[jon]

Hi, Bryanna, I hope you're nearby. You'd have to be a genius to remember everyone, but I talked with you a lot about problems I was having with the state dental school putting implants in for me. Yesterday I was there for the 'fitting of the lower plate'. They had made the final lower plate(?_) The plastic teeth had been put in place, any adjustments had to be final, then they would send it to the lab where the permanent plate would be made. After the next visit, if all was well, they will screw the acrylic plate into the implants permantly.

Here's my current problem: I wish I could draw it for you. The teeth were not too bad in front. However, they are so thick in back - from the bottom of the teeth - there is about a half inch gum on to those. The front implants will be screwed on to that plastic back of the front teeth, two screws go straight through the middle of the teeth ( where the caps are now screwed in) on each back side.

I complained immediately about the thickness on the inside of my mouth. It feels awful and it does not seal to my mouth. The result is that everything I eat will go under the plate and I'll feel it till I can get it out. The resident said I would just have to brush my teeth everytime I eat anything. That it had to be that thick to keep the teeth from breaking off - that all of the metal was in that lower band and if they take it off, my teeth will break.

I asked for the head of the department. He finally came in and immediately told me that they had done all they were going to do. That I was the worst patient they'd ever had. That they'd tried everything I asked about, and that nothing pleased me. That I complained more about nothing than anyone they'd seen. etc, etc. That if I didn't like it, they'd take it out and I could go to someone else. Are you getting the picture?

After they botched my surgery. After they refused to give me another resident when I asked for him. After I just about had a stroke because of a cement they were using. I'm allergic , had anapolactice shock, had to have oxygen, etc. They made nice until I got to this point of no return. I'm 78 if you remember, have very high blood pressure, many other health problems, and am handicapped. After 2 years of this stuff, I end up worse off.

This is really jumping all around. I'm sorry, but I really need some advice on what I can do. I haven't been able to see the Dean of the school for the almost 2 years I've been going there and asking. If I could have gone to another dentist yesterday, I would have. There are so many there, but I know nothing about them. I need someone to look at what's there and tell me if anything else can be done.

I also need to know if he can come in and talk to me as he did. I was so shocked, I couldn't say anything. If I don't agree with what they did, they will just not finish. They can't do that,, can they?

Please answer if you can.

Jon

[jon]

EVERYONE........ I didn't mean to exclude everyone but Bryanna! I need help, info, directions, suggestions, etc., from all of you. This is quite urgent for me because I have to go back next week. You know the gods of the mouth don't work on weekends, so please, I need all the input I can get, as quickly as I can get it.

If you have the time and inclination, my messages here started last year. There were a lot of them. Please tell me any little thing you can. It'll help me more than you can know.

Thanks, Jon

[Koala77]

I'm sorry that I have no answers for you Jon, but I did see your posts and I wanted you to know that you weren't being ignored.

I know that you addressed your concerns to Bryanna, and I'm sure she'll help you if at all possible, but I wanted to let you know that she's not on line here at NeuroTalk all of the time. She does however, drop in when she can.

We can both hope and pray that either Bryanna or some-one else, will drop by and help you out. Please don't give up hope ....I'm sure you'll get a reply before too much longer.

[Dejibo]

It does sound like you are on the right track to seek out the Dean. NO ONE has the right to speak to you that way, even if you are being difficult. There has to be some sort of a patient advocate for that school. Even though dental schools can provide some fantastic services for low fees, they still need to make their product based on the needs, and life style of the patient they are helping. If you had a filling that was too high, and your teeth rubbed, or clicked on it all the time, they would file it down or try to make it right.

I do not have dental proceedure knowledge, but do not think I would quit on this and play the "its as good as its gonna be, and your gonna have to live with it." option. Please dont stop asking for better answers or rep. Even if it means seeking out legal avenues. Keep knocking on doors till someone gives you some answers, and directions.

[Kitt]

Hi jon,

I had read all your posts previously and had been following along. I really do not have any advice. It is just awful as to the things you have been enduring. I hope that you get some answers soon. Take care.

[Bryanna]

Hello Jon!!

