Pinky, FYI, I came across this now too:

http://www.pureencapsulations.com/vi...an-liquid.html

HI David,

MK7 is definitely more bioavailable, but I've been putting in a little bit of research and it seems like the clinical properties in the MK7 are NOT as proven in the scientific literature as they are for MK4. Part of this could be because MK7 has been studied less than MK4. And there have been no comparator studies that have looked at which one is superior...at least I haven't found any yet.

In rat studies they have looked at arterial calcification and found that K2 MK4 is what the arteries prefer. We aren't good converters of K1 (leafy greens) to K2 MK4, so supplementing with the MK4 form will possibly help reverse or prevent arterial calcification.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17138823

MK4 seems to be very effective at preventing osteoporosis related fractures in humans.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=410550

This study on MK7 concluded that it did not stop bone loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19937427


My list of pros/cons for K2 MK4 vs K2 MK7:

• MK4 is synthetic and while MK7 is natural

• MK7 cost more than MK4

• MK7 is more bioavailable than MK4

• MK4 is more studied and proven than MK7

• If you have a soy allergy, you could react to MK7

Would you agree with this? Has anyone looked into this and what do you think? I'm probably going to stick with MK4 for now, but I'm always open to new information.

Hi Madisongrrl,

This is great stuff. Thank you for sharing. Did I not see it, or is the first link/study not specify whether they administered MK4 or 7? It seems like it was a mix of K1 and K2 (ambiguously), no? The second link is clearly positive for MK4, and the last one unfavorable for MK7, no doubt.

What to conclude? I think what you say is right. My inclination now is to take both, or a supplement that has both. But there is this: http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/...475-2891-11-93. So if taking 4, especially if alone, I would imagine needing to supplement at higher doses, though would that be safe? But it seems like the limited research has at least raised concern regarding whether the serum availability of 7, which is clearly far superior, translates into bone availability or saturation, which is after all the real issue, right?

I wonder now if my reaction to the two supplements is to the K2, or more precisely to soy. I used to eat a ton of soy, but that was before all this. I'm curious how the Pure Encapsulations will work out - that's 7 and K1, and I imagine lanoline derived D3.

So, before sending this off, I tried to find another study, and did find a longer, three-year study and it seems quite a bit more promising: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23525894. Interestingly, the total hip was once again not well served. I wonder what's going on there.

Alright, that's it for now. Thanks again for the links and the thoughts. I might think if finding something with some MK4 too, though it seems I would need a high dose. I have to do a bit more research when I have more time.

So I've been on a bit of a roller coaster ride with D3. It's been a month or so on this trip, since I needed to leave time to get back to baseline before trying something new.

Initially I took a 1000 IU D3/K2 (MK7, so from natto) mix with an additional 1000 IU of D3 and I had some bad reactions, severe diarrhea in fact, as I believe I reported on this thread. There was also indigestion and nausea. I then waited to received the Pure Encapsulations Calcium K/D and tried that. I only had one capsule, so 500 IU and it upset my stomach, though very mildly. Although it was too soon to tell, I decided to cut that out, realizing that I needed to first try it pure, as we know we should do, so as to isolate the problem. So I took the D3 that I have made with organic coconut oil, glycerin from palm, and bovine gelatin. So far I've taken it for 3 days, today being the 4th, and it has progressively or increasingly upset my stomach, but not very much. Last night was the worst as I felt somewhat nauseous, though in the morning I also had mild diarrhea. Today there was no diarrhea.

But I wanted to report something more interesting and problematic. It has been great taking the D3 in one sense: I have an amazing amount of energy and drive the likes of which I've not seen in some time. My mood is amazing, my energy through the roof, I awake in the morning and I feel completely fresh, and so on and so forth. But that's the problem: for example, last night I couldn't get to bed/didn't want to until 2:30/3 am, and then I didn't feel like sleeping. I then woke up a few hours later. I did force myself on all three mornings to sleep in longer but I don't want to be waking up in the middle of the day, given work and everything else. But my symptoms will be quite intense without lots of sleep. This is all vivid, because before the D3 I was sleeping quite well: about 8-10 hours a night, something I can't recall doing since my early teens, before my life long battle with insomnia.

I plan to keep taking the D3, but rather than at night with dinner, in the morning with breakfast. I'll keep taking the same one for now. But if the digestive and other problems continue, I plan to try one more lanolin based D3, the purest one I can find with no glycerin or oils or gelatin, the Pure Encapsulations D3 1000 IU. If that fails, then I will try this, which is quite a bit more pricey, it seems, though perhaps not in the end: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=A910SOE1FKRQR. It is lichen based as it will be clear at that point that I'm allergic to lanolin.

I had suspected the K2 source, natto, but perhaps it is the lanolin, since on some level I think I may have mild allergies to wool. I'm not too keen on lichen as a source, since some who have mold/bacteria/fungus issues have reported some serious allergic reactions, but it may be my only option short of high mercury and high vitamin A fish oils. I have heard though that people who get a crazy boost on the lanolin don't have such an extreme reaction on the lichen source, so that's good. I mean, I like the energy and productivity, but I also want to be able to unwind and get some sleep at night. Hopefully the change to taking it in the morning will help with that.

Thanks for listening and if you have any ideas, thoughts, suggestions and the like, let me know.

