Parkinson's Disease Tulip


advertisement
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-18-2015, 10:47 PM #1
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Default The 2 P's

Paradoxical kinesia
Placebo effect

Anyone point me towards any papers on either of these 2P's please.
Or experience of/theories on. Such as why the Placebo effect is so pronounced in Parkinson's.
It seems strange when we have 2 provable examples of instances where there is a significant improvement in symptoms,albeit temporarily,without treatment that there is so little research.

Nigel
Niggs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote

advertisement
Old 09-18-2015, 11:13 PM #2
kiwi33's Avatar
kiwi33 kiwi33 is offline
Grand Magnate
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Posts: 3,093
8 yr Member
kiwi33 kiwi33 is offline
Grand Magnate
kiwi33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Posts: 3,093
8 yr Member
Default

"Paradoxical kinesia"
This is the most recent free-access (though technical) paper about this that I can find; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4540447/ .
__________________
Knowledge is power.
kiwi33 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 09-19-2015, 03:40 AM #3
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi33 View Post
"Paradoxical kinesia"
This is the most recent free-access (though technical) paper about this that I can find; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4540447/ .
Cheers, just what I was after, touches on motivational stimuli also. I find if I'm struggling to get up giving myself a 3,2,1 countdown helps.....very odd . Which neurotransmitters and neural pathways are involved needs to be determined.

Nigel
Niggs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 09-19-2015, 07:28 PM #4
johnt johnt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stafford, UK
Posts: 1,059
15 yr Member
johnt johnt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stafford, UK
Posts: 1,059
15 yr Member
Default

This is a big area. One in which PwP are well able to add to the research effort.

It seems to me that a placebo should be a first class citizen of the medical armoury even if it works only for some people and for a limited period of time.

We need to differentiate between placebos which give a purely perceived advantage and those which give an objectively measurable one.

We also need to differentiate between pure placebos - things which have no true therapeutic effect on PD - and those substances (e.g. chocolate) and actions (e.g. flashing lights) whose effect may be both truly therapeutic as well as due to the placebo effect. I call these "therebos" (from THERapy and placEBO).

The task ahead is to discover therebos, to measure their effectiveness, to engineer them to improve their efficacy and to nurture them.

John
__________________
Born 1955. Diagnosed PD 2005.
Meds 2010-Nov 2016: Stalevo(75 mg) x 4, ropinirole xl 16 mg, rasagiline 1 mg
Current meds: Stalevo(75 mg) x 5, ropinirole xl 8 mg, rasagiline 1 mg
johnt is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
dilmar (10-07-2015)
Old 09-19-2015, 11:19 PM #5
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnt View Post
This is a big area. One in which PwP are well able to add to the research effort.

It seems to me that a placebo should be a first class citizen of the medical armoury even if it works only for some people and for a limited period of time.

We need to differentiate between placebos which give a purely perceived advantage and those which give an objectively measurable one.

We also need to differentiate between pure placebos - things which have no true therapeutic effect on PD - and those substances (e.g. chocolate) and actions (e.g. flashing lights) whose effect may be both truly therapeutic as well as due to the placebo effect. I call these "therebos" (from THERapy and placEBO).

The task ahead is to discover therebos, to measure their effectiveness, to engineer them to improve their efficacy and to nurture them.

John
I was hoping for your input John, Im intrigued by 'therebos', a while back I came across a article which reported an experiment where placebo DBS operations were carried out.. The subjects having the mock op displayed improvement in line with those who actually had surgery.
Given the usual "does'nt work for everyone" problem that plagues the PD world
I wonder if some of our existing treatments are actually Therebos.

Nigel
Niggs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 09-20-2015, 08:26 PM #6
Tupelo3 Tupelo3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 832
10 yr Member
Tupelo3 Tupelo3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 832
10 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niggs View Post
Paradoxical kinesia
Placebo effect

. Such as why the Placebo effect is so pronounced in Parkinson's.
It seems strange when we have 2 provable examples of instances where there is a significant improvement in symptoms,albeit temporarily,without treatment that there is so little research.
Nigel
You may be interested in an article I posted a year or so ago:

Some practitioners dismiss the placebo effect as irrelevant. Others blame it on neurosis. But scientists are increasingly recognizing the placebo response as an authentic neurochemical reaction in the brain. In the past decade, imaging studies have opened up the possibility that scientists will soon understand the mysterious phenomenon and even harness it in clinical practice — unleashing the power of, well, nothing. The new evidence has established that placebos trigger the brain’s “internal pharmacy” — in essence, a warehouse perpetually stocked to deliver active drugs to itself. In addition to improving Parkinson’s symptoms, that same inner pharmacy can affect conditions like pain, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, anxiety, schizophrenia and more. As the placebo effect emerges from a long history in the shadows, the new question is: How can we use this age-old brain trick to our advantage? or as long as medicine has existed, the placebo effect has been quietly playing a role in treatment.



http://www.erikvance.com/why-nothing-works/
Tupelo3 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
Algonkian (07-22-2016)
Old 09-21-2015, 03:41 AM #7
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Niggs Niggs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Guiseley,West Yorkshire,England
Posts: 165
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupelo3 View Post
You may be interested in an article I posted a year or so ago:

Some practitioners dismiss the placebo effect as irrelevant. Others blame it on neurosis. But scientists are increasingly recognizing the placebo response as an authentic neurochemical reaction in the brain. In the past decade, imaging studies have opened up the possibility that scientists will soon understand the mysterious phenomenon and even harness it in clinical practice — unleashing the power of, well, nothing. The new evidence has established that placebos trigger the brain’s “internal pharmacy” — in essence, a warehouse perpetually stocked to deliver active drugs to itself. In addition to improving Parkinson’s symptoms, that same inner pharmacy can affect conditions like pain, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, anxiety, schizophrenia and more. As the placebo effect emerges from a long history in the shadows, the new question is: How can we use this age-old brain trick to our advantage? or as long as medicine has existed, the placebo effect has been quietly playing a role in treatment.



http://www.erikvance.com/why-nothing-works/
Excellent,many thanks

Nigel
Niggs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 07:35 AM #8
bigguyclyde bigguyclyde is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 18
10 yr Member
bigguyclyde bigguyclyde is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 18
10 yr Member
Default

There are many examples of Kinesia paradoxa shown on youtube videos. For example, the man from the Netherlands who could not walk but did quite well riding a bike or the American who could walk well on his hands but not his feet.

My theory is that Parkinson's acts like a slow moving "infection" in the brain. First it starts in one location and then moves on to other regions.

To me it only makes sense that Parkinson's starts to affect those parts of the brain that enable us to do the things that most humans can do without any thought, for example, walking. At the same time it has yet to affect those parts of the brain that require more mental effort such as biking, singing, dancing, or skating.

I don't think that the phenomenon of Kinesia paradoxa is explained by either the limbic system response or neuroplasticity.
bigguyclyde is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
Niggs (09-21-2015)
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 PM.

Powered by vBulletin • Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.7.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
 

NeuroTalk Forums

Helping support those with neurological and related conditions.

 

The material on this site is for informational purposes only,
and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment
provided by a qualified health care provider.


Always consult your doctor before trying anything you read here.