A genius I'm not but of course I remember you........ I often think to myself, I hope everything worked out ok for Jon... he'll post soon to let us know ~'.'~ And here you are, but unfortunately not with good news :-((

I think I understand your description of the lower implant denture. But I'm confused about one thing ..... is the lower denture complete? Or was this appointment for just a fitting and the denture is going back to the lab?

Implant dentures can be made to fit a variety of conditions but there are limitations depending on the height and width of the jawbone. The lower jaw can be very tricky to fit comfortably with any type of full denture. If you have alot of bone loss in your lower jaw, then the acrylic part of the denture would have to be thick in the back below the teeth to take up the space where your bony ridge would normally be. It cannot fit snug against the lower tissue because it would cause severe irritation when you chewed your food. Yes, this is bulky to your tongue. Yes, food will tend to get trapped underneath. If the acrylic were thinner and/or shorter, like it is in the front, the denture may not seat adequately on the implants. This condition would cause excessive force on the implants when you chewed. Sometimes, the acrylic part of the denture can be adjusted a little bit to lesson the bulkiness, but not necessarily enough to make a whole lot of difference.

Every denture patient, whether implants are involved or not, has to go through a period of trial and error. You literally have to learn how to eat all over again. You may need to brush and rinse (with warm salt water) after every meal for awhile until you get acquainted with your new teeth. But in time with some perseverance it should get better.

Jon, I know you have been through hell with all of this. I remember your situation well. I think you will have to go along with what they have done because they may not be able to alter it due to the particular placement of the dental implants and the inadequate level of your jawbone.

Do I think they should speak to you the way they did or treat you poorly?? Absolutely not, no one deserves to be mistreated for any reason!! You have been pushed around from the get go and have tried to be compliant with all of their demands and you have endured great stress over the whole ordeal. You have beena great patient without any doubt!!

I cannot emphasize enough the limited workability (word??) there is in making a full lower denture. It may be the best that it can be.

Jon, follow this through and get your teeth. Then make every effort to be heard by the dean of that school about the way you have been treated. Even if it means writing to the local newspaper and the school newsletter or school publication.

I know you are dissatisfied...... I am so sorry. Please write again soon :-)

Bryanna

Originally Posted by jon

Hi, Bryanna, I hope you're nearby. You'd have to be a genius to remember everyone, but I talked with you a lot about problems I was having with the state dental school putting implants in for me. Yesterday I was there for the 'fitting of the lower plate'. They had made the final lower plate(?_) The plastic teeth had been put in place, any adjustments had to be final, then they would send it to the lab where the permanent plate would be made. After the next visit, if all was well, they will screw the acrylic plate into the implants permantly.

Here's my current problem: I wish I could draw it for you. The teeth were not too bad in front. However, they are so thick in back - from the bottom of the teeth - there is about a half inch gum on to those. The front implants will be screwed on to that plastic back of the front teeth, two screws go straight through the middle of the teeth ( where the caps are now screwed in) on each back side.

I complained immediately about the thickness on the inside of my mouth. It feels awful and it does not seal to my mouth. The result is that everything I eat will go under the plate and I'll feel it till I can get it out. The resident said I would just have to brush my teeth everytime I eat anything. That it had to be that thick to keep the teeth from breaking off - that all of the metal was in that lower band and if they take it off, my teeth will break.

I asked for the head of the department. He finally came in and immediately told me that they had done all they were going to do. That I was the worst patient they'd ever had. That they'd tried everything I asked about, and that nothing pleased me. That I complained more about nothing than anyone they'd seen. etc, etc. That if I didn't like it, they'd take it out and I could go to someone else. Are you getting the picture?

After they botched my surgery. After they refused to give me another resident when I asked for him. After I just about had a stroke because of a cement they were using. I'm allergic , had anapolactice shock, had to have oxygen, etc. They made nice until I got to this point of no return. I'm 78 if you remember, have very high blood pressure, many other health problems, and am handicapped. After 2 years of this stuff, I end up worse off.

This is really jumping all around. I'm sorry, but I really need some advice on what I can do. I haven't been able to see the Dean of the school for the almost 2 years I've been going there and asking. If I could have gone to another dentist yesterday, I would have. There are so many there, but I know nothing about them. I need someone to look at what's there and tell me if anything else can be done.

I also need to know if he can come in and talk to me as he did. I was so shocked, I couldn't say anything. If I don't agree with what they did, they will just not finish. They can't do that,, can they?