EDIT/ADDITION: I've considered of just carrying on with the lanolin based D3, if I only have mild allergic reactions, but then I worry that this is causing inflammation and that's never a good idea in my state.

Now brand has D3 and K together in Liposomoal spray formula and caps.

I'd like to give a ray of hope.

It is possible to significantly raise your Vitamin D levels.

I had very, very low levels. I had a million things continually going wrong with me. In January last year, I had the goal to get healthy or just stop the barage of new things going wrong and specifically raise my Vitamin D levels.

First, I took daily "WildOel", product in Europe, more natural form of vitamin D, in a tablespoon of olive oil along with a meal with fats, to help with absorption.

Secondly ... less practical ... but made huge difference to health overall .... I made a big sacrifice, talked to loved ones, did my research and found an in expensive way to spend three months, during winter in warm weather with sunshine closer to the equator and was religious about being in the sun each day (only need 30 minutes, too much sun and your body limits/regulates how much D it's absorbing so you don't overdose).

Thirdly ... when I came back, I was absolutely religious (set my daily alarm) to no matter what, get out in the sun over Spring/Summer/Autumn for 20 minutes daily before 2pm. (see note below).

My health improved soooo-oooo-oooo much and my D levels gradually came way up to a very healthy level by Autumn. Infact I tested quite well.

My body was telling me I had to change my life and so I knuckled down and found a way to do what was needed. My family was more supportive than I expected.

So perhaps not all my solution is practical for everyone but it is possible to see a very healthy improvement in D levels over the course of half a year.

At some point, for some of us, there comes a time when you have to ask if your body won't let you recover until you do something big, possibly very very inconvenient, that's needed to heal.

Natalie

P.S. Please note that because of the angle of the sun to the planet, anyone who lives above the latitude of Los Angeles will not receive Vitamin D from the sun from the start of October until the start of April and will only get Vitamin D from the Sun the rest of the year before 2pm. There's actually more gradient than this, but this is a very rough rule of thumb. However, this does not mean that there aren't many other benefits from getting out in the sun outside of these time windows. For example, seeing good light in the morning has a strong effect on your bio rhythms during the day and how well you fall asleep at night, etc.

Thank you for this. It's wonderful to hear, and good on you. Sometimes we do need to make drastic changes and finally listen to our bodies, I agree.

I am already noticing a major difference in how my body is working, and it has only been a few days, less than a week, so much so that my wife, who doesn't touch supplements and vitamins - she is very health - is thinking of supplementing with D. It's truly amazing. I wonder how it all will progress in the days, weeks and months to come.

I write this on yet another cloudy day, with rain, or snow, or what have you. I think we'll at least take a trip down south, perhaps to Florida for a week or so. That should help. And perhaps I can find a way to find us a summer home now and then, since we can both work remotely in the summers.

I have to say, it's nice that you have such a supportive family and that you were able to use all this to your advantage for such great improvement. How did it affect your PN, if I may ask?

Yes, taking one, or a couple spaced out, short breaks down south during the height of a cold dark winter can make a big difference, physically and mentally. Perhaps consider a "winter home" since you probably have sun in summers.

One place to suggest for Vita D travel ... if you want something cost effective, hunt around for good airfare and stay in a health resort or use vrbo.com or airbnb.com to stay in the Puna area of the big island of Hawaii. This is a very affordable, downright cheap, area of the whole islands to stay. American's think of Hawaii of being just off the coast of California. The fact is that it is closer in latitude to Mexico City. Great, affordable place for Winter Vitamin D. Full of Minnesotans in winter.

As for PN improvement, at the time I had a couple of emotional meltdowns because I had some instances where I could see that my PN was much worse than I previous thought it was. However, later this year I have had some wonderful PN surprises, where my partner has looked at me and said "look you are (standing, walking, being in the cold, etc) much longer than a year ago ... you could never had done this a year ago". I have been considering writing a post titled "here's some evidence of hope for fellow chemo pn-ers", however, I don't want to jump the gun. I need to properly push myself and test out exactly what my limits are and if/how they have improved.

That is a rub, isn't it Natalie? An ebb and flow to symptoms as time passes, at least for me. I've found journals showing symptoms back to 2010 but 2011 is a year on medical paperwork. Last year was rough with some positive signs near the end.

Then some steps back. Nice to hear you have some encouraging things going on. We have rain turning to snow today with an unfrozen lake bringing lake effect snow for a week. woohoo. hah.

Best wishes for continued improvement!

Jon

Thanks, Natalie. I completely agree. I miss the sun so much. And yes, I meant a winter home, or what I meant was a summer home as in a home where it's summer now.

For us, Florida would be much cheaper, but I'll look into your suggestion. I think my wife would like this idea. I haven't traveled for pleasure since all this started. I can tell you this much: the moment summer comes, or spring for that matter, I'll make sure to walk out and get exposure religiously too. The lanolin has done amazing things for me, but I'm clearly having digestive upset. I will soon be trying D3 from lichen and hope that will stick. I can see such a huge difference with 1000 IU a day of D3. It's like a miracle drug. Mood, energy, symptoms, you name it. Amazing!

I'm so glad to hear you've had improvement, and without even noticing it. It's nice, isn't it? I hope you continue to have such improvement. I'm going to emphasize D and get it whenever I can. Your ray of hope is very welcome. I will have my numbers tested in the next month or two, to see where I'm at, and whether I've seen improvement.