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would 189 neurites/mm2 equate to 18.9 per mm? also is there any info on how to calculate percentiles (incorporating age, sex, etc.)?
thank you |
Hello!
I hope you get this as your post was made a month or two ago, but I would be inclined to think that you are suffering from Lyme disease. Just my personal opinion, especially after reading your Lyme test results. Lyme can cause peripheral neuropathy, which may very well explain your NLD-SFN. I know some folks with Lyme who went from 100% healthy to horribly ill in the matter of 24 hours! It does happen...I pray that you find relief!
Mytea Quote:
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Hello Again
pg,
I forgot to mention that a lot of people who have Lyme also suffer from POTS!!! Forgot to mention that! Mytea |
Hello for the last time:)
pg,
So I started posting before I read the complete thread and realized that you are still posting on this thread so you will likely get ALL of my postings! Anyway, I wanted to mention that Lyme often needs to be treated with multiple antibiotics for effective treatment. Doxy alone is not going to do it, especially at doses below 400mg a day. I wanted to also mention that not everyone with Lyme experiences herx reactions so do not let that lead you away from Lyme. Have you had any thyroid testing? Some people with Lyme also mention thyroid overactivity or inactivity...can't remember which at the moment. Lyme is a very strange disease and everyone presents differently to some extent. If your symptoms do not look exactly like those listed on the 'mayo clinic' website do not rule it out all together. I know quite a bit about Lyme and if you can get to an LLMD who is going to treat you with more than just Doxy I would look into it. Lyme symptoms can also come and go...for instance I have a girlfriend who had all of her joints flare-up and she never did find out what was causing all of her discomfort at the time. Maybe 6 months into the mystery the joint pains just went away and she hasn't had any since. She does have Lyme, but no joint pain since the first flare. Anyway, just my two cents. I am not a physician, I just wanted to give my input. Thank you for listening! |
Well--
--a "neurite" is simply an axon or nerve fiber--the part of a nerve cell that extends from the cell body and conducts electrochemical messages.
The small-fiber nerves are mostly axon--many have their cell bodies far from the eventual sensory surface and the axons, while very thin, can extend for feet in length. If it does say 189 per square millimeter of skin that actually sounds pretty high. I am not certain how that lab does its analysis, although the reference to seventeenth percentile does seem to indicate "within normal range" according to the McArthur protocols (though I think those rather arbitrarily were set to define below the fifth percentile or above the ninety-fifth percentile as "normal"). But, again, we don't know where you "started" in terms of nerve fiber density before this; seventeenth percentile may represent a dimunition for you, or it may not. From my own skin biopsy results, the McArthur protocols list the following "normal" means and standard deviations, in fibers per square millimeter : Thigh: 21.1 mean, 10.4 standard deviation Distal leg (ankle) 13.8 mean, 5.6 Standard deviation This means, going by a standard distribution, the fifth percentile for thigh is 5.2, and for distal leg (ankle) it's 3.8 (also listed on the report). My report (at least my first one) gave a nerve fiber density of 5.0 for thigh and 3.2 for distal leg (ankle) also indicated "excessive branching and swelling", consistent with a small-fiber neuropathy. |
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I have seen 3 LLMD's here in MA. and several ID docs. I have studied a great deal and belong to several lyme support groups. One doc wanted me on mepron and azithromyacin (thought I may have a touch of babesia even though 3 tests have cme back negative and I dont have fevers or night sweats, or elevated liver values, the hallmarks of babesia) other doc wanted me on baxian and plaquenil or high dose tetracycline. I did not want to do the plaquenil/biaxin due to side effects, so tried the tetra and at two weeks felt too horrible stomachwise and switched to just 200mg doxy a day (what my ID pcp wanted me on). Did a month of that and actually felt pretty bad on it. It was only till a month after being off it that I started to notice the tingle I got on my back was gone, the muscle tightness feeling I had was a little less, fatigue was down (now at the gym 4-5x a week) and my hr/bp jumps (i.e., POTS) was a little better. With that said I feel no where near 100%, but my doc insists that the full effects of the doxy, as far as symptoms go, will not be shown til 3 months off. If I start to regress at all he wants to put me on IV, if I stay where I am at now he wants to try a round of smething different, or if I continue to improve he wants to just stay where I am at. Not sure what to do... I have a stockpile of biotics, and the means to whatever treatment I want, I am just more hesitant about taking anything. I know you said doxy for only a month doesnt work (I have read this too), but it must work sometimes, I am hoping that is the case for me, if not I'll be back on something. One last thing, thorughout all of this I have had my immune system markers tested multiple times, including the CD-57 test and they have always been perfect which as I understand it usually isnt the case in someone with lyme or atleast "chronic lyme". My CD-57 was actually 238, most people with chronic lyme come in under 50 and closer to 20... so that kind of confuses me, unless I just have a robust immune system that is capable of fighting on its own. |
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Is there somewhere to find these protocols online? I'd like to get the numbers for someone of my sex, age, etc. (.e., the 5th% floor and 95% ceiling for all three sites) and calculate where I fall into place. I did a search and didnt come up with much. Do the 5th and 95th percentiles really vary that much based on age and sex? |
The percentiles do vary somewhat--
--by age more than by gender; generally the older you are the lower the normal ranges are, though the change in the distribution from say, 30 to 70 is not that extreme. Over 70, if I remember correctly, there's more of a "drop off".
I'm running out to do tutoring very soon, so I don't have time to search the old archives now, but I will later and see if I can find the original Johns hopkins papers that documented the enumeration of intraepidermal small fiber density in normal subjects, which was a project that went on over several years in the 80's and 90's. |
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I was surprised Beth Israel didnt put the range on the results from my biopsy, they just posted my numbers, no range! Thanks |
Here are a few of the papers/abstracts--
--which mention the ranges (the ones is the McArthur papers are the ones used by most labs in the US):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9865794 http://www.dafml.unito.it/anatomy/pa...pidermiche.pdf http://www.mendeley.com/research/dis...al-human-skin/ This Aetna policy paper is also good to peruse, mostly as a summary of the work done in the area recently: http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/700_799/0774.html |
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