Please answer if you can.

Jon

[jon]

Thank goodness you got this, Bryanna! Let me get this clear with you. When you spoke about the ridge being too small - you spoke of it being in the back or chewing part of the partial. It's in the very front of the lower teeth that all that ridge that drops down then goes to the inside where the food is going to be trapped. It won't do that in the back. Does this make any difference? They also said that the top of the screw will be a different color- not much, but slightly different.

On the back teeth on each side, there will be one tooth screwed into the implant. That's a total of two. The other three will be spaced along that ridge back of the front teeth. Those screws will not be through the top of the teeth like the back will be. They will be back of the front teeth on that ridge. Am I clear as mud?

My reasoning for its being that way is that they put the front implants in the wrong place - that they should have gone forward of where they are. The surgeon who did these was the one from .ell who wouldn't deaden the gums enough through the 5 hours of surgery, etc. If that were the case, it seems they should have told me at the time about the difference it would make. They all said if was just perfectly done, of course. I complained to them about the thickness in the 'model' from the first. They kept telling me not to worry - that the final one would be completely different . How in the world could it be? Nothing has gotten better.

To answer your question about the stage we're in - I have signed the paper where I agree that the appearance is ok. The teeth in the model that day were movable. After the pros. dean made his godly appearance and declarations - saying they would absolutely do nothing else- take it or leave it, etc., I had no choice but to sign it. Otherwise, I'd be left with just what I've got in my mouth - the implants with the tops - no teeth.

I think it's illegal for a dentist to drop a patient after both have agreed on the work and it's started. As much as I'd like to hit him and the school with a law suit, that wouldn't help me now. Can you imagine how I feel going back to this resident he wouldn't change for me when I asked hime? The resident is the one who caused all this stuff with his poor work. My son in law took me and stayed with me in the room each time because I did not feel safe at all around this man by myself. He can and has done things that I couldn't tell about until later. I have no confidence that he won't do something again.

I'm not an overpowering person nor a mousey person. I treat people as I would like to be treated. Acting is not part of my makeup, but I feel I must have some plan as to how to act when I go back. Any ideas?

I've unsuccessfully tried to reach a nearby dentist to get a second opinion with the possibility of finishing it with him. He's out of the office until Monday, and I left a message about the nature of my call on his phone. I know two people near my age who go to him and like him. Who knows?

I'm female, by the way. Jon comes from initials in my name.

Thanks, Bryanna, and all of your who answered. You have no idea how much it means to me that someone heard me. I'll listen for anything more.

Love to all, Jon

[NAM1]

Hi Jon
I can so sympathize w/what you are going thru. Thru personal experience, I have found that a medically challenged patient can become labeled "difficult" when a provider can not properly perform dental wk.
While I can not offer dental advice per se, I can offer these suggestions:
Be the Squeaky Wheel. Don't just go away (as many people do). You have the right tb treated like a human being, regardless of circumstances. Be persistent abt that.
Be clear abt what results you want to have happen.
If you have one in your area, you might consider filing a complaint w/the local Board of Dental Examiners. No guarantees, but it can't hurt to try.
Keep plugging.
I have learned from your post I very likely do not want post implanted dentures or dentures at all. Perhaps you can get something from my post, too...fair warning, it is now @ 5 pgs!
(Thank goodness for Bryanna!)
Hope things wk out for you.
NAM1

Originally Posted by jon

Hi, Bryanna, I hope you're nearby. You'd have to be a genius to remember everyone, but I talked with you a lot about problems I was having with the state dental school putting implants in for me. Yesterday I was there for the 'fitting of the lower plate'. They had made the final lower plate(?_) The plastic teeth had been put in place, any adjustments had to be final, then they would send it to the lab where the permanent plate would be made. After the next visit, if all was well, they will screw the acrylic plate into the implants permantly.

Here's my current problem: I wish I could draw it for you. The teeth were not too bad in front. However, they are so thick in back - from the bottom of the teeth - there is about a half inch gum on to those. The front implants will be screwed on to that plastic back of the front teeth, two screws go straight through the middle of the teeth ( where the caps are now screwed in) on each back side.

