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Old 04-18-2008, 05:37 AM #21
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Lightbulb I am becoming more and more

interested in mitochondrial failure. A lot research being done today is
pointing in that direction.

1) nerve damage from HIV drug prevention is mito in nature. We've known this for a decade now.
2) the new autism research is pointing to mito failures induced by vaccines in babies.
3) We now know that statins damage mitochondria..and that is probably how they induce PN as a side effect.

If the autism research shows this is a direct link (which I think is very likely),
then ADULTS who get that dreaded flu vaccine every year are exposing themselves to this stressor. The genetics research will help with this, and it might be that certain people with certain combinations of genes are more prone to mitochondrial issues.

Dr. Bruce Ames who developed the Ames test for carcinogens that our FDA uses still, is researching aging. I used to have a paper of his, that I put up about his beliefs that mito damage can be minimized with nutrients. He actually makes a supplement called Juvenon.
If you Google that product there are many papers on that site to explain how this works. But because it is a commercial site, I won't
link to it (there are rules here about that). It is easy to find.
Here is one abstract of his work:
Quote:
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 959:133-166 (2002)
© 2002 New York Academy of Sciences

Delaying Brain Mitochondrial Decay and Aging with Mitochondrial Antioxidants and Metabolites

JIANKANG LIUa, HANI ATAMNAa, HIROHIKO KURATSUNEb AND BRUCE N. AMESa

aDivision of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA and Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute, Oakland, California 94609, USA
bDepartment of Hematology and Oncology, Osaka University, Osaka 565-0871, Japan

Address for correspondence: Professor Bruce Ames, Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute, 5700 Martin Luther King Jr. Way, Oakland, CA 94609. Voice: 510-450-7625; fax: 510-597-7128.
bnames@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 959: 133-166 (2002).

Mitochondria decay with age due to the oxidation of lipids, proteins, RNA, and DNA. Some of this decay can be reversed in aged animals by feeding them the mitochondrial metabolites acetylcarnitine and lipoic acid. In this review, we summarize our recent studies on the effects of these mitochondrial metabolites and mitochondrial antioxidants ({alpha}-phenyl-N-t-butyl nitrone and N-t-butyl hydroxylamine) on the age-associated mitochondrial decay of the brain of old rats, neuronal cells, and human diploid fibroblast cells. In feeding studies in old rats, these mitochondrial metabolites and antioxidants improve the age-associated decline of ambulatory activity and memory, partially restore mitochondrial structure and function, inhibit the age-associated increase of oxidative damage to lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids, elevate the levels of antioxidants, and restore the activity and substrate binding affinity of a key mitochondrial enzyme, carnitine acetyltrasferase. These mitochondrial metabolites and antioxidants protect neuronal cells from neurotoxin- and oxidant-induced toxicity and oxidative damage; delay the normal senescence of human diploid fibroblast cells, and inhibit oxidant-induced acceleration of senescence. These results suggest a plausible mechanism: with age, increased oxidative damage to proteins and lipid membranes, particularly in mitochondria, causes a deformation of structure of enzymes, with a consequent decrease of enzyme activity as well as substrate binding affinity for their substrates; an increased level of substrate restores the velocity of the reaction and restores mitochondrial function, thus delaying mitochondrial decay and aging. This loss of activity due to coenzyme or substrate binding appears to be true for a number of other enzymes as well, including mitochondrial complex III and IV.

Key Words: acetyl-l-carnitine • aging • brain • N-t-butyl hydroxylamine • lipoic acid • memory • mitochondria • neurotoxicity • oxidative damage • {alpha}-phenyl-N-t-butyl nitrone
from http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/conten...ract/959/1/133

He also has a paper out there on B-complex. I can't find it now, PubMed is down for maintenance. But in essence he believes that failures in B-complex metabolism account for many diseases we develop with aging. We do know now the folate system is very fragile and prone to failure (MTFHR) and must be helped along.

The nervous system gives us signals early on that something is not working right in our bodies. But when other organs fail (liver, kidney etc) there is a long lag before we get symptoms. So I think the signals just may be mito failures for many people. This signaling by the nervous
is sort of a bells/alarm to pay attention!

Many papers are on PubMed:
Use these keywords:
Ames B + antioxidants
Ames B + mitochondria
Ames B

example:
Quote:
J Cell Mol Med. 2008 Mar 28 [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Neuronal mitochondrial amelioration by feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to aged rats.
Aliev G, Liu J, Shenk JC, Fischbach K, Pacheco GJ, Chen SG, Obrenovich ME, Ward WF, Richardson AG, Smith MA, Gasimov E, Perry G, Ames BN.

Department of Biology, College of Sciences, San Antonio, TX 78249, USA.

