DM:

Thanks very much for what you wrote. I've been KEEPING MY WINDOWS ROLLED UP FOR OVER 7 YEARS.

And the suicide threat thing? It's his way of manipulating others to get what he wants. Since he knows that if you call up 911, that by law, they have to pick you up, bring you someplace, feed you, take care of you, etc. etc., well, he's learned that he doesn't have to GROW UP, BE ACCOUNTABLE, or whatever words I'm trying to find to express his thinking mind-set.

He told me this 7 years ago, when he started the getting on buses and getting off of buses and calling 911. The only time it backfired was when he landed in San Francisco. You see, every other time he got off of a bus (with his suitcase), he would call 911, and some paramedic or firemen would show up, put their arms over him, bring him to a crisis center, or a psych ward and he would get a place for the night (or sometimes up to 2 weeks), he would then phone me (he used phone cards at the time). I would then get a phone call from each social worker in EACH psych ward that he ended up in.

But when he did this in San Francisco, the cops showed up in a patrol car and handcuffed him. They brought him to the ER and when they saw he was no danger to himself, they un cuffed him. He phoned me and said "wow, I never knew they arrest you when you call 911". I said "haven't you learned ANYTHING BY NOW"??

I got so tired of all the phone calls that I typed up his whole background (from when he was a kid), and every time a new social worker from a new hospital would phone me I would interrupt them and say "Hold on, give me your fax number, I'm going to fax you all the info".

I must have done this 20 or more times. He did this from Arizona through California.

He finally settled in Bakersfield CA.

Oh, a poster on this forum asked me if GA was where he got his education. GA stands for GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS. This is where I believe he should be attending meetings.

He grew up in Brooklyn NY, and was put in Special Ed classes from first grade through 3rd grade, whereupon he informed us "Mom, I don't want to be in Special Ed any more, I want to be in regular classes". I then said "with your compulsive behavior, do you think you can manage being mainstreamed?" (Just imagine having this conversation with a kid in the 3rd grade, because I forget his age when we had this conversation.

He told me "don't worry, I know exactly what I'm doing".

HE DID!!! the Special Ed department started mainstreaming him in regular classes. He did just fine. He went into full regular classrooms in the 4th grade.

How did he do in the 4th Grade? Never got less than 100 on anything and had no tantrums. His teacher told me "I never think he's paying attention because he looks out of the window all the time, but then the test results come in and he gets 100%".

Then the Citywide Math tests were given. He scored in the 98 percentile OF ALL NEW YORK. So we know he's smart. He just has no soul. He sold it by the way on EBAY 7 years ago for $15.00. He drafted a document saying "This document contains the soul of ....." Some idiot bought it.

I have no way of knowing if he was gambling before the age of 20 because he was always on his computer in his room. But then, there could have been THE INTERNET GAMBLING, RIGHT?

What parents do not know is THAT THEIR KIDS ARE DOING STUFF AND THE PARENT'S HAVE NO CLUE. No clue at all.

My friend has a 30 year old beautiful daughter who parties all the time. She lives with men, then breaks up and finds another one. She drinks. What did the mother say? "oh, I know my daughter likes to drink now and then, but I know she doesn't do drugs". OH REALLY? Then what did I find when I walked into a backyard party one summer evening, (quite unexpectedly) and the aroma of Pot was everywhere and I said "oh my god, your grandma is right behind me, put that stuff out" And they were waving all the smoke around.

No one had a clue. I did not say anything because these people were 30 years old and who would believe me anyway?

And one night, I was over at a friend's house and the grandma was there, and they had asked me about my son, so I told them the latest developments. the grandma said "but he's your son, you don't send him money?" and I said "now why on earth would I send a gambler money"???

And the response? She walked over to me, patted me on the arm and said "Because he's your son".

I then countered with "If a 2 year old is walking with his parents and wants to jump off of a building, do you let them?" and she said "of course not" and I said "how come?" and she said "Well, it would hurt him, and we have to protect them".

I then said "so that same two year old is walking with you 5 times a week and every time you take him out he wants to go on the horsey ride and it costs you one dollar. And you do this 5 times a week. Then you are out of money, and you say "no" to the two year old. What do you think the 2 year old is going to do?"

