A pharmaceutical "propaganda issue driven by money"....noooo it can't be! :eek:


judi

Looks like it may not be necessary after all; the nurse called yesterday with results of all the blood tests the doctor ordered. Everything was normal/negative except AST (lab messed up) but the doctor isn't going to re-order because all the other liver tests were fine (which I partially credit to NAC).

Doc

Ah yes, the accuracy of lab tests. Had a long talk about this with a nurse who did these tests (even "manually" in Poland before she moved)... let's say it's easy to mess up.

But indeed, if ALT/Gamma-GT etc are normal then there's nothing to worry about. (I sometimes wished I didn't know this. ;) )

More on AST here:

http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disor...ransferase-ast

This is a very good explanation from Cleveland Clinic:
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/...n-liver-tests/

as is the case for most propaganda

the answer is simply "follow the money"

I hate to be so trite...but after 60 years on this planet, it is so evident

Mrs. D..Lisinopril
 

Lisinopril debacle??? I have not heard anything about this. I currently have cut down from 10mg's to 5 mg's since the Sprionlactone I take for my Edema has really brought my blood pressure reading to near perfect. At doctors office yesterday, my pressure was 128 over 68.

I am currently reading this thread because you had listed it on your response regarding my Cholesterol readings in today's post to you.

I am very confused??


Gerry

It's interesting that we all have 'hot buttons'.

I have genetically outrageous cholesterol. Identified when I was 37. I had arcus senilis which is a ring of lipid around my cornea. And I was thin, active and had cholesterol over 400.

At 57 I had severe coronary artery disease, the Left Anterior Descending Artery (called the Widow Maker for a reason) was 95% blocked and I had two other blocked arteries. Fortunately I had caught it before a heart attack, and angioplasties and stents cleared my arteries.

And I have taken 80 MG of Lipitor a day since 1999...so going on 15 years.

I had no problems with muscles or neuropathy until 2007-9 (I didn't even know I had severe PN until it was identified in 2009).

My PN is 'probably' the result of the Macrobid (Nitrofurantoin) I took daily for 3 months and then 10 days out of ever 60 for the next two years or more. Starting in 2007. I had chronic UTIs, and was terrified of another septic kidney infection with e-coli. I now never have a UTI because I take D-Mannose daily.

I know the power and influence of the drug industry (my husband taught in medical school for 25 years, and my son is a doctor). I know that little research is done on PN and statins, probably due to that power.

But knowing all of that, I take my statin horse pill every day. Thank goodness is it now available in generic.

For every person who suffers from the effects of a drug, there are others who benefit greatly. Generally speaking major clinical trials are aimed at finding the results and benefits of any drug for the majority of those taking the drug.

The world is what it is. Power and money corrupt everyone, and have in all places and in all times. Life is full of risk, and we don't get out alive.

I know many people on many forums feel compelled to crusade against something that has harmed them.

I have a more philosophical (or perhaps lazy?) approach. I feel that I have had more than 10 years of life due to the medical sciences advancements that have been made in my life time.

I have signed those forms before surgery, you know the ones that list everything that 'can happen'. I don't even read them.

We all do what we can, and I appreciate the efforts everyone makes to help the world be safer. It is a noble cause.

Hugs, Elaine

Everyone here really has to make their own decisions regarding drug therapies. I only provide information, that doctors might not know (or is being concealed by drug companies etc,)
As far as your personal experience, Elaine, I see several possibilities for you.

1) It is possible your PN was minor until you added the MacroBid.
All the papers I've see on nitrofurantoin as a PN trigger discuss a reversal with time, of the PN if it occurs. Yours has not done so.

2) Is is possible you have a additive effect or synergistic effect on the nerves with both high dose Lipitor and Macrobid. Typically the research is very thin and resolution from PN caused by statins is difficult to find anywhere. Dr. Graveline on his website does discuss his resolution of memory loss from Lipitor, but he was not on it as long as you.

3) You could try lowering your dose of Lipitor to see if you retain the numbers you want, at the lower doses. This is feasible. You could always go back on it if this fails with little if any harm done.
Both Dr. Graveline an Dr. Jay Cohen, suggest this treatment option for those with profound hereditary hyperlipidemia. Dr. Cohen has written a book discussing drug dosing in general and has suggested that drug companies arbitrarily choose a dose when lower doses may work. For example, Crestor now once or twice a week in a very low dose, does work for many patients.
There is a study on this.
http://www.jaycohenmd.com/safermedication.html

Two books by Dr. Cohen...
http://www.amazon.com/Over-Dose-Jay-...s=Jay+Cohen+MD
discusses medication overdosing

and:
http://www.amazon.com/about-Statin-D...s=Jay+Cohen+MD
Discusses alternative dosing for statins and other methods of approaching elevated cholesterol.

