Wow, Harley! My heart bleeds for you.

But now another side of the story ...

I, too, had an abortion when I was 22 but I don't feel guilt and then I feel guilty that I don't feel guilt!

I also don't support embryotic research, but I would never shove it down a person's throat. To each his own.

Carey, I'm not trying to put you down, and maybe you can explain your position, but the one statement that you made has me puzzled. "Only unused eggs fertilized by in vitro fertilization

If it's am embryo, and if it's fertilized, then it is life because it has the potential to BE life.

And, Greg, your post, too, is interesting ... You state in your very first sentence "At this point, I am neither for or against embryonic stem cell research". But then further down in your paragraph you state that "I do feel that it is an area that needs to be fully explored . Allow the needed all human lines to be created and let's get on with it". I think you've confused yourself! Your post clearly states (TO ME ... I don't want to offend you or anyone else!) that you are for, and not against, embryonic research.

Okay, and now to venture a little off topic, but I'd like to ask you guys (notice that I did not say y'all!) for your opinion and honestly and truthfully seek your opinions.

I have one daughter (22) and three boys (21, 19 and 14). We have talked about sex, abortion, money, taxes, jobs, education, you name it! That open communication is what I believe has kept our kids on the right track. As a matter of fact, just last night, my daughter spent the night in Dallas with a friend ... who just happens to be a boy ... because it was halfway for both of them to drive. Do I trust her? Explicitly. In the end, even if she violated that trust, it is her choice and she has to deal with the consequences.

But there are two points that I'd like to make:

#1 - I worry more about my three boys than I'll ever worry about my daughter. WHY? Because girls are manipulative and sneaky ... They can say, "It's okay, I'm on the pill" The boys fall for it, then - surprise! ... he now has an 18 year commitment.

#2 - If my daughter ever became pregnant (well, at least until the age of 18), she knows ... and she was consistently told ... that we would give that child up for adoption. To me (again, I am not trying to offend anyone) in this day and age of "OPEN ADOPTION", there is no excuse not to do so.

I can truthfully understand having an abortion Harley, when you or I became pregnant. Do I regret it, absolutely, but I can't even fathom how difficult it must have been if you gave that child up, never to be heard from again.

And, one more question/thought. In this day and age, it is my opinion that most teenagers that become pregnant do so willingly and purposefully. I have a difficult time believing that they didn't know! I have often wondered if the boy went to court, explained that he was TOLD that she was on the pill, if he would have a case. Are there any lawyers out there?!

Moderators ... please allow these topics of discussion as long as they appear respectful.

You guys are the best!!

"And, one more question/thought. In this day and age, it is my opinion that most teenagers that become pregnant do so willingly and purposefully. I have a difficult time believing that they didn't know!".

My sister's 17 year old girl, v. bright, excellent school, (consistently rated in the top 10 of UK), is now pregnant. Lad is a waster, 19 years old, one kid already. No one can tell me they both didn't know the facts of life. Why not take the morning after pill if worried.

Unfortunately all the work will fall on my sister who is trying to rebuild her life following a divorce. She is already arguing with her "new chap", who, in his mid 40's did not have sharing the house with someone else's baby on the agenda.

Never underestimate the selfishness of a teenager !!

Neil.

kids & teens-
I think it is more of - "it won't happen to us" than anything else.
They often don't consider the consequences of their actions, they think they are invincible. A big part of being immature.

Hmm - But I think many adults do the same thing to tell the truth.

Jo, I love your countdown to Thanksgiving!

When we lived in Norway, they (obviously) don't celebrate it and our kids had to go to school. (This ticked me off because it was an International School and they easily could have given those two days off!)

But, even though we didn't celebrate it on Thursday, we always invited families over and celebrated it on Saturday. It was w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l and only an American, who lives overseas, can truly appreciate all that the good ole' USA has to offer.

As a joke, I would say to my hubby ... "You don't have to worry about infidelity, honey, I'm not staying here!"

Hi all,

Just reinforcing some facts about abortion and ESCR. They are two different things. Cells from an abortion are called fetal cells and it is not illegal to use them. They have been implanted into humans.

It is illegal to use public funding to create embryos or to use current left overs from fertility clinics, other than the ones specified by Bush years ago.

I still see Harley's line of reasoning, associating it all as destruction of human life. But to associate ESCR with abortion, is misleading and many people who are not reading up on this like we crazy,information obsessed early retired baby boomers with parkinson's do, get that idea in their head that it's like abortion.