She said "oh, he'll have a fit, a temper tantrum, etc." I said "now why is he doing that". And she got a lightbulb moment and said "oh, because he got used to going on the horsey ride so many times that week".

I said 'BINGO"

Now translate that to a grown up person being enabled by their parents, given free room and lodging and the parents say "but he's my son, we owe him".

She shook her head sadly and said "I could never be so strong, I would have given him all the money he wanted".

I said "thank god, he's not your son".

I'm telling you, I learn new stuff all the time just from speaking to people.

People are afraid of losing their grown children's love, and the kids know this, and they prey upon it.

Not right.

Okay, I'll get off of my soap box.

But it was really good to share all of this information with you. If this even helps one parent to put on some boundaries and say "no", once in a while, and when the kid looks at them incredulously and says" "what do you mean, NO, you can't say NO to me, I'm your child".

The parent should say "That's exactly why I'm saying NO"

Melody

You know, Mel, I bet you are booked out!

But this one is really good. And it even uses some humor to get its points across.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NEo...um=4&ct=result

Instead of approaching the problems draining people have academically, this book explains how these emotional vampires get YOU and how YOU can minimize the damage.
Antisocial
Narcissistic
Histrionic
Paranoid
Compulsive

Are the ones explained, with real life examples. It doesn't go into WHY, but instead has HOW to deal.
Perhaps your library will have this? Or used on Amazon?

It is a very readable book. You will find people you know in it, and I can say I have read it 3 times now, when I am confronted with problematic people in my life.

One basic fact that is very important that I learned in it, is that people who are extreme, who USE manipulative traits to get what they want, are really addicts. They are addicted to the rush they get from their own behaviors of the neurotransmitters that they are low on. Gamblers for example are going for dopamine primarily. But others may be auto releasing norepi, or oxytocin...etc. Therapy as we know it, talk therapy may fail with these people, since talk is cheap and does nothing for them. It is their particular "rush" they are after.

I really recommend this book to anyone who has extreme people they have to deal with. I know I recommend books alot and people's eyes may glaze over, but this one is exceptional!

Ah my dear Mrs. D. Thinking about me as usual.

You're a doll!!

I shall look into this book.

I also, never knew about the "rush" you were talking about.

But, ON A MORE POSITIVE FUN NOTE, I was contacted (by Facebook of all places, which I DO NOT FREQUENT), but where I have my profile, well, friends from almost 40 years ago found me.

I got several emails from gals I used to ride the Express bus to work with YEARS AGO.

Imagine my getting an email form Linda and it says "hi Melody, this is Linda, remember me?? " and I'm saying to myself "who the heck is Linda, I KNOW A LINDA???"

Well, upon further reading, the BINGO went off and it was one of the crew that I used to hang with when I was around 24 to age 32.

We did EVERYTHING together, from Discos, to late suppers, to them coming over to my apartment (way before I married, and I was the ONLY GAL WHO HAD AN APARTMENT, THE REST LIVED WITH THEIR PARENTS...

And I would cook my famous chicken dinners. Oh, the memories.

We are now corresponding, and they saw my youtube videos, and they said "wow, look at you".

I'm now trying to coax them to share photos of themselves.

This is so much fun.

It's like a window to the past (the better past I mean).

I am looking forward now to phone calls from them, and maybe videos.

And get this. some of them have relatives with Aspergers, and they ALL have heard of Aspergers.

Will wonders never cease??

lol

Melody

Mrs. D.

I went to the link, and read the whole preview. I had NEVER heard of this terminology before. EMOTIONAL VAMPIRES.

That is indeed MY SON!!

There are various editions up on Ebay. One is an older version for under $5.00 with $3.00 shipping and the others are around $12 or so.

Are these the same book?

I mean, they have different covers.

Let me know.

I am definitely going to buy this book.

but you know what scares me? This guy Bernstein describes EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET. No one is normal any more.

We all are SOME KIND OF VAMPIRE, now aren't we?

lol

Melody

We all have mixtures of traits.

