Hello - I have been reading various posts on Methyl B-12. I do not have a deficiency. I do have severe DPN. Is this something that could be useful regardless of whether there is a deficiency? 1000 mcg or 5000 mcg daily?
Is it safe to take with prescription meds?

Thanks!

Cheryl

Well, thanks to Curious I was able to see your fingernails quite clearly.

Yes, you don't have moons on any fingers but your thumbs, except maybe there was the tiniest one on another finger, it was hard to tell, and is hard to tell even in real life.

My moons will be coming back, then if there is a lot of stress they will disappear again. (Right now mine are not flourishing.)

The other thing I notice in your images, is the very bright/dark coloring at the top of your nails... My nails were very much like that when I had the intense fatigue and pretty intense pain in my left arm.

Sadly I did a bad job of showing the changes because a part of that time I didn't have electric and it was really hard to charge my camera or use my computer.

But, when I look at my nails now, they are no longer like that, so I think all the additional rest and B12 helped. I'm not having the pain in my left arm any more, nor is my chin feeling as if it is cramping.

If you can rest, seriously rest, like stay in bed and read or watch telly, I think it would be best if you do that as well as supplement.

I sure hope you post that you are feeling better.

I just went back to your images, looking at them the way that Curious suggested, and I see that you do have ridges. Your ridges aren't as bad as mine were when I first began to wonder if they had something to do with how bad I was feeling, both physically and psychologically.

I'm worried about your chest pain. When I had that I went to the doctor several times, and they did heart tests that showed nothing wrong.

I know that being scared tends to make our hearts pound harder. But the thing is that even former President Clinton had all sorts of heart tests done, that presumably showed nothing, just before he had the major episode that resulted in heart surgery. So I'm not sure the tests are altogether useful.

I would say you had better rest, though. It took my problems like that quite a long time to go away this summer. I sure wish I'd had electric and had recorded pictures of my nails the whole time.

The B12 question is a difficult one I reckon.
I hope you will bear with me whilst I meander thru these thoughts of mine:
Firstly it seems (at least here in Ozzy Land) that unless you actually meet the said criteria.... given by the medics and government for a specific ailment/disease/disorder, then you are NOT sick and are probably a hypochondriac. So if you get a blood test done say for B12 and Folate and the test results come back in the 'normal range' - whatever happens to be the normal range for your country, then you obviously do not have a deficiency or a problem with either B12 or Folate..... end of subject! 'go home after you sign the medicare form'.... byeeeeeeeee

I have gently twisted my GP's arm and asked for blood tests for Homocystein (?spelling) and Methylmalonic acid (MMA) as I have read extensively that these two are better markers for B12 insufficiency. My Gp humoured me and ordered the tests, but did advise me that I would probably have to pay for them myself as the government did not consider them essential or necessary. Time will tell if I receive an account and have to pay privately for them, so be it as I WANT the numbers for reference.

As of today - six days since the blood draw, the test results are not yet back - I was told that Hcy takes about a week to come back. I have a GP appointment booked for tomorrow.... fingers crossed results available for discussion.

Now for some background on your's truly:

I have been sick for seven years, probbably much longer.
In 2000 I was bitten by a necrotic spider........ no action taken other than to debride the bite area and allow it to heal. My Darling Hubbie tends to want to place/blame my down turn in health to this point in time.

I however, with the wonderful gift of hindsight, and the amazing resources of the internet have discovered much written about the Proton Pump Inhibitor's (PPI's), stomach acid insufficiency and B12 deficiency. There is also the question of wether PPI's damage the Paretial cells in the stomach endangering the production of Intrinsic Factor (IF).

Having said all that....... let me put this in context.

I had an ulcer in the stomack back in the mid 1980's .... long before they were talking about Helicobacter pylori bacterium. I cannot remember what the Doc prescribed but I took it for a considerable time. However since that time - OVER 20 years now.... off and on ..... MORE ON than off, I have been taking medications to reduce stomach acid. I do also have a small hiatial hernia.

