It's the most famous question in the world. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Over the past few years I've been wondering something myself that calls for a similar question. Namely it's this: which comes first, the depression or the illness?

I've been through the whole depression routine a few times now. A year after I became ill, I holed up in my bedroom for nearly a year. I wouldn't come out of my room except to go see a doctor. I even ate my meals there. I lost so much weight that my PM put me on meds to increase my weight.

I know there are people who suffer from clinic depression, and that's their sole illness. I have a sister like that. But most of the people who come to this site have another illness, and their depression is secondary to that. There are ones who are lonely, who live in constant pain, who have been abandoned or treated badly because of their condition, or are simply not believed by family or friends.

My doctors are always trying to put me on anti-depressants. But I don't like the way they make me feel. They always argue that depression is a disease, and it needs to be treated. I agree with that, but in my case at least I don't think it can be fixed by a pill.

When I became ill I owned my own successful business, lived in a nice, big house, and could afford things like vacations or having a steak once a week. Since then I've lost the business, lost my ability to pursue the things I love, had my wife ask me to leave, and have had to relearn everything from how to walk to how I ride in a car, because of my constant pain. Isn't it natural that I would feel depressed?

How many others on this site fight with depression because of loneliness or isolation? Or because they feel so guilty for not being able to provide the things they feel they should provide. Or even because they just simply have no one to talk to who will really listen and care? Depression like that needs to be treated by altering one's outlook. By learning how to live again in spite of one's disability. People need something positive to happen in their lives, not a pill which will simply deaden their feelings.

It hasn't been easy, but I've been working hard to rebuild my life. There are times when I fail, or relapse into deep depression for a while, but all in all I am doing so much more than I did a few years ago. But I really believe that the most important way to get past the depression and back into life is to have a person to talk to who you know will honestly care, and who doesn't listen just to be polite. I'm lucky, I guess, because I've had a few friends like that. But not everyone does. And my heart goes out to all of them. Depression is a deep, dark dungeon, and there are many stairs which have to be climbed to reach the sunlight above. But the end is worth it. I just hope that anyone who is sitting at home right now, fighting back tears or feeling empty and lost, will think about this, and put on their boxing gloves. Life is for living, and it is worth living even if you are left with only half of the life you had. Forgive yourself for being ill. It's not your fault, but forgive yourself anyway if you feel guilty or full of blame. I really care about people who feel bad, and I don't make a difference for a toothache, a bad spine, or a deep depression. They all hurt just as bad in their own way.

So I just want all of you to know that I think about this, and you, all the time. I pray for those who feel so bad inside. And I send you all the good luck and very best wishes I can draw from inside me. Love yourself, because others love you, too.

I too wonder about the chicken or the egg theory. I have never had any periods of depression though my life until I was DX with MS. Even going through a divorce, I was not depressed.(Must have been a good thing LOL). Even my first 10 yrs of MS, I continued to work as an RN, and was enjoying my work, my friends, and my family.

Then my disease progressed, and I had to leave work, and am now on SSDI. Depression has hit me hard lately, although I do take an AD. My doc has just incresed my dose. We'll see how that works. When I am in that black hole, I don't leave the house, turn down all invitations, and just vegatate in my PJs all day. I have lost interst in reading, and playing the piano, and just about everything.

I think my MS is responsible for my depression, and I don't want to live like this, so I am a fan of ADs. I'm hoping the increased dosage helps me. I see a psychiatrist on a regular basis, so I have someone to discuss my feelings and anxiety with. I don't like sharing with my family, because it just seems like I have one problem after another. I know depression is a chemical inbalance, but I just feel like I should be able to handle it better. I would like to be more involved with my grandsons than I am right now. I feel guilty!!

I fought ADs for quite awhile myself, but I have in the past seen a difference from them. I'm now hoping for another improvement.Have you tried several different ADs, to see if you can find one that might work? I do believe the illness comes first. Sounds like you have a strong inner spirit, keep up the good fight. I hope you find peace within, and thanks for sharing, and bringing up the ole "Chicken or Egg" theory.

Hi Idealist, I think that a person gets depressed because they haven't learned how to process their feelings. Our development as a child is very important and if we are never taught this or learn it through watching someone else it can affect us immensely. Feelings are natural and helpful. If we are taught to ignore our feelings or stuff them we will become depressed. Our body was not designed to ignore our feelings so it stops the normal functioning of our bodies and makes us sick. So glad that you are learning and getting better.