When that mix becomes very skewed and one sided, then
that person falls into the personality disorder category.
When THAT becomes severe, they become "emotional vampires".
The psychologist who wrote that book, is a motivational speaker
who goes to businesses and addresses interviewing new employees or fixing conflicts that arise in the business world.
These extreme types can drain resources and cause terrible upheaval.

There is another book I got from the library, called Snakes in Suits. That one addresses mostly Narcissistic psychopathic types. One of the authors of this book is a Canadian psychologist who has specialized in psychopathy for 20 yrs. He has some really interesting books!
I have seen this dynamic unfortunately in action! I decided to retire in fact early because the place I worked at could not deal with this problem...it was running amok!

http://www.communities.hp.com/online...PPost4330.aspx

Mrs. D.

I clicked on the link and read the description of "Snakes in Suits"

Doesn't apply to my son.

He's a vampire.

God, can you imagine me 20 years or so ago, and some future person comes back in time and says: "Want to know how your son will turn out in 20 years?? He's going to be an emotional vampire".

Never would have thought such a thing.

But, AND THIS IS VERY INTERESTING. I've just learned info today from various sources and people I know. They have adult kids.

All have problems, none work, and the parents bought them all cars and apartments. I said to one of the people: "And she bought her son a car, WHY?????" and the person shrugged and said "Because he was breaking her chops, and she couldn't take it any more"

I just sat back and listened in amazement.

People enable because they can't take their adult kids breaking their chops any more???

Good Lord. I think I'm on another planet.

Melody

I'm getting to this thread a bit late Mel, but I will tell you my opinion. We to have have a very toxic relative in our lives. This person takes and takes and gives nothing back to anyone. I often wonder why he was even put on this earth as he only cons,manipulates,lies,begs,borrows, and sucks up oxygen. My husband calls him the "oxygen thief"

He thinks just because you have some money you should give him half of what you have. He refuses to work. We call them "bludgers", down here. A bludger is someone who contributes absolutely nothing and only works up scams to con people to further his own survival.

Just thinking about all his bull#*#* makes my blood boil.

You have a right to be angry,disappointed and indifferent. You probably reached your threshold for bull along time ago. You don't have to put up with his behaviour in your home and nobody can blame you for keeping him at a distance, and nobody can judge you until they have walked in your shoes.

My son is only 10 years old so it's tough for me to imagine what I would do if I were you. I do know that I keep this toxic relative of ours as far away as possible because I am unable to handle/process his toxicity. It's overwhelming to all of us.

I don't know how people turn out like this, I honestly don't. It's like he doesn't have a conscience and that is soo scary!!

Good Luck Mel, I hope the book helps you some.

Aussie

Good post Mrs. D.,
It's late here so I will read article in morning.
But it reminded me of this stockbroker I know who is the most cut throat, ruthless,unconsciencable,deceitful person you can imagine. He cons the elderly out of their life savings for a living. I saw him today and I got chills down my spine when he looked at me. I think he may have even sold his soul.

Aussie

There is another sociopath book...

http://books.google.com/books?id=EJL...um=4&ct=result
This one was the first book of its type that I bought a few years ago.

It discusses the "lazy" sociopath. And this type chooses to mooch off others. Has no conscience, etc. There are many types of psychopath/sociopath... aggressive, lazy, manipulative, etc.
All have different goals, but basically no conscience.
Snakes in Suits only goes into what happens in the business arena. There are many many sociopaths/psychopaths who do NOT end up in jail, or are not murderers, but they are destructive in other ways.

This book even has a example of a woman who stole a psychologist's identity and posed as one and terrorized her "patients"! Based on a true story!

Different psychologists over the years have researched these toxic behaviors, so the terms used may overlap or vary. But reading about them is very interesting.

Dr. Hare's other book is called Without Conscience. It is paperback and affordable. (he is the coauthor of Snakes in Suits).
http://books.google.com/books?id=xfI...um=4&ct=result

I find this subject very interesting, esp after I had to fend one off in my real life! I also found them in my work environment..and the only solution there was for me to
escape/leave. Sociopaths/psychopaths understand that most people extend trust and acceptance easily, and are not self protective. That is how they get into your life and cause mayhem!

