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Old 02-02-2013, 03:54 PM #1
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Default Serratus anterior dysfunction(swimmer's shoulder)

Hi
Im 22 years old male from Estonia. I have high interest in physical activities and physiology. I'm constructing a idea, in a empiristic way, of a ''super human(dr. Manhattan heheh)''. From past to present(about 1 year and 7 months) i have learned areas wich i find the most substantial: hypertrophy(sarcoplasmic, myofibrillar), endurance(cardiovascularity with running no longer distance than 10km), Explosiveness(sprinting, polymetrics) and overall conditioning(swimming, isometrics). I find that each sport is sui generis and very complex, structural. Im giving my best to really improve in those areas but i cant avoid mistakes due to my ignorance and high will power. I feel massive energy boosts wich makes me feel, this is little stupid, unstoppable. I try out new things and I want to see good results without having any wisdom of it. Overall, I think I have made some serious results in areas wich i have improved.
Due to my ignorance I have made mistakes wich gaved me some injuries. I have discopatia(L3-L4, L5-S1 makes me 3cm shorter), pinched nerve(Sciatica). Thats not very big issue to me anymore, im in a path of beating it. The problem why I camed here is because of swimming. I have ''swimmer's shoulder''.I lost neural connection with my left s. a(serratus anterior).
It happened about 7 months ago in summer. I mentioned swimming as one substantial area wich needs improving to be the idea what im constructing. I started swimming butterfly stroke wich i considered to be warm up. When i had experience approx one month, I started to feel some interesting sensations: I couldn't do any bodyweight dips and pull ups(my pulling and pressing power was gone). It scared me a lot. I had no idea what was going on.
My left s. a have less mass than right one. I have not felt any pain, swelling or other similar sensations only disfunction.
I can't post links, so i put pics as attatchments. First pic is left and problematic serratus. Clearly comparing it with right s. a it has less mass and definition. Second pic is completely healthy and strong right s.a. In third pic you will see some differencies in scapula region.
In seven months i have made big progress to activate the problematic one. I think I will reach my previous potential within next 6 months. Ofcourse Im very ignorant and with poor knowledge. Maybe here someone can guide me and recommend some literature, give a advice. Im grateful to any response.
Im also sorry for my linguistic approach, I have poor expression.
Attached Thumbnails
Serratus anterior dysfunction(swimmer's shoulder)-leftserratus-jpg   Serratus anterior dysfunction(swimmer's shoulder)-rightserratus-jpg   Serratus anterior dysfunction(swimmer's shoulder)-backkl-jpg  
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:48 PM #2
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It's a bit hard to get the details from the way you express some of your things but I can perhaps suggest a couple of things for you. I am a competitive para-swimmer but freestyle is my stroke.

The idea of doing butterfly as a warm up stroke is, well, insane!! Its explosive and uses big, powerful muscle movements. You need to rethink your warm up routine I think. You mention your approach to your exercise has been to throw yourself into it and you clearly now realise this isn't the most sensible way to approach a training programme.

You don't have swimmer's shoulder from the problem you have described. Swimmers shoulder doesn't affect the anterior serratis muscles. It causes pain and decreased range of movement in the anterior lateral aspect of the shoulder, head of biceps area and chest muscles. It's normally an overuse condition caused by irritation. Remember also that muscle imbalance is normal - it would be very unusual to have symmetrical muscle mass. I'm not saying there isn't something wrong, just that its not swimmer's shoulder and it would be abnormal to be symetrical.

Its essential that you do two things - go and see a properly qualified and experienced sports physiotherapist for a full evaluation and diagnosis. Then once you have a programme of PT rehab to try and address whatever your issue actually is, get yourself a really good swim coach. A good coach will stop you doing yourself any further damage and can ensure that your swim technique is correct. Swimming is an amazingly technical sport and small issues can become major overuse injuries or trauma later on.

It's really hard to be any more specific but I hope you get it sorted out soon.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:13 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurochic View Post
It's a bit hard to get the details from the way you express some of your things but I can perhaps suggest a couple of things for you. I am a competitive para-swimmer but freestyle is my stroke.

The idea of doing butterfly as a warm up stroke is, well, insane!! Its explosive and uses big, powerful muscle movements. You need to rethink your warm up routine I think. You mention your approach to your exercise has been to throw yourself into it and you clearly now realise this isn't the most sensible way to approach a training programme.

You don't have swimmer's shoulder from the problem you have described. Swimmers shoulder doesn't affect the anterior serratis muscles. It causes pain and decreased range of movement in the anterior lateral aspect of the shoulder, head of biceps area and chest muscles. It's normally an overuse condition caused by irritation. Remember also that muscle imbalance is normal - it would be very unusual to have symmetrical muscle mass. I'm not saying there isn't something wrong, just that its not swimmer's shoulder and it would be abnormal to be symetrical.

Its essential that you do two things - go and see a properly qualified and experienced sports physiotherapist for a full evaluation and diagnosis. Then once you have a programme of PT rehab to try and address whatever your issue actually is, get yourself a really good swim coach. A good coach will stop you doing yourself any further damage and can ensure that your swim technique is correct. Swimming is an amazingly technical sport and small issues can become major overuse injuries or trauma later on.