Thanks for replying, guys. I can see a lot of truth and logic in both of your observations. Bluenurse, I've tried four different ADs, and while other people have told me that they made me seem more normal, they make me feel less normal inside. I have bad dreams and sometimes bad thoughts. Right now I'm taking two ADs simultaneously. One for nerve pain, and one to keep weight on. But I think I'm going to quit taking at least one of them.

Sannah, you made a very good point about processing our feelings. I was raised in the mountains, and as a child I was always taught that children were there to be helpers, not to talk or interrupt adults. I can remember daydreaming a lot about how it would be when I was finally old enough to count as a person.

But let me ask everyone another question. All illness aside, how many of you think that your depression is mainly caused by loneliness. It's no secret that people with chronic illnesses often find themselves alone, and many lack the confidence to believe that anyone could ever love them the way they are now. I'll be the first to admit that this affects me a lot. Does it affect anyone else? And if so, what if anything do you do to try and fix it?

Hi Idealist, this was your development time and you were stunted. Not to worry! You can continue your development as an adult. This is what I did. You can move forward once you understand what is going on with yourself now and where it came from. Once you understand it all you can make repairs.

When I was growing up I felt invisible. No one in my family talked to each other. My mom has all the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and my dad was very shy. My mom was all about herself and she didn't pay much attention to us. Believe me, this isn't good for development! I was quite a mess but I have fixed so much and feel so healthy and alive now. I was quite the miserable child.

When you say that you didn't feel that you counted as a person as a child what this says to me is that you probably felt very insignificant and that you didn't have much value? When my mom ignored me I also got the message that I didn't have much value. Just imagine what this does to self-esteem! I was able to recover my self-esteem by making this connection: I felt I had little value because I wasn't cherished as a child. I wasn't cherished because my mother had mental health issues. This wasn't my fault and it had nothing to do with me so, therefore, this message that I got that I wasn't valuable was not true. If this message that I got wasn't true then I could stop believing it. To make sure that I did change this message I wrote down on a piece of paper "I am valuable and worthy of love". I read this to myself outloud several times a day for about a week until I finally believed it.

Some of this also is related to what I have written above (feeling that you are worthy of love). Social skills are also really important here I think. I was never taught any as a child. Once again I learned so much as an adult. I learned social skills by watching others who were good role models and by reading about the topic. I think that a person also has to feel that they can and should be themselves and freely interact with others. Self-esteem is related here and having healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries are so important. Again, another area where I had a lot of learning to do. Healthy boundaries are where you draw the line around yourself and have rules on how others can treat you. Many of us don't learn this or that we can even tell others no or stand up for ourselves. Sometimes we are afraid to make others angry with us? This might be an approval thing which would be another area to correct?

When you speak about being lonely and how this affects you I really understand. We are social beings and we must feel connected to others and interact. Many of us don't get a good start and find ourselves in not so good of a place but we can relearn this stuff!

Getting emotionally and mentally healthy really is doable.

Sannah, I want to compliment you. You are obviously very intelligent. And you seem to have a knack for pulling the truth out of words. When I was a boy, I once ran away from home. I wrote a note for my parents and left it on thier dresser in their bedroom, I left before dawn, and I was gone until well into the night. I had run away with a friend of mine, and his whole family (and he had a BIG one) started searching for him right away. But they didn't find us until after dark. After that, I decided to go home myself. The funny thing is that when I got there, I expected to either get in a lot of trouble, or have my parents all over me with hugs and relief. Instead I found out that they didn't even know I had run away. They had over-looked the note, and hadn't even missed me. LOL

As far as the loneliness goes, I'm not shy around other people at all. I can walk into a waiting room and end up talking to half the people there. But kind of like the other part, I am deathly afraid of offering any part of my inner self which I think might be rejected. So I'm not very good at finding intimacy at all.

I can tell you've thought a lot about this subject. You're answers are just too good for anything else. Isn't it a shame that we are all such prisoners to our surroundings during the most important years of our lives, those formative years?