I complained immediately about the thickness on the inside of my mouth. It feels awful and it does not seal to my mouth. The result is that everything I eat will go under the plate and I'll feel it till I can get it out. The resident said I would just have to brush my teeth everytime I eat anything. That it had to be that thick to keep the teeth from breaking off - that all of the metal was in that lower band and if they take it off, my teeth will break.

I asked for the head of the department. He finally came in and immediately told me that they had done all they were going to do. That I was the worst patient they'd ever had. That they'd tried everything I asked about, and that nothing pleased me. That I complained more about nothing than anyone they'd seen. etc, etc. That if I didn't like it, they'd take it out and I could go to someone else. Are you getting the picture?

After they botched my surgery. After they refused to give me another resident when I asked for him. After I just about had a stroke because of a cement they were using. I'm allergic , had anapolactice shock, had to have oxygen, etc. They made nice until I got to this point of no return. I'm 78 if you remember, have very high blood pressure, many other health problems, and am handicapped. After 2 years of this stuff, I end up worse off.

This is really jumping all around. I'm sorry, but I really need some advice on what I can do. I haven't been able to see the Dean of the school for the almost 2 years I've been going there and asking. If I could have gone to another dentist yesterday, I would have. There are so many there, but I know nothing about them. I need someone to look at what's there and tell me if anything else can be done.

I also need to know if he can come in and talk to me as he did. I was so shocked, I couldn't say anything. If I don't agree with what they did, they will just not finish. They can't do that,, can they?

Please answer if you can.

Jon

[Bryanna]

Hi Jon,

The part of the lower jawbone where the front six teeth were is naturally thin, like a pencil. When bone loss occurs, that pencil shape thins out and shrinks down. In other words the entire portion of the lower ridge gets smaller and flattens out. Not just the front or the back of it. The acrylic part of the lower denture (the pink part) is designed to make up for the missing bone which is meant to give the denture more stability. The less bone loss, the less acrylic. The more bone loss, the more acrylic.

With regard to the placement of the lower implants...... dental implants need substantial "healthy" bone to hold them in. Even if bone graft material is used, the site needs to have a certain amount of adequate bone to integrate with the bone graft. The size and shape of the dental implants depends on the size and shape of the bone. So, sometimes the location of the implants is not ideal because there is inadequate bone in the places that would be ideal.

I do remember the hell you went through with the placement of these implants. I have to tell you, I have assisted on hundreds of implant cases and never once has an awake patient ever felt a thing during the surgery. Even post operatively, patients have told me they felt no more than an achey, pressure feeling for the first 2-3 days. I am so sorry you have endured such pain and stress over all of this :-((

I am not sure about the law regarding retribution if you signed paperwork agreeing to their treatment plan. The only recourse that I could think of would be if the work they did was different than what you agreed to. You would need a denitst outside of the school to stand up for you on that.

In some states, a dentist can dismiss a patient in writing after dental work has started ONLY if he can prove his actions of dismissal and refer the patient to another dentist. A dentist cannot dismiss a patient once treatment has started without those two things.

This statement you made has me very concerned ......<<He can and has done things that I couldn't tell about until later. I have no confidence that he won't do something again.>>
What happened?? Did he touch you inappropriately? Was he physically rough with you? It is SO important that you not keep this to yourself. If he did anything even remotely inappropriate to you, you need to make that known to the school officials. Chances are, you are not the only one and his peers may already know about his behavior.

At this point in treatment, I would suggest that you go in for your appointment with a passive but assertive attitude so as to not stir up any further stress for yourself. Let them place the denture and show you how to put it in and remove it. Make sure you are clear on how to use it. Once the denture is in place, do not acknowledge that you are content, unless you really are, and do not sign anything else.

I think if at all possible, it would behoove you to consult with a private practicing dentist after you've gotten your denture. You will need follow up care and you will need to have someone that you can trust.

Jon, I am so sorry for all of this. As I've mentioned earlier on, I have seen the work that comes out of dental schools and the majority of the time, the quality and personal care is questionable. I currently have one patient who had her upper implants placed at a dental school. Her treatment plan called for eight to nine implants, she ended up with thirteen!! That number was definitely was unnecessary, but she didn't know any better and when she questioned it, she was barked at...... like you were.