For at least 6 years I have been taking a drug called SOMAC. I have tried umpteen times over the years to come off this drug without success. A few days without taking it and the acid is rising nastily in my esophagus.

Me feels that perhaps I am deplete in B12 because of the years I have been TAKING ACID REDUCING MEDICATIONS. Seems a feasable proposition to me. But who am I to make discerning statements like this?

Doc's just hate it when you point things like this out to them!

Wish me luck coz I am going to attempt to show this to my GP tomorrow. Hopefully the blood work results will be back and will be available to back up my hypothesis.

There is so much more I could write but it would not be fair to publish a book on my health problems here, when I am such a new member. I will write more as time progresses. The symptoms are nasty and progressive BUT not yet diagnosed..... 'would you like to see a psychiatrist' I was asked at my last neuroligists appointment!

Thank you for replying to my inquiry.

Have a Great Day

McHarris aka Clare in Tassie

while doing my online reading and research today I came across an article on the MERCOLA site which maybe of benefit to people looking for understanding of the process involved with testing for B12 deficiency.............

I have NO commercial interest in this site

http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/28/vitamin_b-12.htm

Just thought to pass this along for your information

See Ya later, Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

Hi Clare,
Nice to hear from you.

The marked decline is indeed marked. Did you have a lot of stress to deal with? I think it's useful to get an idea of what might cause something like that.

Pernicious anemia is a condition where your body no longer makes or has intrinsic factor which is needed to use B12. It's pretty rare these days. Some B12 researchers theorize that lack of intrinsic factor is a condition that develops after a significant periood of low B12.

It is very common however to have other problems which lead to low B12 and those problems are commonly called B12 malabsorption illness.

Are you taking a multi with the other B vitamins? or a mega B to supply them?

The B vitamins really are a "complex" and need to be taken together. If not, then too much of one can cause a reaction in one of the others because it is low low in relation to the others... I realize that your overall B12 is low, but if your B12 test is in the 300s after all the injections... or did you only begin injecting after your blood was drawn for the test? it would appear to have been even very low at one point.

I have on my site an excellent article about how the low in Japan and some other countries is 550. So on that scale your B12 results would not have been normal in either month.

B12 must build up and be stored in quantities necessary for years of use. If not, the patient will decline terribly, either very slowly or rapidly.

It is not toxic, so there is no need to worry about it becoming a problem. What the body doesn't want to store or use it flushes out in the urine. B12 is used very slowly, but it can be built up pretty quickly.

Some other water soluable vitamins can build up. B6 for instance.

The doc almost surely is confusing megaloblastic anemia with "pernicious anemia." Megaloblastic anemia may not be present when one has "pernicious anemia," even in some cases in which the patient is being severely damaged by B12 deficiency. Until the intrinsic factor test, the doc hasn't begun to rule out pernicious anemia.

Pernicious anemia is not an anemia, and it is not an inability to use B12, it is an inability to absorb it normally.

When IF is not present (pernicious anemia), the patient must either have shots, take very large doses orally--1000 - 2000 mcg is the standard dose, or use some other method such as nasal (more difficult and expensive than oral).

Once the B12 is absorbed, it can be used just fine unless some other condition exists (that would be rare).

Pernicious is not rare. Malabsorption due to lack of sufficient stomach acid is far more common, and that sometimes progresses to the lack also of IF.

There is no worry about imbalance with B12 in relation to the other B vitamins. But, if you do not have one or more of the others in sufficient quantities, that can be a problem. And generally there should be a balance of the others, so a B complex is a good idea, in addition to the extra B12 at a different time of day.

Mercola has a lot of fabulous information, but he's not too hot on the B12. In fact, it looks like he didn't catch the fact that high MMA indicates either B12 deficiency or kidney problem, not low MMA as is suggested by the article.