Okay, so let me put my question out there.

My son, who had been initially diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (believe me, he was evaluated by MANY people while he was doing the getting on and off buses and winding up in emergency rooms), from Arizona to California, UNTIL (and this was only one doc), he was a specialist in dealing with CHILDREN WITH ASPERGERS not adults.

He was evaluating my son, and that night, my son phoned me and said:

"Guess what, I have a new diagnoses, I have ASPERGERS". To say I've never heard of this is putting it mildly. I said "I thought you had Narcissistic Personality disorder" And he said:

"Well, the doctor said "I know exactly what's wrong with you, you have Aspergers"

I was able to phone that particular doctor. (And this is a miracle unto itself because psychiatrists don't speak to parents of young adults over the age if 18), But my son signed a waiver or something to that effect.

I asked the doctor "does he gamble because he has Aspergers, or is just a gambler??"

I was told "The fact that he has aspergers disorder contributes to every single decision that he makes. He is immature, compuslive, impulsive blah blah".

I then said "But he went to college on a full scholarship and aced all his tests, so we know he's not stupid".

He said "People with aspergers have normal intelligence but can't read social clues, they are clumsy in social settings".

My son had friends as a child, and even went to a school dance at the age of 12, where he had the time of his life.

He was never A PLAYER, in the world of guys and gals, if you can understand this. He was a loner who stayed in his room, did his school work, and went on the computer (doing whatever he did on the computer) Who knew about online gambling 10 years ago, not me!!

So Alan and went to our first Aspergers Support group. No one there discussed any addictions. It was comprised of about 50 men and 3 women.

90% of the men were nothing like my son who appears perfectly normal, could have perfectly normal conversations, (well, before he left us that is).

These guys at this meeting in New York City, well, it was the most fascinating thing I have ever seen. Out of the 50, two were clearly autistic (not so much as Rainman), but they lived in group homes, they spoke in a higher pitched voice, (well, YOU KNEW SOMETHING WAS NOT RIGHT).

Some of the others were just very immature. There was a 50 year old who just wanted to learn how to clean his apartment. He had a job, he had money, but he didn't know how to clean 3 rooms.

The topic of the day at this support meeting was "how to meet woman, learn what they mean, and go on a date"

I'm sitting there in a room with men in their 50's who had never approached a woman. These men had jobs, these men WERE ALL DIAGNOSED WITH ASPERGERS, and these men had gone to MIT and other colleges, but had nervous breakdowns after college when they had to go into the real world.

NONE OF THEM CAME ACROSS LIKE MY SON

Oh, that's not true. One guy waltzed in, very arrogant, very very self assured announcing his name, (he was around 23) and said "okay, my name is (whatever his name was), and I have Aspergers and Tourettes, and now that we have that out of the way, let's get on with this meeting".

I just looked at him. The moderator told him to settle down.

Alan and just looked at each other. Because we were the NEW parents, the whole meeting basically involved around my son and we got all sort of feedback.

The moderator (who was absolutely wonderful, sociable, normal in every way possible), explained about Aspergers, etc.

But the most interesting fact was the guys who sat on their haunches. They were over 40, college grads, DID NOT WORK, were on SSI, were very sweet, but they sat on the chair, and squatted on their legs.

To say we thought this absurd is putting it mildly. But we did not know about Aspergers at the time. One guy stimmed all the time, with his finger tips. Frank used to do this nervous habit sometimes when he laughed, but I didn't know it was stimming.

The thing that confuses me is that the guy sitting in front of us was clearly autistic and the other guy who announced who he was was not clearly autistic, and they both had the same diagnosis.

This is what confuses me. Am I to believe that Aspergers (this is what I've been told), is a spectrum disorder and you can be like Rainman or you can be normal and blend in (just like the moderator of that meeting, who had had specific ABA therapy.

And I've been on forums where men with Aspergers come across as narcissistic, self indulgent, (the world revolves around me, and I don't owe anyone anything), THIS IS MORE LIKE MY SON'S WAY OF THINKING.