By the way.. I did think you were a male!! Ha Ha! Not that it matters...~'.'~

Let me know if I explained things ok and please keep us posted on what's going on.

Bryanna

Originally Posted by jon

Thank goodness you got this, Bryanna! Let me get this clear with you. When you spoke about the ridge being too small - you spoke of it being in the back or chewing part of the partial. It's in the very front of the lower teeth that all that ridge that drops down then goes to the inside where the food is going to be trapped. It won't do that in the back. Does this make any difference? They also said that the top of the screw will be a different color- not much, but slightly different.

On the back teeth on each side, there will be one tooth screwed into the implant. That's a total of two. The other three will be spaced along that ridge back of the front teeth. Those screws will not be through the top of the teeth like the back will be. They will be back of the front teeth on that ridge. Am I clear as mud?

My reasoning for its being that way is that they put the front implants in the wrong place - that they should have gone forward of where they are. The surgeon who did these was the one from .ell who wouldn't deaden the gums enough through the 5 hours of surgery, etc. If that were the case, it seems they should have told me at the time about the difference it would make. They all said if was just perfectly done, of course. I complained to them about the thickness in the 'model' from the first. They kept telling me not to worry - that the final one would be completely different . How in the world could it be? Nothing has gotten better.

To answer your question about the stage we're in - I have signed the paper where I agree that the appearance is ok. The teeth in the model that day were movable. After the pros. dean made his godly appearance and declarations - saying they would absolutely do nothing else- take it or leave it, etc., I had no choice but to sign it. Otherwise, I'd be left with just what I've got in my mouth - the implants with the tops - no teeth.

I think it's illegal for a dentist to drop a patient after both have agreed on the work and it's started. As much as I'd like to hit him and the school with a law suit, that wouldn't help me now. Can you imagine how I feel going back to this resident he wouldn't change for me when I asked hime? The resident is the one who caused all this stuff with his poor work. My son in law took me and stayed with me in the room each time because I did not feel safe at all around this man by myself. He can and has done things that I couldn't tell about until later. I have no confidence that he won't do something again.

I'm not an overpowering person nor a mousey person. I treat people as I would like to be treated. Acting is not part of my makeup, but I feel I must have some plan as to how to act when I go back. Any ideas?

I've unsuccessfully tried to reach a nearby dentist to get a second opinion with the possibility of finishing it with him. He's out of the office until Monday, and I left a message about the nature of my call on his phone. I know two people near my age who go to him and like him. Who knows?

I'm female, by the way. Jon comes from initials in my name.

Thanks, Bryanna, and all of your who answered. You have no idea how much it means to me that someone heard me. I'll listen for anything more.

Love to all, Jon

[Bryanna]

Hi NAM,

Jon has had her dental treatment done in a dental school which is very different than seeing a private practitioner. She has been tossed from one student to another in spite of her protests. Unfortunately, things go on in dental schools that outsiders no nothing about. Most private dentists are aware of this and they generally try to discourage a patient from seeking treatment at one of them. But sometimes a patient has certain circumstances that prohibit them from seeking private care so they seek it at the dental school.

I just want to point out that your case is very different than Jon's. Yes, you both were given "questionable" dental care but both of you received different dental procedures. As I stated in my post to her...... I personally know of hundreds of patients who have undergone similar procedures to hers and have not experienced anything like she has.

Seems like the one thing you both have in common is seeking someone legitimately reputable!!

Bryanna

Originally Posted by NAM1

Hi Jon
I can so sympathize w/what you are going thru. Thru personal experience, I have found that a medically challenged patient can become labeled "difficult" when a provider can not properly perform dental wk.
While I can not offer dental advice per se, I can offer these suggestions:
Be the Squeaky Wheel. Don't just go away (as many people do). You have the right tb treated like a human being, regardless of circumstances. Be persistent abt that.
Be clear abt what results you want to have happen.
If you have one in your area, you might consider filing a complaint w/the local Board of Dental Examiners. No guarantees, but it can't hurt to try.
Keep plugging.
I have learned from your post I very likely do not want post implanted dentures or dentures at all. Perhaps you can get something from my post, too...fair warning, it is now @ 5 pgs!
(Thank goodness for Bryanna!)
Hope things wk out for you.
NAM1