Have you been taking thiamine long term for the tingles, jangles and occasional numbs of PN? You have? So did I. For three years, almost, with few breaks.

Flash forward. Moral of the story: too much of one B vitamin will inevitably cause depletion of another. So tingles may at first vanish, when taking B1. But then reappear. And no amount of B1 seems to stop them. It's because B1 has caused a co-depletion of another vitamin, one which will exhibit the exact same symptoms, when deplete. After all, nerves have a very limited vocabulary - a patois of tingles, jangles, buzzes, pains and numbs. That's all they can use to tell you something is too much, or too little.

I was here some time back. Mentioned all my research findings and elaborated laboriously on every tick, twitch and ailment. Then things seemed to get better, once I stopped taking every vitamin. (B1, B3, some B5, but not enough; B everything else, including B12).

Then, feeling "okayish" I started working out again.

Alas. Within 5 weeks of starting relatively high intensity daily training, the tingles returned and reached higher up my legs and arms than ever. Up to my hip. Eek! Up to my elbows. Double eek! Even so, at this time, I took small daily hits of B1, as an adjunct to training, sensing I would need it.

I thought, "OK. Maybe I am on too much B1?" (Dosage was 50mg). Then, I hypothesized - oh holy mercy - maybe it is NOT enough?

I took a massive hit of B1 - 400mg at once, and whaddya know? EVERY symptom stopped. DEAD.

On studying this, I came across medical journal articles courtesy of National Center for Biotechnology Information

Conclusion? Yes! Especially when B1 has crept low, you can tell, as a rough guide, the field medicine approach and take a bit hit of B1. If symptoms resolves, bingo. You got it right.

I got it right.

I looked up what is done in the case of thiamine deficiency. Shots, sometimes three in a row... I looked up equivalences between shots and oral therapy. Found a good article, and spent the next three weeks hitting myself with B1 five times daily (oral- since I didnt want to shoot myself).

Then? Symptoms resolved. Muscle tone was still not right. Put it down to the recent B1 deficiency.

Then - symptoms "Came back."

Ah, but they did not come back as a result of "B1 not working anymore."

I experimented until I found the connection - and this is VITAL, if you want to escape the carousel of tingling that seems unremitting.

B1 DROPS B5 (pantothenic acid) levels. It also manifests in muscular weakness, NEUROGENIC ATROPHY, manifesting as "muscle wasting" (bingo- this is why my muscle tone was down, even after starting B1 therapy).

Remember all those times you (might have been told) your quadriceps power was gone because of B1 deficiency? Which you should have been told, had you a good doctor. (Australia has no good doctors, and so no one told me that. I researched it). It is also a clear sign of B5 deficiency.

Solution? I ate (crunch crunch meets sublingual) 250mg of B5 "As required." Pretty easy to know when you require it, the tingles come back, and B5 sends them away again.

Then, once again, I was completely symptom free. More, I felt amazing. 24 hours after starting high dosage B5 therapy, I ran, yes RAN, which I had not been able to do since the onset of most recent B1 deficit. I proclaimed to all, I feel better than I did, even prior to my first episode of this crappy disease (meaning PN - first symptom, April 3, 2014).

I was symptom free.

THEN... Twists and turns, dear reader. Then, something was not right. Tingles and other signs came back for a third time. Too much B1? No. I had backed off, well off. Too little B1? Nope. Guaranteed - had I taken any B1, my tingles would have flared up again, while dealing with B5 deficiency. B1 would have either been too high in its own right, or it would have lowered B5. The symptoms are exactly the same. Then?

The answer was B7. Biotin. (Look out, because they sell a lot of crap on the internet, because it is some latest sporting craze or other).

Big doses of biotin (I took 30mg first day) brought back the symptoms to zero. I also had old symptoms reappear when B1 or B5 were out of adjustment - such as numbness of R outer sole. With B1, B5 and B7 finally in order, I could feel FULLY the carpet, the temperature of the slate floor tiles - EVERYTHING I COULD NOT F'ING FEEL FOR THREE YEARS!

So, then. To answer the quacks who push high dosage of any ONE B vitamin: THIS is NOT the definitive solution at all. High dosage of any one vitamin will cause lowering of an/other vitamin or vitamins - in my case B5, which then became B7 deficiency.

It would be great to say that a regular multivitamin (what a freaking plethora of those there are, all with different amounts and ratios of everything- a freaking nightmare) would do the trick.

BUT, if you are B1 deficient or have been in the past - get ready, because most likely you will be B1 deficient again - then you will need proper dosages of B1 to combat the first "layer" of symptoms: you will need dosages akin to or better than those prescribed for Dry Beri Beri.

