[who moi]

an elephant walks into a bar, he asks the bartender for a draught beer. But the bartender ignored him.

He then banged his nose hard on the bar. The bartender still ignore him.

The elephant then reached his trunk behind the bar and poured himself a tall draught. Then he sucked all the peanuts off the bar and then had more beers until he was satisfied.

When he offered to pay, the bartender still ignored him...as a matter of fact, nobody in the bar said a word to him...

it was not like what the elephant had seen on "Cheers" where everyone knows your name or that you are an elephant.

He got up and left and broke the door on his way out.

The bartender then looked at the door and yelled, hey, who broke the door??

---------

OK, this is a sucky story, I know and I'll take credit for making up something sucky like that...it wasn't supposed to be funny...

why DO we ignore the elephant in the room??

always, the subject of suicide is discussed more commonly by the survivors of the ones that survived the ones that have gone...

but what about the actual thoughts...

those of us that think about it, want to do it...

what are we thinking? Why do we think it?

That kid that killed himself infront of other internet users...

what was his frame of mind at the time?

and why did he do it infront of others??

I always seem to recall that most folks that have taken their lives usually do it in private...

it always seemed that they would act normal right before...

they would go to a party, perhaps, they might go bowling, like I did...

they might be laughing and dancing just an hour before...

but most of them have done it quietly...

and sometimes, they leave a note...

sometimes, they don't...

but now we have the shooters/plus suiciders...the ones that would go on a shooting rampage and then kill themselves...

we now have people that will kill themselves on the internet infront of others...

is this a new age that we are coming into??

And to those of us that think it...

WHAT do we think? HOW do we think??

why is it that we ourselves can't decipher it...I know I can't...I cannot understand why it comes just all of a sudden sometimes...

and yet those are times are the hardest time to talk about it...when I need to the most...

I often would talk about it after I "survived" the thought...but I couldn't talk about it "During"...

yet it is funny how that would be the time when I WOULD need to talk about it the most...

I wonder if that is how it is with a lot of folks..

I know there are suicide hotlines for those that ARE thinking about it...

and I know there are a lot of folks that utilize it...and I am so glad that they are using it and that it is available...

but what about those of us that can't talk about it?

I, myself, come here...

I dig up old posts...I sit on my hands..mentally and physically...

and I put away my car keys...

my urge to drive into the water still mysterious draws me everytime I drive by a bridge..

as if the water is calling me...it is odd...it is strange...it IS there...

that elephant...

and then, the other elephant...

the elephant of denying the ones that need to talk about the ones that have passed...

someone I met recently somehow got on the subject of suicide...she started and then she all of a sudden put her hand over her lips...and stopped...

as if she was embarassed or felt it was tabooed...

we were in a semi-public place with a lot of ears...

but I whispered to her...I understand...

moss's first hubby took his own life...

yet, I found myself not able to tell her that as well??

I just told her that I understand and that if she would like, I would have no judgements...but she didn't continue...we just talked about business...

I came home and I asked myself many questions...

why was I afraid to talk about moss's first husband??

Was I ashamed of him? no...

was I considering moss's feelings? Sure...but moss is open about it somewhat and I know that she wants to help others that are dealing with the same grief...

yet, it is more than that, it is more than considering moss's feelings...

it is this self-controlled taboo...

I just felt "uncomfortable" yet I live this subject and breath this monster...heckit, I BREED it...

why do we, as a society, that care about one another, are afraid to talk about this elephant??

Why are we afraid to say to someone that have lost someone that they love to suicide yet we have no problem saying something to someone when they've love someone to heart attack or cancer??

Who made these rules? Who started these stigmatisms??

Alpho and bizi, I am sooo sorry that you lost Michael...and I am so glad that you guys are honoring him and talking about him and letting us getting to know him...

nik, I am so glad you are telling us about your dad...letting us seeing his handsome photos and telling us what a great and wonderful father he was to you...

sorry, it's getting late and I can't remember who discuss their loved ones often here...and I hope they do and continue to do so...

moss's been missing her first hubby lately..his name was "Tim"

he was the grandfather to these awesome grandmoisses...without him, I wouldn't have had the pleasure of adding two extra special souls to enrich my heart...

To Tim, who enriched lives...

To Rich, moss's brother who took his life as well...whom I met once...who was a kind soul that touched many lives also...

to all, that have gone...

you will not be forgotten...

[Twinkletoes]

Thanks, moi, for posting.

My GP's son just died by suicide. At first I heard it wasn't. I wanted to believe this because his wife just gave birth 3 days before then. But then someone said that it actually was intentional.

You just shake your head when you hear something like that. Why in the world? How could they? How dare they when they leave so many behind hurting?

Help me know what to say to my doctor. I have an appt. this coming Monday. I do better at consoling by typing than I do in real life. I don't want to say the wrong thing.

"I'm so sorry about your son." Is that enough? I didn't know him, so I can't relate any personal memories.

