickly mutute and now are resistant to the original antibiotic. I also think penicillin has been out for sooooo long that pretty much most bugs are by now resistant to it, that's why there are all these other "second-line, third-line" etc. antibiotics.

2. didn't know about the increased risk of other illnesses but personally, I don't put a lot of stock in that but would watch to be sure your gut flora are replentished with lots of yogurt and even probiotics while taking an antibiotic;

The question I have is, is the mechanism by which these seem to help PWP anti-inflammatory or antibacterial/antifungal/antiviral? Not all antibiotics have antiinflammatory properties, although you may experience that as a natural consequence of taking it. And GregD's report makes me think that it is the antiinflammatory aspect, since steroids are, well, that's what they are all about.

3. weakened immune system, didn't think about that either but it makes sense if you are knocking out the balance of bacteria in the gut wherein 80% of the immune system resides. Again, you could probably counter this by eating a lot of yogurt (it's good for you anyway!) and probiotics.

I have posted before that I wonder what would happen if they could just inject some cortisone into the brain, directly.

[bluedahlia]

Apparently, it does what antibiotics do, i.e. kills any pathogens dead in its tracks. I'm too chicken to try it, but my SO is using it and feels great. He doesn't have PD though.

[reverett123]

It is as you say. The anti-inflammatory aspect is what we want. Not all antibiotics have that. Also, since we are not trying to kill bacteria, our dosing should be much lower or less often. Maybe one every other day instead of 3x, for example.

Now for the complicated part. We tend to have strong immune systems. That's why we have less cancer. It's also why we have PD. Strong inflammatory response in the brain. We control it by means of natural steroids from the adrenals, primarily cortisol. PWP have elevated cortisol levels. This is a very effective short term solution. But out trigger happy immune system doesn't get the message. So we have twin problems of inflammation and cortisol. Because chronic cortisol is destructive and because the inflammation is chronic, we get into a see-saw effect that, over our lifetimes, wears out our adrenals and who knows what else.

When we take something that, even temporarily, stops the see-saw, like an antibiotic or steroid, we improve.

Originally Posted by lurkingforacure

GregD, that is awesome to hear, and yes, along the same lines...

My thoughts on some of the responses to this thread are as follows:

1. antibiotic resistance: this is occurring everywhere regardless of whether one person somewhere is taking a low dose version of a first-line antibiotic. So if your neighbor is sick with some bug and it mutates while he has it, that is independent of your taking your low dose antibiotic. Additionally, my understanding is that bugs mutate primarily because people do not finish the antibiotic they are given...they start to feel better, and quit taking the rest of the antibiotic and then voila, there are still some bugs in their system which are able to quickly mutute and now are resistant to the original antibiotic. I also think penicillin has been out for sooooo long that pretty much most bugs are by now resistant to it, that's why there are all these other "second-line, third-line" etc. antibiotics.

2. didn't know about the increased risk of other illnesses but personally, I don't put a lot of stock in that but would watch to be sure your gut flora are replentished with lots of yogurt and even probiotics while taking an antibiotic;

The question I have is, is the mechanism by which these seem to help PWP anti-inflammatory or antibacterial/antifungal/antiviral? Not all antibiotics have antiinflammatory properties, although you may experience that as a natural consequence of taking it. And GregD's report makes me think that it is the antiinflammatory aspect, since steroids are, well, that's what they are all about.

3. weakened immune system, didn't think about that either but it makes sense if you are knocking out the balance of bacteria in the gut wherein 80% of the immune system resides. Again, you could probably counter this by eating a lot of yogurt (it's good for you anyway!) and probiotics.

I have posted before that I wonder what would happen if they could just inject some cortisone into the brain, directly.

[lurkingforacure]

Originally Posted by reverett123

It is as you say. The anti-inflammatory aspect is what we want. Not all antibiotics have that. Also, since we are not trying to kill bacteria, our dosing should be much lower or less often. Maybe one every other day instead of 3x, for example.

Now for the complicated part. We tend to have strong immune systems. That's why we have less cancer. It's also why we have PD. Strong inflammatory response in the brain. We control it by means of natural steroids from the adrenals, primarily cortisol. PWP have elevated cortisol levels. This is a very effective short term solution. But out trigger happy immune system doesn't get the message. So we have twin problems of inflammation and cortisol. Because chronic cortisol is destructive and because the inflammation is chronic, we get into a see-saw effect that, over our lifetimes, wears out our adrenals and who knows what else.

When we take something that, even temporarily, stops the see-saw, like an antibiotic or steroid, we improve.

Rick, I was hoping you'd jump back in and help me out, thanks for that. So what we want, is something low dose that doesn't kill anything but will quell inflammation...this is what the alzheimer's "recovery within minutes" involved, I think they used Enbrel and injected it into the neck, correct? Enbrel, if I got the name right, is used for RA, powerful anti-inflammatory. So maybe it's not the antibiotics that we need so much as the anti-inflammatory action they may incidentally offer...and there are better ways to get anti-inflammatory action besides taking an antibiotic.

So how do you decide which anti-inflammatory to take, and how much? I think we'd have a much better chance of getting our doc to script it if we went in with a specific request. I guess I better get busy googling all the anti-inflammatory choices there are out there, and will focus on those that have been out there the longest.