Dear Bizi

You should absolutely tell her. i didn't hear anything in what you listed that rang a bell regarding possible mania, but i don't know all of those plants either.

you should also inform her of all your meds and ask if there are interactions.

i'm quite concerned about something lowering your of Geodon level.... or raising Lamictal to crazy levels.

if impact on the metabolic routes is not known, or is unpredictable... then taking these herbs with meds is unadvisable.

A naturopath will surely know what combinations are "ok" and what are not - among herbs themselves, but she may not know the whys and why nots. She may not be aware of metabolic routes. That knowledge may simply not be available, because it is very difficult to establish compareed to a lab-made pharmaceutical, because

• a single plant can have a vast number of active constituents. each constituent would have to be tested in vitro and in vivo against a "benchmark" pharmaceutical to possible metabolic interaction.
• identification of all the active phytoconstituents can prove challenging from one sample to another. variability between one plant and another - constituents of the same species will inevitably vary depending on their growing conditions (light, shade, water, terrain, space, temperature, humidity, even in the same cultivation. different geographic locations can produce even greater differences...

an effect of the latter point is that the amount of each active phytoconstituent can vary from tablet to tablet, unless they are standardized by phytoconstituent.

even if the labeling claims standardization however, it can be quite arbitrary because standardization of supplements is not FDA-regulated. there is a law that supplements must not have effects equal to a medication, and it might go further than that. the problem is, unless there is proof that one or more of the constituents can have actions similar or identical to a known pharmaceutical, the regulation cannot be applied.

what this means is that when you take a supplement containing (e.g.)
1.5 mg astragalus, you have no assurance that

• the amount of plant in each pill is in fact 1.5 mg (no standardization)
• the phytoconstituents in each pill are in the same quantities (even if a breakdown is listed)

the effects on metabolism can consequently be unpredictable even when are known for at least the major constituents of a particular herb.

Here they are starting to standardize and regulate supplements.

please just do be careful if you decide to go ahead and try these.

one thing you could do to check interactions on yourself, might be to request level testing before you start, and again after 2 weeks of taking them - or something like that. :hug::hug::hug:

~ waves ~

The "change" can be very different for each individual woman.

I didn't have much trouble, just with sleeping. When I started methyl B12 that normalized for me very well.

One thing that can make for sleepiness after eating is INSULIN
overproduction. Eating a large night time dinner will stimulate insulin release and this will make one typically sleepy.

The solution is to have larger breakfast and a good lunch with a lighter supper. Also high carb content at dinner typically will make one sleepier too.

If you are taking that tetracycline still? That may over time deplete some nutrients:
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTR...ibiotics.shtml

Mayo clinic evaluates some complimentary and alternative medicine ---- pointing out that none of them have good science to back them up.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/men...ative-medicine
Yoga works for some people.


M

well I forgot to tell you that this supplement allowed a woman to get off her antidepressants so it has anti depressant qualities.
yes I am still taking the tetracyclin mrs d. thank you for posting that.
Dear waves, I appreciate your input very much and will tell her in a private email not in person.confidentiality, I met her in the health food store.
Jeff said he is willing to help watch me. I looked up the chemicals/herbs last night and they all sound really good and healthy.some are calming others are enrgizing, some help resist stress. eleuthero is ginseng, I had a reaction to that a long time ago but don't know what type that was or if there is only one kind of ginseng. It was a sport drink of sorts and it had a lot. These new supplements have small amounts of these ingrediants. I think it is worth a try especially since my pdoc suggested that I try a small dose of an anti depressant the last time that I saw her.
thank you mari.
((((HUGS))) to you all
bizi

Hi, Bizi,

Tell her in person instead of email. Email is not private and it lasts forever.

M

I called into my pdoc and left a message about the supplements. Am waiting to hear back from her office manager I never talk to her outside of our appointments.The last time that I saw her was a bit more than a med check
visit $120 out of pocket because she no longer takes my insurance.She gave me free samples of geodon which saves me money/ geodon just came out with a generic! It used to cost my insurance company $500 a month.I had a $50 copay. now I don't know what it will cost me.
bizi who came home and took a nap from our walk after dinner....:(
sigh

hmmmmm....
 

well that's good. i am glad you are talking to your pdoc about it.
right, but
--- did you find anything about metabolic routes??
--- did you look up the herbs, the active constituents of each herb, and effect of each constituent?

if so i am truly amazed... maybe you could pass along the sources??? :o because i sure would be interested for my own research!

.... whenever i look for this stuff what i find are *LOTS*of dead ends, brick walls and "generalities" like "safe and gentle" or things like "activating" and "calming" ... those things don't tell me squat as to how the drug affects metabolic processes/other drugs. :o:( i have found specific information on a handful of herbs, and some was from books written by an MD specialized in herbal medicine here.

there are several kinds. Eleutherococcus senticosus is Siberian ginseng which is not technically a ginseng but it has similar properties, and it is in the same plant family (araliaceae). more common is the Panax genus which includes "American ginseng" (Panax quinquefolius) and Chinese ginseng (Panax ginseng). All of the ginsengs are activating. my mother worries when i so much as have ginseng tea. :p:D

phytochemicals can be extremely potent. a small amount doesn't mean necessarily a small effect. nonetheless, i agree with you that for the antidepressant effect it might be worth a try. regarding a reaction, you'll just have to see how it goes, as you would with any new med.

regarding interactions, i strongly suggest level testing before you start, and then 2 weeks after, to check if med levels have been affected. that includes all your meds: Geodon, Lamictal, Klonopin and anything i don't know about.

Klonopin is partly metabolized by CYP450 3A4 which is an extremely common enzyme pathway. Several herbs induce or inhibit that also, which would change your level. Echinacea for example does both - acts differently on the enzyme in the gut vs. in the liver!!! so in its case depending WHERE a drug is predominantly processed matters too! :eek: (i suspect this "dual" effect is most likely by distinct action of 2 separate phytoconstituents in the plant.)

Geodon is also partly a CYP 3A4 substrate but indications are that interactions with inducers/inhibitors may not require a dose adjustment. I suppose if you are at a borderline-therapeutic level, then an inducer could still drop you below.

Lamictal is primarily metabolized by glucuronidation/conjugation but that can also be affected (again Echinacea for instance...)


a before-and-after level check would provide direct empirical information pertaining to you specifically, which beats all theory and statistics. ;)


good luck with this! :heartthrob:

love

~ waves ~

Just a brief reminder here. Atypical antipsychotics can raise blood sugar...it can sneak up on you. One sign of rising blood sugar is excessive fatigue. If you can, Bizi, get some blood work, and A1C done to make sure this is not happening. It can spring up very quickly.

Also I agree with waves...herbs are really not benign. They are mini drugs and have potential to do unexpected things.

The drug checker will check food/herbs as well as drugs.
http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php

thank you waves and mrs d.
I will wait to see what my pdoc wants to do. I recently had a blood sugar finger test done and it was 80 and I had already eaten lunch before then.
I had a big dinner last night, 2 bocca burgers, cup of lentil soup and a big salad with feta cheese, probably 600 calories. I still had to take a nap. My energy level during the day seems to be normal.
This is the time that I used to go to the gym. now i need to take naps and still sleep just fine at night when we go to bed at midnight. but I also take klonipin to sleep, which works fine for me. thank goodness.
bizi

still having the fatigue in the evening, very frustrating...sigh
I have not heard back from my pdocs office...maybe I should call them again.
I am feeling very leary about the supplements.
bizi