[melon]

I have noticed with almost every supplement ive take that the best results seem to happen once taken the intially and then tend to gradually drop off to the point i dont use them unless its emergency.

Sometimes these results come back if i stop taking anything for a while, and so it has me wondering whether its more down to " shock factor " more that is causing it rather than the supplements themselves - or dare i say it even placebo

Its damm frustrating and i cant explain it, but it just seem the more unexpected something is the more it helps until it becomes almsot unoticable - sometimes even with a day or two.

Im so curious about why this is Ive considered hooking myself up to something like the neurosky or emotiv to see if i can get any ideas to whats going on, and why i can go from such a positive to a negative so fast.

Maybe if i can find some pattern i can make connection - which leads me to asking if any one else has experinced anything like this ?

m

[mrsD]

Well, the body does adjust to things. It happens with pain medication and blood pressure medication. Tolerance.

With some vitamins a "dependency" state can result. Meaning the body gets used to higher doses and then expects them.
It happens with Vit C... those taking high doses, for a period of time may actually develop scurvy when going off them.

This may vary with the doses taken. This is why I don't recommend really high doses except for B12 which is very critical and needs it when people are low.

By keeping doses in the average range, one can avoid "dependency" issues if they are going to manifest.

It is a fine line for each person, because we don't have the technology to monitor people on supplements well. That line may vary in location depending on the person.

There is also a placebo factor which may be at work. But I find that it is most likely in those who have very fast responses to supplements, which typically take a longer time to show benefits. Taking a supplement and getting results in a few hours, suggests to me a placebo effect in the beginning. Most supplements are correcting a long standing difficulty, involving many enzymes and chemical reactions, and those typically take some time to correct themselves.

[Dr. Smith]

Originally Posted by melon

I have noticed with almost every supplement ive take that the best results seem to happen once taken the intially and then tend to gradually drop off to the point i dont use them unless its emergency. .... which leads me to asking if any one else has experinced anything like this ?

Aside from tolerance, I can think of a couple of possibilities. If the supplement is something your body needs, you feel the obvious difference. After a time you may not feel the difference because your levels have increased to where you're no longer in deficit ("in the red"), so you may discontinue, but upon cessation those levels may slowly decrease until there's a deficit again. You may be close to the balance point, and those "emergency" uses may be enough to bring you up into "the black" again - for a time. I think this is why most people just continue on lower doses than those they may have started on - to keep their levels "in the black". This all depends on what supplements we're talking about, and the underlying need/reason for taking them.

I experienced this with vitamin D. I was very low at one point, brought it up with the megadose type (which I felt at first, but not later) and once the level was up, decreased to something more reasonable. If I stopped taking it altogether, I have no doubt I would become deficient again.

Do you get a sense of anticipation when you start one of these supplements? If so, there's a possibility that adrenalin or one of the other adrenal hormones is involved, making you feel better for a short time, and as time goes on that effect levels off too as levels return to normal.

Doc

[melon]

Originally Posted by mrsD

Well, the body does adjust to things. It happens with pain medication and blood pressure medication. Tolerance.

With some vitamins a "dependency" state can result. Meaning the body gets used to higher doses and then expects them.
It happens with Vit C... those taking high doses, for a period of time may actually develop scurvy when going off them.

This may vary with the doses taken. This is why I don't recommend really high doses except for B12 which is very critical and needs it when people are low.

By keeping doses in the average range, one can avoid "dependency" issues if they are going to manifest.

It is a fine line for each person, because we don't have the technology to monitor people on supplements well. That line may vary in location depending on the person.

There is also a placebo factor which may be at work. But I find that it is most likely in those who have very fast responses to supplements, which typically take a longer time to show benefits. Taking a supplement and getting results in a few hours, suggests to me a placebo effect in the beginning. Most supplements are correcting a long standing difficulty, involving many enzymes and chemical reactions, and those typically take some time to correct themselves.

Ithink you hit the nail on the head with the lack monitoring available or biofeedback ,Im pretty sure this is where we're headed with all these appliances for things like the iphone or ipad ( i dont acutally own one ) but it seems like theres potential there for some sort of self monitoring not possible on contious basis from just taking one or two scans .

AS the hellth service here looks like it s going down the swany along with everything else , I wouldnt be suprised if company like apple or someone else exploited this in some way for the growing ratio of retired , or prematurely retired people like me.