BUT, you must have other B vitamins in harmonious dosages with this, or it will just seem like it is never working. "I still have the tingles!" It will be because something else, if all you did was ride on high B1, another B vitamin is now pulled out of balance.

So, consider yourself about to make a super high potency multi-B. But, let's be careful - some Bs do not like each other. So, be prepared to make 2 kinds of Super-B multi. (Keep B7 and B5 apart - for reasons given below).

What ratios? Aah. I'm still working on that. To this hour:

Today, I have taken 150mcg of B7, (we start at the "end of the depleted B constellation," and work back in. PN people are geniuses. You will be working on this already, I know. We are geniuses, because we have had to figure all this out, ourselves!)

NOW BE CAREFUL: B7 and B5 use the one and same transport system in the body. They cancel each other out! Be extra careful, if you are foolish like me, and consume raw eggs regularly for protein. Raw eggs contain avidin which is unfriendly to guess which vitamin? B7.

So, 600mcg of B7 has a half life of 110 minutes. If you take 4 x 150mcg pills (if indicated), then you would wait approx. 2 hours for your blood serum level of B7 to reach a half of the initial serum level. Stands to reason that B7 is absorbed rather quickly, its odyssey onboard your personal ship is a brief one. Take this first

Ok. Once we allow for timing B5 appropriately, we may at first benefit from even up to 1000mg a day, divided doses, taken when tingles get your nerves on... no, no, bad pun. You will notice within 20 or so minutes a splendid tranquility, a relief from your paresthesias - IF B5 is indicated in your case.

Today, as I am tapering to find optimal levels of each vitamin, (hopefully that will some day soon equate to zero supplemental vitamins daily). I have taken 180mg of B5. (This was only to test out if I had a personal case of B5 being still too low and interfering with my muscle tone - something that B1 can also do, in excess or when deficiency is present).

My advice: take B7 first, before B5. Take three or four hours apart, depending on your B7 dose. Then take B5. 150mcg B7 plays ok with 120mg of B5, in my case. A good prescription written by someone in behalf of recovering alcoholics indicates a golden ratio is about 250mg B5 for 300mcg of B7. My B5 has become too high recently, in my case, hence my value for B5 daily is less.

Then, if you really need it, go to B1. For me, even though I had taken way too much B1 (following the ridiculous maxim of you cant take too much B1 and just take mega doses daily ad infinitum), 50mg daily seems to be just fine. I became a connoisseur of the tingles and intuition is there (along with a daily journal of symptoms and pills and times) to guide. So, when I feel like B1 is dipping, 50mg it is, and no harmful effects. IN fact, in certain cases, 50mg B1 daily is indicated for life. I may be one of those candidates.

IF you get numb, as a new symptom, or in new places, (for me- in distinct patches on forearms, welcome to my laboratory) this indicates B7 is too high, and producing clear signs of having pushed down B5 levels. By itself, B7 really only seems to cause palpitations, in my experience and in those of others. (Remember? They compete for uptake. It is like the Subway. Two crowds of people, some wearing yellow "Biotin is Me" shirts. Others wearing darker "Pantothenic Acid Alive" shirts. I dont know. But they cant all board the Sub. No, even NYC folks - these guys cant. They will compete for getting onboard that train).

When tingles predominate, and we are sure B5 and B7 are in focus, then it means B5 is predominating, and pushing down B7 levels. At some points in this experiment with me as primo lab rat I have taken up to 10mg of B7, and even 30mg at first, as I have said.


B1 : B5 : B7

Alright. So, somewhere in the order of

50mg : 250mg : 300mcg

And tailor-shaped for Algernon to be

50mg (if necessary) : 120mg : 150mcg

SEEMS TO WORK VERY WELL.


Constituents of those two Super-B multi complexes you are dying to make at home - two, because some dont play well together:

CONSTITUENTS and RATIONALES:

COMPLEX ONE:

B1 - the first port of call in dealing with loss of leg power, paresthesias, symptoms of peripheral neuropathy.
B2 - expect deficient in cases of alcohol and certain drug abuse, also necessary to metabolize B3, B6 and B9 and iron.
B5 - lowered by excessive B1 consumption, with similar symptoms of paresthesias, weakness, muscle wasting - as seen in B1 overuse and B1 deficiency
B9 - deficiency symptoms same as for B12, including feeling of tightness or rubber bands around thumbs or other body parts, inclusive of paresthesias, with sensory loss predominating over symptoms such as numbness. Also seems to reduce numbness caused by over-zealous use of B7 (or does B7 impact B9?)

