I'm sorry Mark, I wasn't aware that you were the moderator of the forum and that I needed to substantiate all of my "claims" on here to you. Of course, I'm exaggerating. Mark, I am neither a practitioner or an owner of any medical device who is trying to solicit business on here. I am simply someone who has gone through many of the things people on here have gone through and I'm simply trying to help them out. So I don't see it necessary to substantiate the claims I make on here. Anyone who is interested in what I'm saying can simply inquire further, in which case I would gladly point them in the direction of qualified resources, or conduct the research on their own.
I'm sorry that you feel my posts are exaggerated and unsubstantiated. I ensure you that they aren't, I just don't have the time, nor do I have the desire, to substantiate everything that I post on here. Last time I checked, this is not a professional forum where we all need to dot our i's and cross our t's because we are giving professional advice.
I'll only address the pROSHI issue one last time. You are, again, incorrect on a number of levels. First, QEEG is a subset of neurofeedback. There is a distinction between QEEG and neurofeedback. QEEG is only a type of brain scan that doesn't administer any feedback at all. As you know, you simply put on the cap and it takes a brainwave scan of your head. By the way, not sure if you are aware of this or not, but the QEEG is a bit controversial and is not without its limitations -I won't go into those here, but you can spend the time researching them if you want to. Paradoxically, many professionals actually use the QEEG for research but don't believe in neurofeedback - this is a bit puzzling to me since one is derived from the other. Anyway, when I was referring to Dr. Ibric as being a "pioneer" I was exclusively referring to her being a pioneer in neurofeedback and not QEEG technology. Those guys who you mentioned are indeed pioneers in QEEG technology but I don't know where I would put them in the world of neurofeedback. My experience is that people like them are still stuck in the 70's and 80's and haven't kept up with the technology. If they do neurofeedback at all, they still do things the old way, which is not considered a bit archaic. But I digress.
Dr. Ibric doesn't get the pROSHI FDA approved because the FDA won't approve it. I don't know of any neurofeedback machines that are FDA approved. You mentioned one but you have yet to reveal its name. And as a side note, you seem to be very hung up on the whole FDA thing. I would caution you about this. The FDA is a corrupt government organization that is not devoid of controversy. I'm not going to substantiate this for you, but you can always research it for yourself. Try looking up how Ritalin got approved and actually, why neurofeedback isn't approved. It might surprise you.
If you understood the technology, you would understand that the pROSHI does indeed teach the brain how to function normally. Put simply, the pROSHI delivers flickers of light sequences set to the range of brainwave frequencies from 1-40Hz. The brain, being the ever plastic organ that it is, tries to lock onto the frequencies but fortunately, it can't because the frequencies are constantly changing in a random pattern. When this happens, the brain decides to default to its resting state. To do this, by way of blood perfusion, the brain will try to resolve any problems it has - coherence, phase relationships, abnormally high or low amplitudes, etc -. In other words, areas of the brain that aren't functioning correctly, the brain delivers extra blood to in order to correct the problems. This is why Chuck Davis (who is an engineer and not a practitioner) recommended to take it slowly for you because you can seriously stress your brain out if it isn't used to delivering oxygen to those areas of your brain. I've been using it since February and only now can I crank it up to maximum intensity for 30 minutes. A lot of practitioners will not only use the pROSHI as a stand alone device, but they will also add it to other therapies to augment their effectiveness. So, although the client isn't actively teaching the brain what to do, it is still learning how to act in a "normal" state. And, your comment about doing yoga to get the mind of a zen monk made me laugh. In order to get a mind like that, you would have to spend years developing your brain. The pROSHI allows you to do this in a number of months.
My understanding is that Chuck had to list his device as a "relaxation device" for legal reasons. I am not sure on this, but it seems that he wasn't allowed to list it as a neurofeedback device because he would have been forced to go through a bunch of red tape, which he wasn't interested in doing. Again, this is just the rumor I heard and has I have not verified this with him.