Idealist

Hi Idealist, thank you for your kind words. Yes, I have thought a lot about this stuff while I was putting my life back together. I so much want to share everything that I have learned! When your parents didn't notice that you were gone this sounds a bit like I grew up. What you described about being social but not intimate with others, boy do I understand what you are talking about here. They call this fear of intimacy and I had to unravel this one with myself too. I think that it is related to self-worth and healthy boundaries.

Hi again Idealist. I wanted to reply again since when I replied last night I was in a bit of a hurry. Do you see the connection then between how you were treated as a child and how you feel and behave today? Since your parents, for whatever reason, didn't cherish you (and this was due to their problems not due to your true worth and value and what you deserved!) you expect the same from everyone today. This was just something that you have gotten used to and accepted as the truth about yourself but you can question this and change your thoughts about it.

This is a good way to explain this time period and those of us who had to grow up in less than ideal situations. I look back on it now as not such a tradegy because I have escaped its effects and I understand myself and many things in so much more detail now because of it. You can do the same.

Hi

I know what you mean about the loneliness. I have experienced strong fear of loneliness in the past. I had reason to, at the time, but what someone repeated to me until I finally got it, emotionally, is: nothing is forever. Good things like friendships may not be forever, or they may be out of reach for a while but return, someone angry with you is not forever, and thank goodness the bad situations are also not forever.

Also I learned to every day enumerate what/who I am grateful for to have in my life. And to pray to my personal Higher Power. I had to learn to trust and believe in a Higher Power, I was unable to because of having been raised with loads of anti-theistic statements, evidence and sceptic dogma's. But I kept praying and telling myself my HP could and would give me everything I need, regardless of whether I deserve it, because my HP is about mercy and love only. After only a week I got every (reasonable) thing I asked for within a day of asking for it. It was truly flabberghasting. And it kept going on and on. Now, if I want to change something about myself, like a characteristic that leads to unhappiness or loneliness for me, the first thing I do is ask for it in prayer. Then I start looking for solutions, and I am sometimes guided to the oddest places. But the beginning of change is present real soon. Stupid thing though, I keep forgetting to ask. Still in the habit of trying to solve things alone.

You know, what both of you say is very interesting to me from a personal point. Minymo, I too believe in a higher power, although I must confess that I'm still fleshing out exactly what it is I believe. And as I've said, I do have an irrational fear of approaching people intimately. I can talk to them very comfortably, but when the conversation turns to personal subjects, I become uncomfortable very quickly, and back away from them. I suppose my greatest fear is of being ridiculed for something about me which I can't change. My father did that to me for most of my life, not to be mean, but because that was the way which he was raised. I once asked him why he had always been such a hard man, and his answer was that hard times make for hard people.

Sannah, I still feel like you have a pretty firm grasp on how your childhood can not only affect you as an adult, but do it without your realization. I was in my mid-twenties before it ever occurred to me that I was a part of a somewhat disfunctional family. I told my mother about it, and how before then I had just always assumed that our family was the kind which defined all others. Finding out differently was a very revealing revelation.

A lot of what you say is really quite relevant to me. I spent quite a while just thinking about your words, and it led me to a new revelation. I don't see myself as a child and myself as an adult being the same two people. There is my life before eighteen, and my life ever since. I see the younger me as a person that I have read a lot about, and is related to me. In a way I see him as a really long dream I once had. A dream so real it never goes away, but a dream nevertheless. I've always been bothered by the fact that there are long gaps in my memory as a boy. Whole years which I can't remember at all.

My parents were not abusive people, at least in the context of the area where we were raised. They were treated harshly as children, and came to believe that this was how children were raised. Neither of my grandparents ever had any use for me, and I never got to know them at all. But again, when I try to recall what little time I spent with them, it's more like remembering a TV show than something which I was part of. I don't know how realizing this really does me much good. It may have made me the way I am, but the clay has already hardened. I can't do much to reshape it. Right now I am forty-five years old, and history is repeating itself. Because of my illness, everyone who I expected to always be part of my life is turning me away instead. There's nothing I can do about it, and I'm learning to accept it. But if there's an easier way to learn, I would really like to know.

Anyway, I thank you both for really thinking about this, and telling me what you believe. It adds to the introspect I already had, and I'm not the kind of person to ignore another's viewpoint or thoughts. I guess you could say tha I'm pretty malleable most of the time. Thank you again, and I wish you both a lot of happy days and special times.

Idealist