Dear Car Gal,
I appreciate your sense and calm. I'm not calm and I only have a little sense

The results are the same as you say. She might have a hard time getting him out.

Bizi is more level headed than I am. That was me.

They are the same.

I know that Jacquie is not tricking her husband. She is sincerely trying to do the best for him. She seems a little naive and uninformed.

My point was that Jacique might want to listen to someone --- like his real pdoc -- more than the social worker and that there is no rush to have him committed. She is worried about his spending his summer in the hospital. At least he is safe there and she has access to him.
I still think she needs to talk to a lawyer about the ramifications.

We have few rights in this country as it is. I would not want a spouse or anyone else to take away my legal rights simply because this is the fastest way to get care. There is not big hurry. The move to the hospital can wait until exactly the time it should be so.

If anybody cooperated with a pdoc to have me in the hospital involuntary -- even if I was not aware at the time ---- when I got out I would leave forever. I stand by that.
The treatment would be a mess because I would have to start all over with a pdoc somewhere else. The commitment would be for naught.

M.

Dear Jacquie,

Are you near Carrier Clinic in Belle Mead N.J?
45 East Mountain Road
Belle Mead, NJ 08502-3911
(800) 933-3579

The best and most wonderful pdoc in the world runs the clinic. He's a genius and he takes very good care of his patients -- like they are his own family.

M.

But Mari, you are fully a partner with your doctors. There are no people off in another room discussing what's best for you. You are not hearing voices, you are not under suicide watch. I know you are having a very hard time now & maybe you are hearing voices of you muttering to yourself, & you may be having some desperate thoughts in light of all the sleep deprivation you've suffered.

Still, you are steering your own course, making your own choices. Jacquie's husband isn't, hasn't, & can't be expected to any time in the near future. He has been through horrible experiences & loses since the first of the year. So has Jacquie. I don't want to make things any harder for her by adding concerns that I don't think, in context, carry the same weight--considering that her husband is really unable to do anything for himself now.

Do you want to have her feel guilty for trying to speed his care?

Okay. I'm putting myself in her place, & I'd be a total mess by now in her place. Besides, you & the others here know her so much better than I. It's just that I want to support her. I guess Im wrong about how to do that. Won't be a first time.

Sorry, Jacquie. I don't know. I thought I saw a simple, straight path through this, but Mari is no dummie. I've come to respect her a lot. I'm not sleeping either & have other stuff on my plate so I'm not so sure as I was.

Prayers I can do. That's because I just ask god to figure it out & fix it. Finally gave up sending orders. >CG

p.s. I'm so sorry, Mari. I didn't want to upset anyone. Clearly, I wasn't hearing what I said or I would have known I would. Sending me to bed now....

HI,
It's up to Jacquie.
I am suggesting that she talk to professionals higher up than social workers.

She does need support. I am coming across perhaps too strong. I deeply about the rights of the mentally ill -- even if --and especially if -- these rights are inconvenient for family members. People fought hard to get the 1960s and 1970s civil rights laws passed for mentally ill. They are good laws in places for a reason.

It's good to help Jacquie. We can have several opinions here.

Yes. Acceptance works.

I promise to take it easy from here on out.

M.

Absolutely NOT! I think everyone will agree that we'll all be better off if you'll just promise to be you.

You were fighting for the rights of the mentally ill in danger of losing their rights... the way of lost rights leads to "The Snake Pit." I've been that vulnerable person, Mari. I had a caring lawyer & friends who made sure I didn't disappear (& wasn't mistreated), but not everyone's that lucky & I might not always be.

So you just be you. No need to make allowances for that. All things being equal, I'd rather have you fighting for me than me anyway... >C.G.

I'm not exactly sure where to begin to address all of you! I can start with the easy one first --
bizi - the Vistaril is for anxiety, but I'm not even sure that he is still taking it - was only PRN anyway.

To make easy work of the rest of the comments, I will tell you of the conversation that I had with the social worker this morning. This will actually put an end to much of the discussion anyway...

1) Altho the hearing is coming up on Friday, the soc. wkr basically made it clear that he is ALREADY considered in there INVOLUNTARILY. Whether it's true or not, she made it seem like the hearing was basically a formality. Also, neither he nor I actually have to be present for the hearing. I pointedly asked if DH was aware of his involuntary status, and she said he was. I will ask him in person about this when I see him today.

2) Now I know why they were rushing to try to get DH moved last Friday -- She told me, only this morning, that a patient can't be transferred within five days before a hearing, which means he is stuck in this place ALL WEEK. That means the soonest he can be transferred to this other hospital is Friday afternoon .

I also found out the facility is further away than I thought, and, in addition, they have very restrictive visiting hours - 6:10-7:10 every evening. That basically stinks .

My son is off today, and he called the pdoc at the place he's in now, to get some answers straight from him, and also to make sure he was informed about dh's episodes of hearing voices, and to get his take on things. As far as his pdoc on the outside, apparently they don't consult with outside doctors very much, which makes no sense to me. I had called him about a week ago, and plan to call him again today. It's as if they don't want any input from anyone else, they just want to 'do their own thing'. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. Maybe I will find out different from the pdoc, assuming he actually calls me or my son back.

I appreciate all of your input and concern, and I certainly don't want to start a civil war here .

I will let you know what develops....

Dear Jacquie,
A formality is by definition real/ definitive/clear. At the hearing, the government will strip him of his rights.

Being considered involuntary and being declared involuntary by the state are two entirely different things.

Of course you have to make the best decision you can for yourself and your family based on what information you have now. I am trying to say that the social worker is wrong. You need more information because she is making light of something by calling it "just a formality."

You and he do not have to be present for the hearing, but he should be at the hearing. The hearing is about him. Why would you advise him not to go to his own hearing?

I don't know what the rush is to get him moved. Wherever he is, he is going to need a long recovery time after he gets home. Take your time finding out more about the hearing. It is good that your son will talk to the pdoc. Has your husband signed HiPAA forms to allow the pdocs to talk about him?

M

Mari, I understand where you are coming from with the social worker's making light of the formal hearing. I just went to the link provided me about the NJ Commitment Process. Then I called my husband to ask him about the hearin, etc. He said he did NOT know that he was being switched to an involuntary commitment. He didn't seem to voice too much of a protest, but he say he wanted to be 'voluntary', so I'm not sure how upset he actually is. He was planning to go find the social worker after we got off the phone. Now it could be he was told, and he wasn't doing well at the time and her forgot?? I have no idea now what is really going on.

Yes, t's good that my son is going to talk to the pdoc, but he actually call him back? It's 3:00 pm now, so we will see...

I've got things to do, and I'm not getting anywhere going over and over this here.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jacquie, here's a resource that's objective, accessible from home & (if you call them twice) ought to give you an answer you can go to court on. It's probably easier to read on the website:

http://slic.njstatelib.org/ask_a_librarian

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Not sure but it sounds like the facility is wanting to get rid of him
for some reason.

I would be finding a new pdoc.

I would be getting all the answers you can. I am not sure I would
want him moved, without the court knowing what they are doing.

Donna