The comparison is confusing but the facts are even more puzzling. Abortion and the use of fetal cells for research is legal.

paula

No, I'm not confused. I'm undecided.
For at least ten years now ESCR has been at the forfront of Parkinson's research. Due to the moral issues raised and the lack of proper funding this reaearch has not had a fair chance to be proven one way or another.
Here in the U.S. our president has banned allowing new uncomtaminated cell lines to be produced. How can a researcher say one way or another if ESCR will work if the material he has to work with is contaminated?
I have a disease that has forced me to leave my job, stop doing the things I like to do, and has severely impacted my quality of life and it's not going to stop until I'm dead. I want a cure or at least better medication to manage the symptoms of the disease. We should leave no stone unturned. With proper guidelines in place ESCR can be researched fully. They can prove one way or the other if ESCR is the answer we all have been waiting for. I maintain my statement, I am neither for or against ESCR. I just want a definitive answer. Yes it is or no it isn't, with out all of the political banter and moral issue beliefs and myths.

In other words, crap or get off the pot!

GregD

Terri - I agree with you re:

Carey, I'm not trying to put you down, and maybe you can explain your position, but the one statement that you made has me puzzled. "Only unused eggs fertilized by in vitro fertilization

If it's am embryo, and if it's fertilized, then it is life because it has the potential to BE life.

My main point was that aborted and miscarried fetuses and embryos are not candidates for embryotic stem cell harvesting because their stem cells are no longer blank - so that is a fear that should be put aside because it makes no sense.

Regarding the fertilized eggs: there are many people who would like to donate their leftover fertilized eggs for the purpose of scientific research, which they believe is a noble cause, but are currently prohibited from doing so.

Hypocrisy reigns in this area - people are allowed to create potential life everyday in the name of invitro fertilization, and then just casually destroy the fertilized eggs that are left over. Where is the out cry over that? Why can't a different decision be made to give them up for research? There would still be enough for adoption. The choice should be up to the parents or creators of that life - if they can now choose for them to be flushed away, they should also be allowed to choose research.

Paula, Greg & Carey,

Each of your posts help me understand just a tad more each time. I think Carey said it best, though ...

The choice should be up to the parents or creators of that life - if they can now choose for them to be flushed away, they should also be allowed to choose research.

As long as that statement doesn't affect me, and isn't dangerous to others, I don't have the right to push my beliefs on others.

This is different than, say, allowing marijuana to become legalized. All it would take is a few accidents that involves the loss of life for it to impact me.

Personally, I am against it ... but, like Guy I'm not sure that I would have the needed willpower to turn down a cure if it came to that which was (or currently is) due to embryonic stem cells.

Paula, the question FOR ME (not everyone else) is not if it's legal or not ... it's that I choose to put my beliefs over science ... legal or not.

I equate this argument to yet another passionate cause of mine (socialized medicine). Until someone experiences it, truly experiences it, please don't think it's the answer to our system. Is our health care lacking in areas ... absolutely and positively. I am not saying that our system is without problems, but if someone thinks that the problem will go away with socialized medicine, they better think twice and contact me! LOL

Moderators, thanks for allowing these type of discussions. Most of us are pretty passionate about our beliefs, and it will take only one bad apple to spoil it for the rest of us. But most of us enjoy these discussions. It helps us to:

1) Better get to know one another,
2) Have something else to focus on other than the mundane
3) Use those brain cells for a cause that we believe in
4) Sharpen our thinking process ... and (drum roll please)
5) HAVE A LIFE!!!

Greg, I also appreciate your clarification. I can see how you debate things back and forth, trying to process all of the information. Are you an engineer by chance?!!

Again thanks for the responses. Two heads are always better than one and it helps me, at least, explore both sides of the coin. I don't want any of this rammed down my throat, but a healthy debate is wonderful.

Have a wonderful Sunday everyone ...

((((((Harley)))))),

You were very brave to bring this subject up

I *KNOW* how hard it must have been for you. I was pressured to have an abortion when I was 29 (by the man that would become my husband). The whole 'procedure' was handled badly. I saw the baby (16 weeks).

I lived in hell for a long-long time. I wanted G-d to forgive and give me another child. Never happened. But, I did, finally, end up forgiving myself. But, not my husband.

I believe that all energy that makes up life -- animals, people, plants -- is shared and reused. I don't believe that G-d would give us the knowledge and the skill to use the technologies that are being created unless we were supposed to use them.

But, that's just what I believe. I don't expect anyone else to believe the same as I do.

When my Mom was in the hospital, I was told that my Mom was sick and dying beccause I was practicing the religion of Judaism. That's the most hateful thing anyone has ever said to me.

I've paid dearly for my decisions. I would never-ever force my decisions onto someone else.

That's a decision that each of us has to look at with our eyes and our own heart and soul. I do think that we're all responsible to hear what others are saying and then make our own determination for what fits our beliefs and our religion.

Bless you, Harley, for being brave enough and strong enough to bring up this discussion.

Hugs.

Barb

I am sending you heaps of love and hugs.
Steff