Paula, Greg & Carey,

Each of your posts help me understand just a tad more each time. I think Carey said it best, though ...

The choice should be up to the parents or creators of that life - if they can now choose for them to be flushed away, they should also be allowed to choose research.

As long as that statement doesn't affect me, and isn't dangerous to others, I don't have the right to push my beliefs on others.

This is different than, say, allowing marijuana to become legalized. All it would take is a few accidents that involves the loss of life for it to impact me.

Personally, I am against it ... but, like Guy I'm not sure that I would have the needed willpower to turn down a cure if it came to that which was (or currently is) due to embryonic stem cells.

Paula, the question FOR ME (not everyone else) is not if it's legal or not ... it's that I choose to put my beliefs over science ... legal or not.

I equate this argument to yet another passionate cause of mine (socialized medicine). Until someone experiences it, truly experiences it, please don't think it's the answer to our system. Is our health care lacking in areas ... absolutely and positively. I am not saying that our system is without problems, but if someone thinks that the problem will go away with socialized medicine, they better think twice and contact me! LOL

Moderators, thanks for allowing these type of discussions. Most of us are pretty passionate about our beliefs, and it will take only one bad apple to spoil it for the rest of us. But most of us enjoy these discussions. It helps us to:

1) Better get to know one another,
2) Have something else to focus on other than the mundane
3) Use those brain cells for a cause that we believe in
4) Sharpen our thinking process ... and (drum roll please)
5) HAVE A LIFE!!!

Greg, I also appreciate your clarification. I can see how you debate things back and forth, trying to process all of the information. Are you an engineer by chance?!!

Again thanks for the responses. Two heads are always better than one and it helps me, at least, explore both sides of the coin. I don't want any of this rammed down my throat, but a healthy debate is wonderful.

Have a wonderful Sunday everyone ...

((((((Harley)))))),

You were very brave to bring this subject up

I *KNOW* how hard it must have been for you. I was pressured to have an abortion when I was 29 (by the man that would become my husband). The whole 'procedure' was handled badly. I saw the baby (16 weeks).

I lived in hell for a long-long time. I wanted G-d to forgive and give me another child. Never happened. But, I did, finally, end up forgiving myself. But, not my husband.

I believe that all energy that makes up life -- animals, people, plants -- is shared and reused. I don't believe that G-d would give us the knowledge and the skill to use the technologies that are being created unless we were supposed to use them.

But, that's just what I believe. I don't expect anyone else to believe the same as I do.

When my Mom was in the hospital, I was told that my Mom was sick and dying beccause I was practicing the religion of Judaism. That's the most hateful thing anyone has ever said to me.

I've paid dearly for my decisions. I would never-ever force my decisions onto someone else.

That's a decision that each of us has to look at with our eyes and our own heart and soul. I do think that we're all responsible to hear what others are saying and then make our own determination for what fits our beliefs and our religion.

Bless you, Harley, for being brave enough and strong enough to bring up this discussion.

Hugs.

Barb

I am sending you heaps of love and hugs.
Steff

this has been amazing to me. the support, comfort, links offered, .. it was very difficult for me to bring out the subject. it was buried inside of me.. as i said.. with a thick scar over the top. i have always felt uncomfortable talking about embryonic research. i just wouldnt say why.

i will not bring it up again. there is no platform, no preaching here. everyone has their opinion, and is completely entitled to it. i just wanted to state what mine was.. it was a hard thing to do, and you know something? i am now healing ..

yes, knowing what forgiveness is.. and accepting its truth is sooooo important. thank you..

How difficult it had to have been for you to speak of your buried grief and sorrow! How courageous and strong, though, you were to have done that! I am just happy that from your courage...and from the support and understanding of those here at the forum that you have been able to start your healing...the first step in that process being the healing of self.

Therese

Harley,

I was once told that it is so much harder to receive than to give. Our pride, alone, makes it difficult. You were brave, smart and courageous in bringing up the subject. And it was wonderful to hear everyone's encouraging words. I firmly believe that you are now on the road to forgiveness, acceptance, and peace.

And, Moose, my heart bleeds for you. It's hard for me to believe that there
are such cruel people in this world. It is people like that that gives religion a bad name. Any organized religion that would say that is not a religion. It is a dictatorship. I also firmly believe that unless you can QUESTION your religious beliefs, it is equally true.

And, moderators, thanks again for allowing this healthy debate.

It was Easter day, 1976, when I miscarried my child during my fifth month. I wanted that child desperately. I was at home when it happened. I watched the placenta drop out of my body into the toilet bowl. I retrieved the baby and sent it's remains to the hospital where it was inspected to be sure I had no other matter in my uterus. When I was asked if I wanted to know if it was a boy or girl I said no.

Any woman who has experienced the miracle of conception, could not justify killing their child deliberately. The woman who give their children up for adoption do so out of love for the child. Their concern is their child have parents who are more prepared to provide a more loving environment. They put their child's needs ahead of their own. It is called unselfishness, a word very rarely heard these days in this "anything goes" society. Those who insist on tolerance are the most intolerent of all. If those who do not agree with their views, their tolerence runs right out the window.

Harley, you and I share a similair relationship with our families, and you must forgive yourself for the choices you made as a young girl. You had so much pain in your young life. Maturity brings wisdom but doesn't condemn.

Love,
Vicky

Well said, Vicky!

((((((Everyone that remembers the hurt)))))),

I used to highlight and circle phrases in books (my own books) -- phrases that 'clicked' when I was in therapy trying to adapt to 'everything'.

I've found that some people (writers especially) have the words that express exactly what's in my heart.

The saying/phrase that I wanted to pass on went something like this -- "Tea and talk is 'Jewish Therapy'. You talk and share experiences and memories over tea until the experiences and memories become just that -- experiences and memories that you share with another human being."

I had so much trouble coping with losing my Brother to suicide and losing my baby to stupidity and to not standing up for my own boundaries. What's gotten me through all of this is talking with others. It's amazing how many people share the same experiences as we do and yet -- we always think we're the only one. For me, fnding out that I wasn't 'the only one' made it so much easier for me to learn how to forgive myself and how to go on and have a life in spite of the pain.

Bless you all for reaching out to help someone who's in such severe psychic pain. I've been there and the hands and the words reaching back to help me and to hold me up saved my life.

Hugs for the room.

Barb

As I read this thread and the responses to it, I could only think about the compassion and warmth of this place where, initially, we came for information and support to help with the medical/physical aspect of this "demon disease"...yet how it is so easily able to transform itself into a healing place for aching hearts. I have no doubt that a peaceful healing has taken place for many...even those who have suffered similiarly, yet didn't feel they wanted to tell their "own" stories here in this moment. Thank you, Harley, for being instrumental in bringing about a healing that might not otherwise have happened if it were not for your strength and courage.

Therese