The statin drugs were designed initially for patients with familial hypercholesteremia (not for the general public). What we know today, about genetic variability in those who may potentially be damaged by them, is also fairly new. I think with all this new information, you could
try to lower that Lipitor dose. You will likely always need some statin, because of your genetic history but how much is a cloudier issue. These drugs were designed for you... but there may be wiggle room in the dosing which you won't know unless you try to find it.

The member olsen on PD forum knows much about the genetic variability and potential damage from statins. She works in the research field, and really is highly informed on these issues:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/post1002533-6.html
You could be tested for that gene (SLCO1B1) she mentions in this post. And you could PM her and discuss things...she is very helpful and has access to more resources than I have.

4) you can accept your fate with your treatment as it is now. This is what you seem to be doing from what I read in your postings.
Keep in mind that the research does show, risk of hemorrhagic stroke is higher in statin users than those not taking it. And a bit lower for blood clot strokes. Also if one does not use CoQ-10...with time, statin users face a risk of heart failure due to heart muscle weakness/damage. And all the other negative potential effects also increase in patients 5+ yrs into treatment with statins. There is little if any evidence that CoQ-10 protects from nerve damage but it does help muscle side effects so far. It is possible with more time the CoQ-10 will show more
positive results. The new water soluble affordable forms, are going to take more time to show up in studies. CoQ-10 until very recently was poorly absorbed even in the oil gel caps.

Everyone is different and brings their own unique genetic profile
to the table where medicine is concerned. What one person needs will not necessarily be what the next person needs. It would be wonderful if medicine were more personally tailored, and perhaps soon, this will happen. ;)

I took a statin for about 5 years..then developed Vulvodynia ( nerve damage ) and then Neuropathy in feet and lower legs. I quit the statin and then told my Dr. why. He said don't go back on them.

Is there a class action lawsuit going on and if so what is the website?

Suits of that type usually pertain to a specific medication rather than a whole class of medications in general.
You could try perusing class action statins but you may have better luck searching: class action [medication name]

Doc

In pursuing a legal solution there are things you need to know.

1) some states have new laws that block people from suing drug companies over damages from that company's medication. My state is one of them. The drug companies have pressured many state legislatures for this. But I am unsure how many today, have laws in place to prevent law suits.

2) There is a statute of limitations in each state as to the time interval allowed. Most commonly it is 2 yrs. If you go past that time you cannot bring suit.

3) you have to PROVE it was the Lipitor. This is difficult. The latest round of lawsuits over Vioxx, took many years and even though the FDA took Vioxx off the market, not every person who had damage from it, won their suits.

4)There is a Lipitor class action suit, but I believe the commercials only stated ..."women who had increased incidence of
diabetes on Lipitor." From what I've seen on the TV the liability
lawyers seem to only advertise FDA actions with drugs. The FDA has not ruled yet on neuropathy for Lipitor, but it has on diabetes induction.

Therefore you do have to search as Dr. Smith suggests, or call an attorney who specializes in drug claims. Most liability attorneys do not charge unless you win, and offer free consultations to gather the facts etc.

Ok, thanks.

new cholesterol lowering drugs coming soon:
 

Here is a Yahoo article on this topic today:

http://news.yahoo.com/studies-drugs-...181128072.html

Yahoo links don't last long, so I quoted a brief part including the name of this product, so people can search Google for more information about it.

i started livalo about 10 days ago.

i will come back and post up my exact numbers before and after.

i am taking 1/2 of a 2 (1mg) for 2 weeks.

then 2 mg for 4 weeks.

then i rum out of samples. prescript is for 2 mg adjustable of course.

i have a blood test in 10 weeks.

That is a statin and has all the risks statins
carry.

Amen!

David

:hug:

Since that post my doctor and I traced my irritability
to my thyroid medication. It appears that my status
Changed and that my need for levothyroxine
Changed. So even 3 months with no
Medication I do feel much better. The plan now
is for retesting in 6 months.
It is a mystery however why this happened to
me.

while your answer is correct its NOT COMPLETE.



gabapentin

Percentage of NEURONTIN patients where NEUROPATHY PERIPHERAL is a reported side effect: 4.0435324988171%

livalo

Percentage of PITAVASTATIN patients where NEUROPATHY PERIPHERAL is a reported side effect: 8.8235294117647%


i can deal with some neuropathic discomfort to lower my cholesterol.

the risk appears double that of taking neurontin which LOTS of us take......I currently take 3600mg of neurotin BTW.

so IMO, its worth the risk to try LIVALO.

sorry you dont agree mrs D....but IMO you dont agree with anyone trying ANYTHING :rolleyes:

You don't have to agree with me, Rob.