[who moi]

hi twinks,

I am not sure what the right thing is to say...my post is full of questions rather than answers...

some folks might get offended by the mere mentions of it...some folks might want to talk about it...

all of us are so very different...

some of us might need time before we can even mention their names again...some of us might be the type that will need to talk about it right away...some of us might not want their names mentioned ever again...

It WOULD be just so much easier if we had some sort of "rules" or even DOGMA to go by, wouldn't we??

I don't have ANY answers...that is why I asked...

I am asking:

"WHY, are we so afraid to mention it"

is it anger? is it disbelief? Is it against God? Is it cultural??

I sent an email to my Japanese friend a few years back asking him about their culture and suicide. He and I became great friends when he was an exchange student here in the states...

he told me that for them, suicide is the honorable way out...

"HONORABLE"

from the feudal days when someone would dishonor himself and/or others...

the HONORABLE way out was suicide...it then became a culture...

they are now trying to figure out why the suicide rate is so high there...

yet they have movies that film about a bunch of students committing suicide together on an island...I saw the movie...it didn't have any sort of art value at all...I was just intrigued to see if the director was asking questions..

not really, he was just abusing it...

if someone wants to make a movie about suicide...I think it would be great...but I think it should be asking the questions...not glorifying it...

sorry, I am digressing...

I wish I had the right answers...

I don't...all I have are questions after questions...about my own thoughts, about others thoughts...and about being afraid to step on toes and being afraid to talk about it...

when we, really SHOULD, talk about it...

my in-laws are some of the most wonderful, sweetest folks, that I have ever known...I have such deep love and respect for them...yet, my f-i-l, especially...has such hard time talking about it...his own son's death...and he felt responsible...

I read somewhere a couple of years back...we are separated by 2 degrees of suicide...

that means that every 2nd person we know is some how related to some form of suicide...

how can something that is so prevalent be so tabooed...

is it religion? is it fear? is it embarassement??

when I was in high school....a very popular guy killed himself...he was good looking and quite a good guy, I didn't know him well but I always wanted to be in his circle...

I remember someone saying that they tried to talk to his mom but she refused to talk about him, it, and all that...she died a few years later...

I am not sure if she ever talked about it or not...I wished she did...

I didn't talk about it for many years...I only talked about it to Alpho a couple of years back...and it felt good...

I dunno, twinks...I wish you could tell me...*sigh...I wish someone has the answers...

[mistiis]

....be emotionally supportive, and open to what his needs might be. Do not be afraid, but open, and loving...Alffe will have some wise words..(((twinks)))

[Nik-key]

((Moi)) is back and he has me crying again! In a good way of course

Moi, I don't have the answers to all your questions...... I can't understand many things about our society, this is just one of them.

I also know I can't change the world just because I wish it so. But, I DO believe one person CAN and DOES make a difference.

Long before I was a survivor of my Dad's suicide, I was a survivor of my own. It was incredibly hard, but I did reach out and speak with several people about my thoughts to end my life, so I could end my pain. Dad was one of the people who gave me the strength and courage to hang on.

It was a painful experience, both physically and emotionally. Through that long journey came an acceptance of the pain I would have to face every day, with that acceptance, also came hard fought for peace. I went from wishing to God I could die, to regarding my disease as a gift.

Due to all I had to experience to get from point A to point B, I decided to become a support group leader and a phone support to those afflicted with my pain. As ((BMW)) knows, the disease we share, is penned the suicide disease... I felt a great need to share with others that one CAN survive and truly enjoy life, with and despite this pain. I handled suicide calls all the time. I did not hide from my pain, instead I opened up and shared. Through that, I know I made a difference. I know through letters and calls I received later, that I did save lives.

I will NOT stop talking about my Dad. I am not ashamed he took his life. NO ONE has the power to make me feel I should be either!!!! He was and will always be my hero. I know his strength, he fought as hard and as long as he could. It is tragic, it is heartbreaking!!! I do, and forever will wish , I had known he was sick again and that he was able to tell me how depressed he was. He did reach out, he did tell his doctor he was depressed, sadly nothing was done to help him. That HAS to change, and I am damn well going to do everything in my power to help.

So, I may not be able to change the world, but I am making a difference. I am not afraid of that elephant, hell we invited him to dinner! We can all make a difference, WE ARE just by posting here!

My sister is a victim of domestic violence. It is taboo as well. She tried to hide it for many years. She finally found the strength to leave him and is now divorced and living with me. It was the hardest thing she has ever done, death threats, court hearing after hearing, restraining orders etc etc, it has been two years of hell for her. But through it she found her strength - I can hear her ROAR! and I am so damn proud of her I could burst! They have a motto in her DV support group...............Silence - Kills. It is so true for suicide and depression too.

We all need to keep breaking the silence. suicide is not as taboo as it once was......... but the stigma IS still there. I believe the more people keep talking, sharing - the more coalitions like the one I just joined form across the country, the world, the stigma might just be erased in my life time. Holding onto hope

[Nik-key]

((Twink)) I was saddened to hear it wasn't an accident as was thought There are tons of websites out there that give you guidelines on what to say to a survivor. The do and don'ts etc..........

