Ok, first, I'm not trying to defend any single product here, but I will attempt to answer a couple of questions because they apply to much more than just this one product.

No, it doesn't conceal its contents; it just doesn't list the exact amounts of some of the ingredients. Most any product in a grocery or drug store is the same way. Very often, at the bottom of the ingredients list it'll say "herbs and spices" or "flavorings" etc. and rarely (if ever) are the exact amounts of every ingredient listed.

Maybe it's because, as the label says, daily values for those ingredients have not been established, and it's a regulatory thing - only ingredients for which daily values have been established are required to be listed that way(?)

Let's look at an example: http://www.puritan.com/b-complex-vit...complex-010282
At the bottom of the label, where it says "other ingredients" it doesn't list how much of each one. And it says, "This product contains a soy ingredient." but it doesn't tell us WHAT soy ingredient, or how much. It would appear that Puritan conceals its contents too. Or maybe daily values for those ingredients have not been established.

There are other reasons all ingredients don't have exact amounts listed on labels. In the case of something like canned soup, there is no reasonable way to determine exactly how may oz/mg of carrots, beans, salt, onion powder, or other ingredients are in every can.

In many cases, it's a situation of "trade secrets". In over a century, Coca Cola has never revealed the exact formula of 7x (the syrup used to flavor their product). McDonalds never divulged what was in their secret sauce, and Col Sanders kept mum about how much and exactly which 11 herbs and spices they used (interesting story about that one - but for another time & place. :D ) Some of these secrets have leaked or been approximated, but they are still considered trade secrets, and these companies have gone to great length$ to protect those secrets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret

Trade secrets are a form of intellectual property. While patents and copyrights have time limits, trade secrets do not, which is why many companies do not patent their recipes and formulas, and that is very likely the case with a very profitable product like 5 HR., and IMO, the real reason it's done.

Yes, that is an assumption. Why did unleaded gasoline cost more than leaded gasoline? Lead was not a natural byproduct of refining; the lead was added to gasoline. Unleaded gasoline should have cost less. Should we assume that they put the lead into it and then took it out again? During the beginning of the phase-in, it might have been less expensive to do it that way. What about after unleaded gas comprised more than 1/2 of production/sales? It was still more expensive.

If I were to speculate (and that's all I can do) in the case of 5 HR., I would speculate that it's because federal regulations require that for a product to be labeled "decaffeinated" it only needs to be more than 97.5% decaffeinated. Even "decaffeinated" coffee has a small amount of caffeine. Whether the caffeine in the decaf 5 HR is added, added then removed (from a portion of the product as a cost-reduction measure), residual, or in one of the other ingredients, I have no idea. Those 6 mg (about as much as a half cup of decaffeinated coffee) aren't likely to have enough effect to make it worthwhile adding it.

Nervous asked if anyone has tried it, and if we thought it would do any harm. I have tried it. I used to like it, but as I noted, they've changed the formula several times now (I've heard at least 4 times) and I'll have to decide if I think it's still doing what it used to. We got a great deal on it through an ad in an AARP magazine (about $2/ bottle, shipping included).

I wouldn't advise using it on a regular basis, but I don't think it would harm the vast majority of PNers, especially with the toned-down formula, to use it on occasion as I have, and certainly not to try it once, as directed, and decide for themselves.

Doc

Well, some labeling is mandated by the FDA.

I can see proprietary listing as "secret" ...but CAFFEINE which is
problematic for many people.... they should list that.
It is the MAIN ingredient after all. What is most troubling is
that the DECAF has caffeine content labeled on it...a tiny 6mg,
but the stronger products...it is secret. Now come ON! :rolleyes:

The soy labeling you mention is part of the allergy revealing
FDA labeling. When that went into effect, then, with the statements,
"contains soy, or gluten, or nuts" and "manufactured on equipment that makes wheat products" etc. Also choline is derived from soy lecithin. And this product contains choline

Most of the "soy" ingredients are soybean oil or natural soy lecithin which is a suspending agent.. Inert ingredients, as you point out... are NOT active agents like CAFFEINE.
From your example:
These items are excipients added the to the product, to improve flow and management of the powder, going into the machines, and as such are not part of the "active ingredients".
Also some B-complex derives from Brewer's yeast, and hence quantifying them is not easy or possible. I suspect the FDA just permits "brewer's yeast" to be used on the labels, that contain it.

Some of the better products have detailed listings on them.
Your example is quite a LONG list of ingredients compared to most.

If you buy a taurine product....like I do with my cats, or for diabetic use, or whatever...it will say how much taurine is in each capsule. But in 5 hr energy, taurine is not quantified. Hence the "impression" is that not much is in there.

So my major problem with this product, other than the huge price for something that contains pennies worth of ingredients, is that the CAFFEINE is not quantified. Also the B6 is quite high, and for some people who get "hooked" on 5 hr energy, because of the kick it provides and the caffeine withdrawal that can occur when not used, the B6 can become problematic for some people.
I think 10mg of B6 would have been plenty.

^^I appreciate this kind of back-and-forth exchange, which allows us to be evermore precise, specific and clear in our statements.

Thank you both.

Thanks...nervous. I look at things from a safety point of view.

Labeling in this country has always been contentious...It took YEARS to get trans fats labeled on food. All the while they were harming people. The food industry has very powerful clout to get what they want.

I think we should all know what we are consuming, and how much of the active ingredients are in items we choose.

