I agree.

Hence, I made another massive insurance payment about 2 hours ago.

Vic's question was with regard to living off the "public dollar"?

I don't understand the American system, but this is what I found on the internet:

"Medicare is a social insurance program administered by the United States government, providing health insurance coverage to people who are either age 65 and over, or who meet other special criteria."

"In general, individuals are eligible for Medicare if they are a U.S. citizen or have been a permanent legal resident for 5 continuous years, and they are 65 years or older, or they are under 65, disabled and have been receiving either Social Security (Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI)) or the Railroad Retirement Board disability benefits for at least 24 months, or they get continuing dialysis for permanent kidney failure or need a kidney transplant, or they are eligible for Social Security (disability) and have Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS-Lou Gehrig's disease)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicar...ited_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_...ited_States%29

Social Insurance is defined as:

Social insurance is any government-sponsored program with the following four characteristics:

- the benefits, eligibility requirements and other aspects of the program are defined by statute;
- explicit provision is made to account for the income and expenses (often through a trust fund);
- it is funded by taxes or premiums paid by (or on behalf of) participants (although additional sources of funding may be provided as well); and
- the program serves a defined population, and participation is either compulsory or the program is heavily enough subsidized that most eligible individuals choose to participate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_insurance

This seems to imply that a person needs to be deemed disabled, and receiving SS benefits of some sort.

Vic, I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about, or if it is Medicaid . . .?

"Medicaid is the United States health program for individuals and families with low incomes and resources. Among the groups of people served by Medicaid are eligible low-income parents, children, seniors, and people with disabilities. Being poor, or even very poor, does not necessarily qualify an individual for Medicaid.[2] Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with limited income."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

If it is Medicare you are thinking about, which means you have been deemed "disabled", it doesn't seem to matter how much money you have in assets. Unless of course they get you from that angle when you apply for SS . . .?

Cherie

Cherie,

The main ethical issue on which I am focusing is one wherein a person with financial means to pay for insurance is allowed to obtain governmental assistance regardless of need. The question is this: Is it ethical for said person to do such a thing even if it is legal?

In my opinion it is not ethical, though it can be legal.

Taking what is not needed only removes resources that should be left for those who really need them.

Here is what drove me to this topic, and it was not so much how much I have to pay for insurance: I have two very wealthy clients, one of which takes everything available to him from the government, while the other refuses any of these additional dollars and services. They both had a long discussion over this issue when we were all having dinner, and the system "abuser" called me an idiot for not utilizing the governmental services, while the other client told me to do what my heart tells me to do.

Sure, I pay over 35K/year for medical costs, and I could reduce them to only a fraction if I took governmental assistance. But my question is this: Is it ethical? I think not. Actually, the 25 of us noted in the original post are in agreement, as we could all legally hide our assets and qualify for every governmental program available. But what would the true cost be? It would impact the resource pool for those in need (the 12 folks I noted in my first post) as well as many others.

I could not sleep at night if I did that,..., unless there was an absolute need. One day that may come, for for now it is no the case.

I wonder how many would take the assistance even though they are sound financially?

-Vic

As a quick side note, I was awarded a significant amount based on DoD work several months ago...but that was expected, earned, and would have been sent no matter what.

A whole lot of rich people take SS at 65 and Medicare..

JFK did not take his salary as President.

JFK was great!

Vic --

Although I agree that there are some ethics involved in legally hiding assets, accepting Medicare, which is not an asset-based government program, does not seem to me to be a related issue.

~ Faith

I would say there are a lot of ways to define *financial means*.

A person may have enough in the checking account to cut a check for this month's insurance premium, but what about the long haul?

If those monthly premiums and co-pays are going to put a strain on the family budget to the point where they put the future (and I'm thinking into retirement) financial well-being at risk, that needs to be taken into account as well.

Not all familes are doing such a hot job of forecasting their regular income vs outgoing monetary needs - even short term. Some going to be up a creek 10 and 20 years down the road with out major health problems.


I say don't let ethics ruin your life. If you need help, take it. That's what it's there for.

I agree with you Vic and I have a sense of pride in being able to take care of myself and my family for now. Like you said the day may come but for now I will gladly fork out the $12,000 a year for my health insurance premium. Being able to look at myself in the mirror and sleep at night are priceless.

What I am really confused about is why people keep bringing up Medicare? Isn't Medicaid the one for disabled people?

No Medicare is for the disabled and people 65 and over. Medicaid is for people who meet a certain requirement with assets/income etc. Medicare is a payroll tax that most of us pay.

Unless one is very wealthy when you are 65 and over or disabled, it's going to be so hard to predict how much money you need, that it's a hard thing to say we can care for ourselves because there are so many unknowns on what the future brings especially once one is not working and on a fixed income. So I would think this doesn't apply to much of the population. When I become disabled or 65,I won't have enough money to know for sure I can always pay for my health insurance and everything else I need.

As far as hiding assets to illegally obtain help, I agree it is wrong.