It's really hard to be any more specific but I hope you get it sorted out soon.
Thank you. Unfortonately I dont have any money to pay to the PT and sports physiotherapist. I have motivation to learn about those areas by myself.
Should i quit swimming? I swim freestyle, back and breast stroke nowdays. When swimming freestyle i still feel little eccentric contraction in my left serratus.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:52 AM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurochic View Post
It's a bit hard to get the details from the way you express some of your things but I can perhaps suggest a couple of things for you. I am a competitive para-swimmer but freestyle is my stroke.

The idea of doing butterfly as a warm up stroke is, well, insane!! Its explosive and uses big, powerful muscle movements. You need to rethink your warm up routine I think. You mention your approach to your exercise has been to throw yourself into it and you clearly now realise this isn't the most sensible way to approach a training programme.

You don't have swimmer's shoulder from the problem you have described. Swimmers shoulder doesn't affect the anterior serratis muscles. It causes pain and decreased range of movement in the anterior lateral aspect of the shoulder, head of biceps area and chest muscles. It's normally an overuse condition caused by irritation. Remember also that muscle imbalance is normal - it would be very unusual to have symmetrical muscle mass. I'm not saying there isn't something wrong, just that its not swimmer's shoulder and it would be abnormal to be symetrical.

Its essential that you do two things - go and see a properly qualified and experienced sports physiotherapist for a full evaluation and diagnosis. Then once you have a programme of PT rehab to try and address whatever your issue actually is, get yourself a really good swim coach. A good coach will stop you doing yourself any further damage and can ensure that your swim technique is correct. Swimming is an amazingly technical sport and small issues can become major overuse injuries or trauma later on.

It's really hard to be any more specific but I hope you get it sorted out soon.
I dont have any money for pts or sports physiotherapist. For free i can get one consultation with orthotist. Also should i quit swimming? now i swim once in a week about 45 minutes. I practise mainly freestyle stroke and a little breast and back stroke.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:56 PM #5
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I honestly can't see what the point is in going to see an orthotist. You need to speak to a sports physio and/or a good swim coach for advice.

I can't say what is wrong (if anything) and, therefore, can't tell you whether continuing to swim is a good idea or not. Sorry, but the Internet has its limitations! Isn't there a swim coach based at the pool where you go swimming who you could speak to (for free) and ask about your injury concerns?

Get a good swimming book or look at swim coaching videos on the Internet if you can't afford to see a coach - it might give you some pointers. Maybe join a proper swim club and get advice there. These things would cost less.

Hope that is a help.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:43 PM #6
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it may be offtopic, but i guess i post my overall health issues here.
My serratus has done big progress so far, im gettin back my pressing power. Personal record was 120kg and atm i press 110kg 3 reps.
But as i said in serratus post, i am very ignorant and sometimes too agressive to my body. I did lat pulldowns with very heavy weight to me 130kg and i got some bad omens at the workout but i avoided them. So i got fibromyalgia. Is it possible to get that with too much nervous tension? My upper body is hypersensitive and i have some blysters on lower abdomen and back area. Any advise about how long it takes to heal some things i have to consider?
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:57 PM #7
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I think some of the words you are using to describe what you think is going on might have gone wrong in translation so its hard to provide any suggestions.

If, as you say, you are aware that you are too aggressive with your body and are "very ignorant" then the best advice is to be more sensible and educate yourself!! Seriously, don't do this stuff when you know that the weights are too heavy and you are likely to damage yourself, its just stupid to do that to yourself.

I can't see how you can get fibromyalgia from doing some lat pull downs with weights that are too heavy. Its not that kind of a medical condition. If you still can't afford to see a sports physio or a good trainer then its hard to advise. its impossible to suggest what is wrong other than to consider the obvious which is muscle or other soft tissue strain.

You need to learn to change the way you train because it isn't working and you are injuring yourself.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:10 PM #8
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if i did not get it from training then what kind of things causes fibromyalgia? I can assosiate it with only training and by overloading my ns. The lat pulldowns did not caused this by itself. I concentrated to train my ns multiple weeks by now and maxed out twice in a week for one muscle group.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:10 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modus View Post
if i did not get it from training then what kind of things causes fibromyalgia? I can assosiate it with only training and by overloading my ns. The lat pulldowns did not caused this by itself. I concentrated to train my ns multiple weeks by now and maxed out twice in a week for one muscle group.
I don't know what you mean by "ns" or training your "ns". The cause or causes of fibromyalgia are not known to medical research. You will see that if you do some research into the condition from reputable sources. It can't be self-diagnosed - it is far too complex for you to do it yourself. You would need to see at least one, maybe more, specialist medical consultant(s) who would perform extensive testing to rule out/in countless other conditions or problems that can be similar. Have you been formally diagnosed with the condition by a specialist doctor?

Just training the same muscle group twice in a week, even lifting the maximum amount you can, would not cause fibromyalgia. You may just be overtraining or have a weightlifting/training programme which is unsuitable. That alone can cause pain, fatigue, stress on your immune system and all sorts of other physical issues. I honestly think you will keep having problems if you don't get some specialist assistance with your training to help you identify your training goals/outcomes and the most appropriate way to work towards these.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:48 PM #10
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Im sorry, with ns i mean nervous system.
I did some research and i found that i might have herpes zoster. Today i went to a doc and yes i have herpes zoster. I dont know how i got this but i've been in some emotional stress lately and that with high physical activity may helped to trigger it.
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