Please remember that MMA does not increase in all cases of B12 deficiency, and when one takes B12 the MMA that is high can come down quickly so if it is tested after B12 has been taken it can be misleading.

They don't want to be responsible for you being on the cutting edge. The fact that they say eight a day shows that they are out front of most.

rose

Pernicious anemia is not the same as B12 malabsorption illness.

Pernicious anemia is a lack of intrinsic factor in the gastrointestinal system and that means that if a person with pernicious anemia eats the same foods containing B12 as a person who does not have pernicous anemia, the person with pernicious anemia will not get the benefit of the B12.

Our bodies need intrinsic factor in order to get benefit from the B12 we ingest. We can eat eggs and not use the B12 in them without intrinsic factor.

Hence the brilliance of sublinguals which bypass the gastrointestinal system.

Anemia is a medical word indicating a change in the blood,
The fact is that not everyone with low B12 has anemia, but many do.

So it is as harmful to people to say anemia must be a feature of a B12 deficiency, as it is to say that it is not a feature of B12 deficiency.

If someone has enlarged blood cells, and those cells are not carrying enough oxygen, and the person is feeling abnormally tired, then the person deserves to have their blood looked at both for signs of anemia and low B12.

Pernicious anemia is not the same as "B12 malabsorption illess." As I explained above, pernicious anemia is lack of intrinsic factor.

Many more people have intrinsic factor but have lost the ability to produce sufficient stomach acid----thus a condition some call B12 malabsorption illness.

Both people will not benefit from foods containing B12, unless they eat huge quantities of liver daily or food fortified with B12 supplement. The person who lacks intrinsic factor won't even get any B12 from the fortified food.

We need sufficient stomach acid to break the B12 out of the eggs. Then we need intrinsic factor to accompany the B12 from stomach to ileum. Neither of these people will get any B12 out of the eggs.

It was learned about 40 years ago that people who lack intrinsic factor can absorb enough B12 by default for treatment, if their oral doses are over 1000 mcg per day. This was swallowed B12. The dose is the important thing.

Of course anemia is a condition of the blood. It is important that more doctors become aware that many people being damaged by B12 deficiency will not show any sign of anemia.

Of course it is harmful to say that anemia must be present when a person is deficient in B12. That is why I have been pounding away at this myth for years. People need to know, because most of their doctors don't.

rose

Thanks for replying again.
I am taking 1 x day multi B

I did NOT begin self using B12 until after I had the blood draw so what is reflected in the test results was ACCURATE for that point in time.

What is interesting .... a slightly off topic, but highly appropriate me thinks:

I am prescribed 5mg Folic Acid by my GP 1 x daily
This was suggested to the GP by the hospital dietician as a possible means to lower my homocystein (which by the way was never measured UNTILL I asked for it last week) but it was posited that if my cholesterol was high... which it is according to docs here (thats another topic all together) then high cholesterol = high homocystein because of inflammation.......

The point being they have never really checked my folate levels properly recently, so I have stopped the 5mg tablets and will ask for a test for folate before I go back onto them.

Will write more soon

Cheer's from Clare in Tassie

I contacted someone in the health / body building industry who has told me that vetinary B12 (horses etc) is safe for humans to use. I was looking for a supply / bottle that held more than one dose. I am going to look into this...... may not need it as I now have the sublinguals, but tiz good to know and I do enjoy research.


Regarding stomach acid

I have tried stopping the somac
I have tried drinking Braggs Vinegar to increase stomach acid naturally - thus assisting digestion.

BOTH of these made me VERY ILL

I cannot get off the pills much as I have tried.

Currently most evenings I find I am back to needing to drink a small glass of bicarbonate of soda (in water) to get myself comfortable to go to sleep, otherwise I have stomach acid seemingly rising into my esophagus. Arghhhh another thing to discuss with the GP - one of these days!

Cheer's again Clare in Tassie