It seems even without apple some people are already trying to do this with from EEGs from scratch.

[melon]

Originally Posted by Dr. Smith

Aside from tolerance, I can think of a couple of possibilities. If the supplement is something your body needs, you feel the obvious difference. After a time you may not feel the difference because your levels have increased to where you're no longer in deficit ("in the red"), so you may discontinue, but upon cessation those levels may slowly decrease until there's a deficit again. You may be close to the balance point, and those "emergency" uses may be enough to bring you up into "the black" again - for a time. I think this is why most people just continue on lower doses than those they may have started on - to keep their levels "in the black". This all depends on what supplements we're talking about, and the underlying need/reason for taking them.

I experienced this with vitamin D. I was very low at one point, brought it up with the megadose type (which I felt at first, but not later) and once the level was up, decreased to something more reasonable. If I stopped taking it altogether, I have no doubt I would become deficient again.

Do you get a sense of anticipation when you start one of these supplements? If so, there's a possibility that adrenalin or one of the other adrenal hormones is involved, making you feel better for a short time, and as time goes on that effect levels off too as levels return to normal.

Doc

Not really, ive bee at this game too long to allow my emotions to get the better of me , though i wont deny theres still some expectation otherwise I wouldnt be trying it .

A lot of my issues ( in fact TBH all my problems ) seem to be all affected by my muscoskeletal issues , and im not just talking purely neuroapthy here , but other problems not normally related like anosmia too .

Taking something like lithium orotate or Cordyceps that relaxes the smooth muscle seems to help my neuropathy in a different way, but the problem is it also creates a catch 22 that has a terrible effect on my connective tissue ,and in turn my ability to " hold myself together " using the haptic proprioception amongst other things.

i suspect - in fact i know ive doing this so long its probably second nature , now for me to almost be continually stressed just to stop my joint getting worse ( wich in turn affect my neuropathy eventually ) so instead i try to focus on address them and whatever else i can to help the neuroapthy ( if is indeed that )

m

[melon]

Originally Posted by melon

Not really, ive bee at this game too long to allow my emotions to get the better of me , though i wont deny theres still some expectation otherwise I wouldnt be trying it .

A lot of my issues ( in fact TBH all my problems ) seem to be all affected by my muscoskeletal issues , and im not just talking purely neuroapthy here , but other problems not normally related like anosmia too .

Taking something like lithium orotate or Cordyceps that relaxes the smooth muscle seems to help my neuropathy in a different way, but the problem is it also creates a catch 22 that has a terrible effect on my connective tissue ,and in turn my ability to " hold myself together " using the haptic proprioception amongst other things.

i suspect - in fact i know ive doing this so long its probably second nature , now for me to almost be continually stressed just to stop my joint getting worse ( wich in turn affect my neuropathy eventually ) so instead i try to focus on address them and whatever else i can to help the neuroapthy ( if is indeed that )

m

I will say there is only one exception to this rule , that being supplements that make me worse while helping at the same time , up until recently this hadnt be the case at all , until I tried lithium orotate .

It turns out then that this pattern also happened with other similar supplements i tried too ( namely Ultra Cordyceps and Forskohlii ) and consquently every other time Ive tried them since .

I suspect this is because they all act on the smooth muscle some way , but Im not entirely sure , as there is very little research into these supplements to know exactly what sites their affecting compared to their chemical neuromusclar blockers counterparts/
.
I might ask this on the Fibro forum as im curious if any one else there with leg pains has noticed this when trying them too ( provided any one has tried them )

if there was some way avoid this problem without the smooth muscle becoming affected as well , I think lithium or cordyceps alone might even works better than anything else ive tried since my pn symptoms started .

melon

[mrsD]

I would call lithium a drug ...not a supplement.

And herbs are "little drugs" not supplements.

A supplement IMO is a vitamin or nutritional substance the body is supposed to consume in the diet and is not. So one supplements it.

Alternative medicine is not all supplements. Medicinal herbs contain substances that are not in the diet as a rule. In fact many of our drugs today come from herb sources.

Vit C we consume in foods containing it. If we don't we supplement it.

Now I am confused about the original question posted here. I responded thinking supplements referred to dietary ones.

I'd like to clarify here that I do not believe lithium or Cordyceps
is a "supplement" in the true sense of the word.