I know when I contact manufacturers I've been told, "we don't have access to that information, because we purchased the "product" from someone else". Case in point, are magnesium mixtures that have Magnesium oxide, magnesium malate and magnesium chelate listed as a group. I have never been able to find out how much magnesium oxide is in there! They will give final elemental based on the chemistry, but in this case the OXIDE we now know is useless and if it is the majority which it usually is because of cost factors and tablet size factors, then the consumer is not getting what they think they are getting.

Another recent case I had the misfortune of having was with Hershey's. I bought the cherry cordial kisses to take on vacation for a "dessert" treat. Being on the island with small refrigeration capacity and difficult store access, we eat simple things. Well Hershey's changed the formula and added SORBITOL to them to keep them "liquid" longer on the shelf. The previous bag I had more than a year ago did NOT have sorbitol in it, and I didn't read the ingredients of the new one because I had not idea the formula had changed!

I had 5 of them one night and was sick in the outhouse in a thunderstorm to boot as a result. Sorbitol is a laxative!
I called them up and wanted to know how much in each kiss...and was told they didn't have to label this with quantity unless it was more than 50milligrams. (the FDA rule).
I really gave them "what for" as this agent is sickening for some people. As a consolation they sent me $9.00 in coupons for any Hershey product.

But labeling of products both vitamin/supplements and foods remains iffy even with the new disclosures of allergenic contents.

I have narcolepsy and sleep apnea. I have used these repeatedly without any problems at all. They get me through the day sometimes.

I just went through my pantry. Know what ELSE doesn't list how much caffeine it contains? COFFEE! and tea, colas and other soft drinks that contain it, OTC analgesics, and most anything containing chocolate. I haven't checked the medicine cabinets yet.

I don't know of ANY energy drinks that DON'T contain caffeine (except for the miniscule amounts in Decafs), so if that's a problem for people, they aren't likely going to be using ANY of them, anyway - so if the caffeine is the problem you're having, it's a moot point. The edge 5 HR has is that unlike most of the others (that aren't copying them) caffeine ISN'T the main ingredient.

Is it 5 HR you have a problem with, or energy drinks in general? Because THAT's a whole different issue/ball-o-worms.

Doc

The FDA allows caffeine in foods and extracts from foods.

It is when a product ADDS the ingredient as extra, that labeling
requirements change.

For example, V8 vegetable juice has more potassium than most RX tablets. This is because the veggies that are juiced contain alot of potassium. But potassium supplements only have a maximum allowable limit, of 99mg each tablet per the FDA.
Gatorade is man made, has no natural extracts, and hence only 30mg of potassium per serving.

Coffee is a natural thing. Coffee yogurt has caffeine because the coffee mixed in has caffeine.

To the best of my knowledge, 5 hour Energy does not have coffee in it. And the company knows how much caffeine it adds to this product. It told the website you posted exactly. The product does not have cola extract (which is what sodas use) either. I believe that caffeine was added to cola extracts decades ago when cocaine was removed. It is some grandfathered in permission. I don't know how the other types sodas get by with not labeling caffeine though.

There must be a loophole where the FDA allows things, like the proprietary mixtures on some supplements. In those cases, to protect formula "secrets" supposedly those products file for FDA approval in the labeling but consumers don't see that application or its details.

By the time all the rules are determined it is so complicated that you need a lawyer to figure it all out.

I am just saying that caffeine is a stimulant, and as such I think consumers have a right to know how much is added to this product. Caffeine is not a secret thing, it is a common substance and hence what is the problem with telling people how much is in there? Caffeine in the 5 hr energy is the MAIN ingredient as well!

Here are some links discussing the "caffeine" issue:
http://www.cspinet.org/new/caffeine.htm

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec...on28-2009dec28

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0924075307.htm
(this link goes into beverage caffeine content)

In other words, if a manufacturer is consumer aware, they will
help and disclose. That is the bottom line.
An example:
The Frito-Lay company disclosed and removed transfats years before the 2006 dead line finally imposed by the government.
This I think is an example of ethical and positive response to
consumer concerns about the fats used to make FritoLay products. But I think Frito-Lay is the exception, and not the rule as far as food labeling goes.

5 hour Energy does not disclose. For healthy people, this is less of a problem, but for older people, or those with chronic illness or taking many medications, caffeine then could become problematic. It seems odd to me that you could buy NODoz and see right on it how much caffeine is in each tablet. But if you get a soft drink or this Energy product you are blind to what you are consuming.

I consider caffeine to be a DRUG. It happens to be OTC, but so are other strong drugs. It has health ramifications...can induce headaches upon withdrawal and cause significant anxiety, insomnia and cardio effects in some people. This product appears to have almost 5 times the caffeine content compared to a diet cola (ave 30mg each). So to
me it seems significant and worth having more information about.

Backatya. I try to look at things with a level head and apply a reasonable person standard/POV. I don't discount safety; I often voice my concerns as well, and I think that comes out in my posts. Coming from a family/household of a wide range of experience (medicine, law, design/engineering, business process improvement, animal & human behavior, history) and being raised in the '60s (question everything!) I do tend (try?) to step back and see the larger picture (nobody's perfect) and view things from a different perspective.

Doc

exactly! what is the problem with disclosing how much caffeine is in your product. In my opinion its the mystique factor in this case. Many people do not realize that caffeine is involved in these drinks. If they thought about it or knew it sales might suffer. the angle they work is that it is some new modern scientific breakthrough. Again in my opinion i dont think that extreme anything is a good practice for those with chronic illness.

I don't know that either way, but as I surmised, your issue isn't (or shouldn't be) with 5 Hr per se, but the energy drink/shot industry in general. I have yet to find any such product that quantifies its caffeine or "energy blend" contents precisely.


Doc