The fact that you listed 4 people as the "pioneers" of neurofeedback leads me to believe that you really don't know what you are talking about. There are many more people who contributed to neurofeedback and QEEG technology than those 4.
You mention that you prefer to relax and under your own control and not under the influence of a machine. You have posted on here that you never tried neurofeedback, meditation, or any other type of mind relaxation technique. So, how do you know what you would prefer? Also, if you have never tried neurofeedback, how would you know what true neurofeedback is like. Depending on the protocol, it can be a very passive process in which you totally relax and allow your subconscious brain to do all of the work. There really is not work involved by the client at all.
I'm not on this forum to debate you on what does and doesn't work. I know from experience, and from the experience of thousands of others, that what I post on here does work. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but it does some good for most people. In the future, any attempts to engage me in a debate will be ignored. If you want to be cynical about alternative therapies, then that is your business but please, let us who are looking for answers and are willing to try things to heal ourselves do so without you trying to police us. Like I mentioned before, you could always just ignore the posts you don't agree with. I know that I have done the same with a number of posts you have posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Idaho
I did not say the Mr Davis did not have a Business license. He no longer has a Corporation license. He can not operated under a name the ends in Inc or Corporation or use a corporated format for his bookkeeping and taxes.
Anybody can sell just about anything without a corporate or business license. Their only requirement is to have a Sales and Use Tax Permit on file with the Calif State board of Equalization. Such permit has nothing to do with the validity of the product sold.
Mr David's web site says ROSHI Corporation. There is no such ROSHI Corporation anymore. The Corporation license was suspended.
As for Dr Ibric's credentials. She may do a lot of conference and seminar speaking, but she does not have much peer reviewed research published. The only peer work she has done is one study done with Dr Cory Hammond. I have talked with Dr Hammond. He has had some great successes with neurofeedback but acknowledges that his results are anecdotal, not part of a scientific study.
I have been researching QEEG for 8 years. Dr Ibric is definitely not a lead researcher in QEEG, nor a pioneer. The pioneers in QEEG and neurofeedback are Robert Thatcher, Ph.D., F. LaMarr Heyrend, M.D., C. Dene Simpson, Ph.D., Sam Barrs, PhD., a group of doctors at the brain institute at New York University and others. Dr. Ibric is a "johnny come lately."
I have never said it has not worked for YOU.
What specifically has it done for you, besides the coherence and phase relationship? What symptoms has it resolved? Has it improved your memory functions? Has it improved processing speed? How long do the effect last?
The FDA approved NFB Device has shown to cause these changes but the improvements do not last and require repeated sessions with the NFB device.
I did not say it does not work. For someone who claims to be a scientific researcher, you leave a lot of loose ends in your research on this issue.
I said to be careful.
If Dr Ibric is so good with this ROSHI machine, why doesn't she do the scientific studies to get it FDA approved? She has a long list of her presentations and papers. It totals 83 but only three are actually published articles and they don't report on ROSHI directly. The rest are presentations or promotions for the ROSHI device. She is great at promoting her own services and clinic. The ROSHI Journal does not count since it is an "inside" publication.
You say to stop criticizing your posts that I do not agree with.
I am criticizing your exaggerations and unsubstantiated claims.
There are plenty of neurofeeedback therapist who use active procedures where the patient work to direct the brain into using other areas better to balance the waveform. The ROSHI works without the patient's input. It is a passive system from the perspective of the patient. It does not teach the patient how to effect change.
Anytime as device is used for something beyond its published claims, I am concerned. The ROSHI is a "relaxation device," not a neurorehab device or Neurofeedback device. It purports to enable a Zen like relaxation. That sounds nice if you like Zen like relaxation. Some people can do that with YOGA.
I prefer to relax under my own control, not under the influence of a machine. True neurofeedback uses the patients' inputs to obtain the desired result.
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