How the heck can one disorder present IN SO MANY VARIOUS WAYS.

Extremely confusing.

I can only respond to the behavior that is being processed at me. Whether or not the person has one diagnosis or another diagnosis, if that person is selfish, self indulgent, malignant, narcissistic, WHATEVER, it makes no difference to me what his diagnosis is, BECAUSE TOXIC IS TOXIC.

And one psychiatrist once told my son "what may eventually save you is your intelligence".

So we have an almost 28 year old man who lives in a virtual world, gambles on the internet, and when he makes money in SL, he goes to Vegas and loses everything, and who obviously does not consider anyone but himself.

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASPERGERS DISORDER????

I mean, depending on who I ask, I've been told "no, this doesn't sound anything like Aspergers, it sounds like he's a narcissist". and I've also been told "no, he has more than one diagnosis going on besides the Aspergrs".

I've also been told "Well, it sounds like he has Peter Pan Syndrome", meaning "I won't grow up".

Since I will never know what the heck his actual diagnosis is, I am left to make a determination.

Do I want contact with a self, self indulgent VAMPIRE, who literally makes me spasm, be constipated, and gives me a pain in my heart?

I don't.

I fell bad because I DON'T FEEL ANYTHING.

But it is what it is.

I've read the Vampire thing, the snakes in suits thing, the malignant self love thing.

I've met sociopaths who have no conscience, men who use women. (I once was involved with a man (this was when I was 28 years old).

I was madly in love (I was naive I gather because I believed him and why wouldn't I because there were no clues).

He stayed with me from Friday night till Monday Morning. Every single holiday, every single weekend. He met my family. They adored him. He was very sweet, and came off as a darling 24 year old guy.

He did not live near me so that's why we saw each other on the weekends.

I also met HIS family. I was invited to meet his mom, his grandmother, his sister and I went there for dinner.

Something was off in that family, he knew it, I knew it, so I never went back. But we had our relationship and we interacted with all MY friends and they loved him. And his friends came over for the weekend and I cooked and we had laughs.

What I'm trying to get across is that all this socializing did so IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS.

He worked during the week, I never questioned his not coming over during the week because I also worked.

He once showed up at my work place with a Rose for each of my co-workers. I thought it was strange that a man would do this for my co-workers but they ADORED THIS GESTURE.

We all went out to lunch and he walked out arm in arm with two of my female co-workers, one of whom said to me "you are SO lucky to have such a thoughtful boyfriend".

We even spoke of marriage. He met my family, etc.

Well, one day, he disapperared from my life. I tried calling but the number did not work, and I did not have a number for his family and they lived way away from me and I did not drive (he did).

I almost went out of my mind. We had not been fighting, we had not been ANYTHING. He just disappeared. I almost had a nervous breakdown.

One day, 3 months later his friend called me and I said: 'oh my god, is he alrights, what happened?" and he was very sad when he explained the whole thing to me.

He said (and I'll never forget this conversation until the day I did and it was over 30 years ago).

He said:

"what he did to you was not right". I said "what do you mean, what he did to me, is he all right, is he hurt, is he dead??"

The response??

"He got married". I said "He got married???" Who the hell did he marry?"

He said "the person he was living with". I said:

"He was living with me from Friday to Monday and sometimes Tuesday"

He said "yeah I know, but he was living with her from Tuesday till Friday".

I STILL DID NOT GET THIS.

I said "What are you talking about, where did she think he was from Friday till Monday and all the Christmases, and all the holiday, and Thanksgiving"??

(our relationship was over one year by the way).

He continued: (and this was very hard to swallow).

SHE HAD HER OWN THING GOING. She lived with another man during the weekends.

I just stared at the phone. I never knew people did this.

I said "And he married a woman who was leading a double life, why would he marry her". And he said "Because she gave him $10,000".

To say that I almost lost my mind over this is putting it mildly.

I could barely trust anyone after this.

So to have my son do basically the same thing to me, is why I have the walls up, the boundaries up, and the heart that really wants to heal, and feel again, but is having one heck of a time.

I'm sure you all get what I mean.

And thanks for listening.

Melody