But the statin PN is often permanent. Also the new information on other toxicities is concerning. I really don't need to say much more on this matter until new information comes out.

Keep in mind that Livalo is new, and stats take up to 10 yrs to
come forth on new patented drugs. But the family of statins are all quite difficult because they affect the same biochemical pathway...the link I put up earlier in this thread. They all work the same way basically, with minor differences in lipid solubility.

and remember, there is little "proof" that statins do much/anything for persons without hx of heartattck.

Also...Livalo is being detailed heavily now since Lipitor went generic and Crestor is soon to leave patent also. (hence all the Crestor ads).

Livalo was the last statin approved by the FDA, basically because it was in process, coming from Japan. All subsequent statins have NOT been approved after it on RX.

However Pfizer is attempting to get OTC lipitor in the US. All previous statin OTC attempts have been denied. Here is an article discussing it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlama...f-otc-lipitor/

If Lipitor goes OTC insurance won't pay for it. (Seniors will not be happy with this arrangement). I can also say based on my experience with patients returning Lipitor during a recall in the mid 2000's....the patients didn't even want the replacement....they hated it more than I expected.

So I don't see an OTC Lipitor working out. But who knows?
It just may appear, and then disappear..like many products do.

Livalo was approved in 2009. This drug has a complex history at the FDA. Here is the patent data:
http://orange-book.findthebest.com/l/21901/Livalo

It is your guess as to which expiration date of this drug is the real one. ;)

All statins are toxic in some ways. So I put up the information here so people can monitor themselves, and request from their doctors a response to problematic side effects. It is up to each person here to decide and monitor their statin use. It is not only PN at stake, however. So watch for any signs of not feeling well.

money
 

Quite right. They're recommending statins based on GREED.

this is an old thread, but I thought I would add: I personally know that you need to take CoQ10 if you take statins. I was on Lipitor for a while, saw the bad press, stopped taking it, and then my endocrinologist did a routine cholesterol test and said it was WAY HIGH, so I told him I stopped it for a month, and he highly recommended I go back on it.

I was getting very tired/lethargic at one point. for many months I just slept a lot, had little energy, etc. I researched all the drugs I took, and found some stuff about Lipitor screwing with your CoQ10. so I got some CoQ10 and within two days, all the tiredness was gone! it was like a miracle.

I still take the generic statin today, but with every statin pill I pop, I also take 200 mg ubiquinol by swansons. I am convince it is needed.

Welcome spanz. :Wave-Hello:

I took 10 mg Lipitor around 1999 and had no side effects for a long time, so when I started noticing numbness and burning in my feet, I never suspected that Lipitor was the cause. Thank goodness my daughter-in-law read an article in the Peoples Pharmacy about statins causing these problems.

drugs as powerful as these should not be OTC, i assume otc, as mean you can buy it from at a grocery store, convenient store that can store generics, where anyone can buy it. i think it will stay generic, and still require a prescription.

Here is a new article from the UK about statins ...and the risks of Parkinson's disease.

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/...-nerve-disease

BTW UK allows OTC statin Zocor for sale there! Zocor is the most lipophilic (soluble in fat) and hence gets into nerves and the brain more easily than other statins. The FDA here has already sent out warning letters regarding high dose Zocor therapies.
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/Cons.../ucm257884.htm

Statins' days are numbered and soon they will be history, IMO.

As I not long ago made a big change in my diet to go low carb, I did a lot of reading on the subject of saturated fat and whether it's still believed to be bad for you or not. In the process, here's something VERY interesting I learned about LDL, the "bad" cholesterol that I didn't know:

"LDL comes in four basic forms: a big, fluffy form known as large LDL, and three increasingly dense forms known as medium, small, and very small LDL. A diet high in saturated fat mainly boosts the numbers of large-LDL particles, while a low-fat diet high in carbohydrates propagates the smaller forms. The big, fluffy particles are largely benign, while the small, dense versions keep lipid-science researchers awake at night.

But here's the problem: The typical LDL test doesn't distinguish between large and small LDL particles — it can't even spot the difference. And people can have mostly large LDL or mostly small LDL in their overall LDL, depending upon a host of genetic, lifestyle, and environmental factors. Your own personal mix may make all the difference between living to a heart-healthy old age and becoming a Monday-morning casualty at your desk."