COMPLEX TWO:

B3 - USE EXTREME CAUTION - Toxic to Liver. DO NOT USE if you have HYPOTENSION (low BP) OR hypothyroidism. Limit to 100mg daily, (IN DIVIDED DOSES), unless otherwise directed by a trusted health care professional.
B6 - USE CAUTION - can cause irreversible peripheral neuropathy. Deficiency and overuse symptoms indistinguishable, but include numbness, pain in feet or tingling or burning in feet. Deep lethargy and irritability (in my case, 50mg was enough to make me want to sleep 12 hours and rest a further 12. Was not needed).
B7 - excess use can lead to palpitations and signs of B5 deficiency, but necessary when taking high dosage B5
B12 - almost impossible to overdose. peripheral neuro, stocking-glove distribution of paresthesias; tightness or constricted feelings or feelings of body parts being 'fat;' optic atrophy, sphincter dysfunction- nutcracker esophagus, for eg. Moderate atrophy; tinnitus; palpitations, decreased vibratory sense, proprioception (am I pulling your finger up or down? Where is it now?) and temperature sense disturbance; atrophy and weakness; megaloblstic anemia, ataxia- are symptoms of deficiency.


POSSIBLE DOSAGES (possible, because you may need to adjust to get things just right for you. If symptoms are intense or long standing, start big. If moderate to lesser degree of symptoms, start small and work up until symptoms gone):

These I have personally trialed, and was taking for the longest time.


COMPLEX NUMBER ONE

B1 - 1600mg daily for 1 month (divided across 8 doses), then reduce to 800mg daily for a month (divided across 4 doses); Then 400mg (4 doses) for two weeks, then 200mg daily for two weeks (4 doses). Then to 100mg daily (two to four doses, as preferred) for two weeks. Then to 50mg daily, single dose.

B2 - 100mg daily (4 doses of 25mg) or 25mg daily (as indicated).
B5 - This will tamper with other Bs quickly in high doses. 1 week to 2 weeks tops on 1000mg daily (as indicated. Reduce immediately on tingling increasing). Aim for a steady 100mg - 120mg daily, in conjunction with 150mcg of B7.

B9 - 2 x 400mcg doses daily (pregnant teens, pregnant ladies and people with greater needs will take up to 1300mcg daily).


COMPLEX NUMBER TWO

B3 - USE EXTREME CAUTION - Limit to 100mg daily IN DIVIDED DOSES, unless otherwise directed by a trusted health care professional.
B6 - USE CAUTION - can cause irreversible peripheral neuropathy. IFF deficient or when suspecting deficiency please proceed as follows:

For vitamin B6 deficiency in adults: the typical dose is 2.5-25 mg daily for three weeks, then 1.5-2.5 mg per day as maintenance treatment.
For vitamin B6 deficiency in women taking birth control pills: the dose is 25-30 mg per day.

DO NOT PROLONG USE!

B7 - 300mcg daily (single dose), indicated when high B5 dosages are used.

B12 - 2000mcg daily. If absolutely no benefit, (ie., paresthesias and other symptoms seem not to be caused by a lack of B12), then discontinue use.

It seems, from what I have gleaned, that different people differ in terms of deficiency. One may have a marked tendency toward B1 deficiency. Another may have a marked tendency to a B5 deficiency, for which symptoms then are blamed on B1 deficiency. Everyone is different. Proceed with caution, and never prolong use of anything when you are certain (or test results categorically prove) that it is not doing anything.

ONLY TAKE VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS WHEN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. THIS INFORMATION IS FOR 'ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES' ONLY. WHILE I HAVE PERSONALLY TAKEN THESE EXACT COMPLEXES, I AM NOT A HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONAL. I am also dedicated to helping others and myself and as such am still targeting the "golden ratio" of the vitamins about which I talk (and talk and talk) here.

(And timing us out is a bit freaking childish, when some cant even feel or use their hands properly. Adjust it, please, admins. I was once the proud owner of 3 BBs).

There are several genetic errors that occur with the B complex family.

I think getting a DNA test for them might be valuable for you. There could be data on several things that you never knew you had.

One of our members here has a genetic error processing Biotin and found out via DNA tests.

Also to avoid being "timed out" when posting longish posts, Hit the "remember me" little box in the upper right of the log in area, and you will not be bumped off.

Basically, all people have unique biochemistry issues that require
careful evaluation when there are differences in metabolism.

Also many drug therapies interfere with vitamins and minerals.
You can investigate this with some websites. Alcohol consumption can create vitamin deficiencies too.

Drugs.com has a nutrient/drug side effect database.
Drug Interactions Checker - For Drugs, Food & Alcohol