[melon]

Originally Posted by mrsD

I would call lithium a drug ...not a supplement.

And herbs are "little drugs" not supplements.

A supplement IMO is a vitamin or nutritional substance the body is supposed to consume in the diet and is not. So one supplements it.

Alternative medicine is not all supplements. Medicinal herbs contain substances that are not in the diet as a rule. In fact many of our drugs today come from herb sources.

Vit C we consume in foods containing it. If we don't we supplement it.

Now I am confused about the original question posted here. I responded thinking supplements referred to dietary ones.

I'd like to clarify here that I do not believe lithium or Cordyceps
is a "supplement" in the true sense of the word.

Im not disagreeing ,what you say makes perfect sense Mrs D, but some one must consider it supplement or branded in that group of herbs you mention to surely be able to sell it legally at places like this
or this

[melon]

Originally Posted by mrsD

I would call lithium a drug ...not a supplement.

And herbs are "little drugs" not supplements.

A supplement IMO is a vitamin or nutritional substance the body is supposed to consume in the diet and is not. So one supplements it.

Alternative medicine is not all supplements. Medicinal herbs contain substances that are not in the diet as a rule. In fact many of our drugs today come from herb sources.

Vit C we consume in foods containing it. If we don't we supplement it.

Now I am confused about the original question posted here. I responded thinking supplements referred to dietary ones.

I'd like to clarify here that I do not believe lithium or Cordyceps
is a "supplement" in the true sense of the word.

It actually says Herbal Dietary Supplement on the bottles ( I know im looking at it right now ) so now I m confused what I should be calling it, if not what its sold at and recognised ( i assume ) by most.

If i phrase otherwise to the masses a different way they might not know what i mean .

Whatever category you use its still something whose effects are nor entirely understood or researched - like much supplements , herbs etc

So perhaps thats another reason why its been categorised as such.

Whatever your definition , Im looking for something that doesnt require prescription i can use to achieve the results I got with taking these things- but without the drawbacks i mentioned that cause it to relax the smooth muscle.

Sorry if it wasnt clear MrsD, but im only repeating what its advertised as .

m

[mrsD]

Many people are confused about the terminology in alternative medicine. So this is just a good time to clarify things here I think.

Some people and even doctors call supplements homeopathy.
And that is very inaccurate! What they mean is complementary medicine or "alternative". Homeopathy is a very narrow specialized discipline of giving "like" substances to treat illness in extremely dilute concentrations.. arsenic is given in millionths dilutions for example! Some homeopathic products are so dilute they may not even have one molecule in them!

I think by using clear terms like, herbs, minerals, vitamins, etc there is less confusion.

Technically herbs are "supplemental" to the diet, meaning you would not find what is in them typically in the food you eat.
Exceptions to this are some of the common spices we use on our food. (ginger, curcumin, cinnamon--which are becoming therapeutic these days for some aliments).

Things like true herbs, however, are typically not eaten. Hawthorne, foxglove (a source of digoxin which may be poisonous if misused), echinacea, are not part of a regular diet.
These are "therapeutic" because they contain alkaloids which have actions on the certain parts of the body. They have to be used with extreme care, and understood before use.

When I discuss supplements here, I mean those nutrients we may be lacking from our dietary habits or from genetic failures of utilization. Some drugs also deplete these unnaturally from the body, creating side effects.

Manufacturers of things can often be misleading. Also the contents on the label may not really reflect what is really in them. Example.... a magnesium supplement may give total content in milligrams, of both the magnesium and the carrier partner molecule (like oxide or citrate, etc),. Or it may give the true "elemental" content of just the magnesium...which is the ideal correct labeling. Example 1000mg of magnesium malate has 150mg of magnesium in it. But there is no standardization for this confusion. Except in US labeling is required now for elemental IRON because of the common poisoning risk of iron in small children. This is to facilitate emergency room doctors to treat an accidental poisoning. But mineral contents for other minerals are not clearly labeled this way.

I would like to ask you, Melon, what you are trying to accomplish with your use of various things that you post about?
What symptoms do you have, and what medical interventions have you had, tests, etc?

The FDA in US calls all OTC non food substances "dietary supplements".
Meaning they are not food.

I guess when one is asking a question here then, it would help to get the most helpful answers if one is very clear on what is being asked.
Say right up front, exactly what you are referring to, and their doses.
That way there can be much less confusion.