I pulled this excerpt from the article at the link below, but saw it in many other places.

It will be interesting to see my cholesterol results in July. I'm not watching my fat intake at all right now while doing very low carbs.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35058896/n.../#.VSVzcvnF98E

___________________________________

The science has actually moved beyond particle size/type/pattern since there were many confounders in that data, which have since been sorted out. Lipoprotein particle number is now considered to be a better predictor of heart disease risk. When they looked at data where they held both particle count and LDL size consistent, the relationship between particle size and cardiac events diminishes. However, they do think that those smaller, more dense particles might be marker for metabolic issues, which carries its own risk issues. Particle count is measured my NMR, which is test most people will never receive. Interesting stuff.

Wow mrsD!

Big Pharma will really be upset by this.

What do you think are the top reasons?

Lawsuits?

TIA

The main reason we have statins, is greed. Studies keep coming out showing very little usefulness for them compared to their toxicity potential.

The new family of cholesterol drugs is almost here. But it will take time to show effectiveness if there is any.

The whole premise of lowering cholesterol is in question. The statins were developed initially only for people with the genetic
familial hypercholesteremia...and they are not common. Those patients get really viscous blood..often the fat will rise in the collection tube and be visible. This leads to blood flow stagnation as a physical entity and hence blood clots form in the slow blood flow. Generalizing their problems to all people (including children) is a huge error, and has led to what we see now.

There is work now showing low cholesterol is a factor in developing Parkinson's. I think more diseases will be added.

Crestor's patent is almost expired...
http://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/as...allenge_469203

I certainly detest that current TV commercial for it with the happy lady dancing around. Once Crestor is gone, the sales reps will stop visiting doctors' offices, to persuade more RXs to be written.

That will only leave Livalo on patent, and that one has a while to go now.

As the negative studies get published more and more on generic versions of statins, and law suits increase, then we will see doctors being more cautious with them.

Interesting! Had not heard of it.

Do you know anything about this test?

http://www.spectracell.com/clinicians/products/lpp/

I have heard of that test; it's a particle staining test. I don't know a ton about it. I've fallen a little out of step with keeping up on this topic (most of my attention has been on SFN, like many of us here), but I think that the NMR test is still the gold standard and is the only one recommended by the governing bodies that set the standard for doctors. Even then, your average doc might not know about or utilize this test. NMR is an expensive instrument and I would call it a specialty area of analytical chemistry that requires skilled personnel to run it. So this test probably ain't that cheap. :)

When I have a little more time later tonight, I'll try to find a straight forward article that explains LDL particle count and why it's the best direct marker to measure. It's also interesting because this explains why people who have cardiac events can have low cholesterol. Tim Russert falls into this camp.

Ok, thanks. I just want to be fully armed with information in case my LDL goes up on my low carb/higher fat diet now.

I have bad cardiac history on both sides of the family, but I also have the homozygous 9p21 cardiac risk variant as does about 23% of the population. We're at an increased risk of an early MI with no known pathology.

http://www.bhlinc.com/clinicians/test-descriptions/9p21

I don't lose sleep over it or anything, but cardiac-wise, I think this is my biggest issue.

Particle Count
 

A good starter article on LDL-P and LDL-C

http://www.docsopinion.com/health-an.../lipids/ldl-p/

I also like that they write about the discordance between LDL-P and LDL-C for some individuals.

Quality fat is healthy for most but there definitely is a small portion of the population that might have to watch their fat intake. I'm more familiar with the homozygous APOE4 gene (ancestral remnant), which makes individuals more prone to inflammation and oxidation stress, thus more prone to heart disease. Thanks for the link!

Hopefully you can keep on top of your lipid testing. If you ever see a problem, definitely bring the NMR profile up with your doc or ask for a physician who is well versed in advanced lipid testing.

When will the new family of peripheral neuropathy drugs be here?

Sorry for going off topic, I couldn't help myself.

I certainly would also like to see some
New nontoxic PN treatment arrive for us
As well! Sigh!

Thanks for this. Will learn more about NMR.

I'm E3/E3 on APOE, but my sister wasn't so lucky...she got one E4. Mom had Alzheimer's with no history on my dad's side, so Mom likely had the one E4. She also had very bad heart disease, and had the Bentall Procedure and a quad bypass when she was 67.

Funny you should say "nontoxic" Mrs D. as there are several PN clinical trials underway using tetrodotoxin, a known neurotoxin. :mad: