You both have valuable opinions to add to a valuable discussion

I hope you will all benefit from this thread as you reflect on and share information and experience with others, whose opinions are equally valuable

This is the essential purpose of these forums....to exchange information and experience..... and we need more in depth discussions like this one, where everyone can feel comfortable about sharing their view, whether philosophical or experiential, without there being any concern at a negative response on a personal level. Debate is healthy and encouraged, and disagreement is an essential element in intelligent discourse, but you are all able to do so with civility and respect.

I look forward to seeing this conversation resume...it IS an important one

they help the undecided make up their minds.

Vicki and Radioguy;

The important thing to me is you both would be at the front of the line to help the other one if they ever needed help.
We all have respect for each other's views. WE are ALL guilty of getting caught up in the discussion at times.

It is important to remember that we are all brothers and sisters here. That is the only cogent fact in the final analysis.

Charlie

With an election just ahead, it's going to become a big issue again. There will likely be another vote in the senate sometime soon, and if vetoed again with no override, it will continue on to the 2008 elections.

I feel that the biggest problem with conversations like these (and they have come a long way - i can remember a time when a comment from the Christian perspective would have been booed off the forum) - is that we categorize people and have of course become polarized and hostile toward each other in our society.

In reality, there are many people who are in favor of stem cell research and still call themselves conservative and vice versa. There are many people of faith, who are either in favor of it, or face indecision and reservations. One can only be true to themselves and feel as they do.

Assuming people who are in favor of stem cell research are aetheists, which Vicky has clearly stated was a mistake to do and I don't use this for anything but an example. is not unusual because of how we feel we have to cast our lots for either one entire socio-political view or another - package style.

There are many independents out there, who do not and will not be categorized.

One thing that does worry me, tho, is the race for profits if the law changes on this research. As I have been for quite some time, I 'm very concerned that researchers will become engrossed in cell therapy research and come up with nothing less for people like us who need something now.... Like pump delivery systems to carry us over.

Paula

Awwwwww, you guys!

I'm grillin' steaks this afternoon.

Who's comin' over?

Corn on the cob, too! Plenty for EVERYONE!!!

But back to the conversation --

I don't know if there IS a miracle to be found in embryonic stem cell research. I do agree, however, with Story Landis at NINDS that we will NEVER know what's behind the door if we're not allowed to OPEN the durn thing.

People of faith have every right to believe whatever they care to believe. And if folks who are against embryonic stem cell research are ALSO against in vitro fertilization, then I give their POV a lot more credibility. If the same folks who want to stymie the research were ALSO pushing for laws against the incineration of the unwanted blastocysts after a couple has a successful in vitro fertilization procedure, then I also give THAT person credit.

But to stand in the way of using these discarded cells -- and that's what they are, cells -- not cute, cuddly, bouncy little babies -- and NOT say anything against the fact that these cells are going to be destroyed ANYWAY strikes me as disingenuous.

The disposition of these cells should be entirely up to the family. And stem cell research SHOULD be one of the options available to them.

Of course, if your argument is that life begins at the moment sperm meets egg, then I suppose there really isn't room for discussion on this. But, if that's your opinion -- that's YOUR opinion.

The vast majority of Americans see the potential here. When we have leaders that aren't obliged to a right wing evangelical base of support, then hopefully we will see some progress.

I can only add that I feel the same way as Radioguy - and he writes much more eloquently than I would on the topic.

However, I must say that I don't understand how In-vitro fertilization can be supported - where many many excess cells are created - but the use of the unused cells for embryonic stem cell research is not supported.

Why is it ok to create excess embryos and then destroy the ones not used? Why is cell destruction ok but cell donation for research not ok? Just rhetorical questions.

(This is not directed at anyone on this board!) Just my thoughts in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_IJyt4IiQ

I'm new to this site and will use it to seek information, examples of personal courage and resilence as others walk this path with me.



To those who have information, courage, resilence - my e-mail is open, please call me Kathleen.

Because we are a world filled with the thought that we are the best of all. You in the states and us in canada are no exception.

Hell it is not long ago we let go of the death penalty. Then we send troops to Afganistan. Not to be killers of course just to kill or be killed, see the difference, I don't.

A short time ago we watched Sadam being hung on television. Good show eh. Not many spoke of what this did to our kids who saw it.

All of our news especially CNN is occupied at showing the killings all over the world of anyone who is caught on film. Good shows eh. Up to the minute blood guts and gore all the better.

Try the other networks and then sit back in your living room and watch the faces of either your own or others kids and see what they express in their faces.

They don't even blink at whatever gross event unfolds before them. It's only makebellive and they know it but it is not the end of it.

It is only when the TV show becomes reality and then watch the kids. They run from all directions to kneel and lay flowers on any pole where there was an accident as a memorial and they visit and weep and get their pictures taken to remember by and then go where ever they were headed for in the first place.

They live in their make believe worlds now. Did they make television or did television make them.

Why do we believe all of the face to face lies that are being told to us today by our government officials. Is it because we are the ones who are face to face. they are on television screens. There not talking to anyone in person but to millions of people and especially to those who will either believe them or are already on their sides.

So then why should anyone care about the unused babies waiting for parents in the test tubes of the nation. Hell there not on tv. If it was imortant it would be on the best television news station of them all with the very best reporters of them all. You know of whom I talk.

Anyone under the age of say 35 to day really doesn't care. You can't get a conversation going no matter what the topic is and hold them unless of course it is a subject that they have formed opinions on and to try and change or even influence that opinion you have to quote those [names] that share your belief.

Even here we don't tell much about ourselves and when others take the time to try and understand where we are coming from they had better be right or else.

I am often missundestood as I hate to type but love to talk. I have had numerous emails asking me to explain and while I answer some most I don't and put it on site for where there is one there probably can be others who don't know me.

But that is my fault and mine alone. Not the fault of the other person. We are all getting too close and yet trying to remain aloof from the forum in order not to be one of those people who are constantly on writing about one thing or another. Not me lol

We need all of those who come here to read and then leave without as much as a hello to stay around and help fill in our blanks.

I guess if we are good enough to read we are good enough to talk to lol lol

What was thils rant all about I have lost the gist of it.

Must be getting old.............................................

I believe your rant was about the generation gap Thelma. I hope it felt good - that's what they are for. It felt like a vent just reading it. I won't argue with any of it.

Kathleen, after going to youtube and seeing you I realize I met you at PAN. I believe you checked your email on my computer and we talked some.

Welcome to Neuro Talk - best PD message board on the Internet. Not that others aren't outstanding too.

Kathleen, you didn't strike me as shy...I know you are sincere....nice to have you here.

paula

Ah, a fellow PAN person.

A quick follow-up to my Washington DC experience....and a personal reminder of how quickly one (I) can go from empowered to vulnerable.

The hotel had debited my account $1000, the person who tried to fix-it doubled the debit --- I was out $2000 that I didn't (and don't have).

My train was to leave at 4:05 PM --- it seemed that the hotel admins. thought that I would simply give in, take the train home, and try and fight the problem long distance.

While I did not feel particularily well, I wasn't ready to walk away. 3 1/2 hours .... several faxes from my bank, and a missed train.....the hotel reversed the charges correctly.

The hotel also provided a room for the extra night I had to stay in DC.

This experience has left me troubled and good and mad --- and also focused on the fact that we (the PD community) do not have the time to break-up into fractions .....for if we do (pro-life, pro-stem cell, pro/anti ...) we will be picked off one-by-one - in the profound issues of wealth/proverty; housing/homelessness, health insurance/uninsured, accessible transportation/isolation.

womb to tomb --- honor all of our lives

Our efforts for recognition of our lives and our right to be free and fully human are intimately connected with others who suffer injustice and who struggle for fairness and human dignity. Suzanne Pharr

Kathleen what a bad experience. No one was satisfied with the hotel this year; I don't think we will be going back there. It sounds like such a spoiled complaint now, but you had to be there...

I wouldn't have been able to cover that either. Outrageous. Between that and the weather, you must have had a very frustrating day. It was a long one for everyone, but yours in particular, was unacceptable.

You'll soon learn that we each have our "pet" activism issues - it's a nice mix, and lots of go 'forth and discover'.

The employees of the hotel were still learning I think, including English.

it'll get better,
paula