Speaking from my heart, what meant the most to me was when someone expressed their sympathy as they would have with any death. When people asked me why, I wanted to scream and lash out at them... if I KNEW why I could have prevented it and he would still be here.

I am not sure how close you are to your doctor? I love mine and consider him a dear friend . I would hug him and express my sympathy over his loss. If you don't have that type of relationship, or feel you may upset him by bringing it up..... perhaps on your way out you could express your sympathy .. and /or hand him a card.

You have such a kind heart Twink, follow it.

[Alffe]

Oh Twink I suspected that it was a suicide inspite of "one" left in the chamber. And yes, "I'm so sorry about your son is enough" and the offer of a hug if you can manage it..don't be upset if he cries.

I think the "danger" in talking about our suicidal feelings is that it could trigger someone. I know we are all adults here but we have, on a couple of occasions had someone new come in and threaten to kill themselves. That isn't acceptable nor what we are about. As long as we are clear about the difference...feelings vs actions I don't think there would be a problem.

Maybe a mod could jump in here with an opinion.

Hugs for the room. If I feel stronger today I'd like to talk about my strange yesterday.

[Chemar]

Originally Posted by Alffe

I think the "danger" in talking about our suicidal feelings is that it could trigger someone. I know we are all adults here but we have, on a couple of occasions had someone new come in and threaten to kill themselves. That isn't acceptable nor what we are about. As long as we are clear about the difference...feelings vs actions I don't think there would be a problem.

Maybe a mod could jump in here with an opinion.

couldnt have said it better Alffe and for the room

[Alffe]

Well alright then! speak your feelings! Hugs for the room.

[mistiis]

well, alrighty then, lets talk about it.....First, I would like to draw attention to BMW's new signature...it has a lot of significance....finding our voice can be the difference between life, and death. For others, as well as ourselves. A truer word could not be said. Yes, I realize that some of us have had the experience of finding our voice, finally, only, sadly, to not be heard, understood, or gotten the needed help. But that is another issue.

I hope this will make sense, as I will try to just run through it, as I have lost several very well thought out posts that took me a long time to write.

Many of us have 'boogey men' in the closet. We don't know when he, it, or they, will jump out and trigger responses that we don't understand. Why?? Partly because we don't face them. Why?? Because of fear. Fear also comes in many guises, and wears many faces from societal issues to family issues. I am going to try not to get lost here....

The boogey man in the closet can be traumatic childhood experiences...running the full spectrum from sheer terror to fears of expression that result from interactions with adults in our lives. When not resolved they sit in the closet. And when the closet gets 'opened' if they are piled up, and there are many of them, they fall out. They are hard to look at. They are not pretty. They are not fun to pick up and look at. Yet, if we do not, they will pop out at us at unexpected moments in our life. Moments will arrive that will be conducive to dealing with them, if we are open to it. That does not mean that it will be easy.

The boogey man can consist of those stigmas. Like the ones that males face. I have typed a long post on this and will post it in another thread. We have several now going on this 'elephant'...I hope that it doesn't become confusing. Moi, thank you for starting this thread. You are so honest, and open, it really helps.

I am trying to get to the 'why' we don't reach out, and the 'why' we have those thoughts and feelings in the first place. I realize that I have to come from my perspective since those are the lenses that I see through. There are places in our feelings where we 'meet'...all of us do...

I think there are too many possible answers to those why questions to try to answer in one post.

I had an interesting experience at our Thanksgiving table. One that has me quite disturbed. Someone brought up the incident of the young man who commited suicide online. Well, I had been reading about it, so naturally, I became involved in the conversation. I had a lot to say. But, because of the reaction of those around the table, I found myself unable to say what I would have liked to. The attitudes shocked me. They shocked me into silence. And, once again, into my own little world. My children, and my brothers and sisters do not know about my past. They don't know about my suicide attempt at the age of 12. They don't know about my past trauma as a very young child. They know only very little about the suicide attempt that I made while in the hospital, due to psychosis from a non-functioning thyroid that went un-diagnosed. And I'm not sure they realize how close they came to losing me. According to statistics I am very 'fortunate' to be alive.

OK, I am running on.....its hard to communicate when there are emotional walls of anykind. They can be really hard to break through. But, the good thing is, that once you begin to break through that wall, it seems, to become easier to do it.

Moi, I am with you on the quiet type. I don't tell people when I am battling with suicidal thoughts, but I am becoming better at it. At least, we can come here. I guess, when you are a survivor....you learn 'how' to survive better. And I think that we have been given a gift. And I think that when we receive a gift it is nice to pass it on. Especially when it is the gift of life. A gift we were given......before we could help pass it on in this way. Lighting each other's candles...I like that graphic....

Ok...I don't know how this will come out. I am not going to take the time to check it, or I might lose it.....