Brain function declines with age and is associated with diminishing mitochondrial integrity. The neuronal mitochondrial ultrastructural changes of young (4 mo) and old (21 mo) F344 rats supplemented with two mitochondrial metabolites, acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR, 0.2% [wt/vol] in the drinking water) and R-alpha-lipoic acid (LA, 0.1% (wt/wt) in the chow), were analyzed using qualitative and quantitative electron microscopy techniques. Two independent morphologists blinded to sample identity examined and scored all electron micrographs. Mitochondria were examined in each micrograph, and each structure was scored according to the degree of injury. Controls displayed an age-associated significant decrease in the number of intact mitochondria (p = 0.026) as well as increase in mitochondria with broken cristae (p < 0.001) in the hippocampus as demonstrated by electron microscopic observations. Neuronal mitochondrial damage was associated with damage in vessel wall cells, especially vascular endothelial cells. Dietary supplementation of young and aged animals increased the proliferation of intact mitochondria and reduced the density of mitochondria associated with vacuoles and lipofuscin. Feeding old rats ALCAR and LA significantly reduced the number of severely damaged mitochondria (p = 0.02) and increased the number of intact mitochondria (p < 0.001) in the hippocampus. These results suggest that feeding ALCAR with LA may ameliorate age-associated mitochondrial ultrastructural decay, and are consistent with previous studies showing improved brain function.

PMID: 18373733 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
It is interesting to note that r-lipoic is showing up now in papers.
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Last edited by mrsD; 04-18-2008 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:01 PM #22
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My basic thinking on mitochondria is this: Lots of toxins work by poisoning the mitochondria, and it takes a large amount of energy to maintain the very long axons that eventually end in small fibers. So, if you don't know why you have neuropathy, it could be toxic, and your mitochondria might need help. Even if it's diabetic, and the increased sugar is harming the nerves, the mitochondria will have to work doubletime to grow those axons back.

On the sites about mitochondrial diseases, most of which can be quite miserable but some mild, the mainstay of treatment is acetyl L carnitine and CoQ10. I'm not sure where the lipoic acid fits in---where it is used, but it's the one supplement used abroad as a mainstay of treatment of daibetic neuropathy.








Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsd View Post
interested in mitochondrial failure. A lot research being done today is
pointing in that direction.

1) nerve damage from HIV drug prevention is mito in nature. We've known this for a decade now.
2) the new autism research is pointing to mito failures induced by vaccines in babies.
3) We now know that statins damage mitochondria..and that is probably how they induce PN as a side effect.

If the autism research shows this is a direct link (which I think is very likely),
then ADULTS who get that dreaded flu vaccine every year are exposing themselves to this stressor. The genetics research will help with this, and it might be that certain people with certain combinations of genes are more prone to mitochondrial issues.

Dr. Bruce Ames who developed the Ames test for carcinogens that our FDA uses still, is researching aging. I used to have a paper of his, that I put up about his beliefs that mito damage can be minimized with nutrients. He actually makes a supplement called Juvenon.
If you Google that product there are many papers on that site to explain how this works. But because it is a commercial site, I won't
link to it (there are rules here about that). It is easy to find.
Here is one abstract of his work:

from http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/conten...ract/959/1/133

He also has a paper out there on B-complex. I can't find it now, PubMed is down for maintenance. But in essence he believes that failures in B-complex metabolism account for many diseases we develop with aging. We do know now the folate system is very fragile and prone to failure (MTFHR) and must be helped along.

The nervous system gives us signals early on that something is not working right in our bodies. But when other organs fail (liver, kidney etc) there is a long lag before we get symptoms. So I think the signals just may be mito failures for many people. This signaling by the nervous
is sort of a bells/alarm to pay attention!

Many papers are on PubMed:
Use these keywords:
Ames B + antioxidants
Ames B + mitochondria
Ames B

example:


It is interesting to note that r-lipoic is showing up now in papers.
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--- LYME neuropathy diagnosed in 2009; considered "idiopathic" neuropathy 1996 - 2009
---s/p laminectomy and fusion L3/4/5 Feb 2006 for a synovial spinal cyst
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:43 PM #23
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A huge improvement here, from the original severe burning in my feet and up to my knees & those sharp electric type jabbing feelings and numbness in my feet to these days were i have no burning at all, no sharp jabbs and the numbness has nearly returned to normal, i can wear shoes, boots and can walk any distance.
I have no need to take any pain killer meds these days, i was on 300mg Tramadol SR x twice daily, only still take a much lessor dose of Endep at night but it doesn't make any difference when i have forgot to take it at times, it does help my sleeping so i have remained on it for that purpose only.

For the sake of newer members reading these posts, my PN was caused through a Prediabetic state & i was low in b12, an EMG showed some large nerve damage but mainly small nerve damage detected by Quanitive sensory testing & the obvious small nerve symptoms, a 3 hour Glucose tolerance test showed an above than normal response to a glucose challenge.

In my case correcting the insulin resistance by a sensible diet which included high fibre low GI foods and loosing weight, some exercise was needed and vitamins were B12 [mostly b12 Cynocobalaimin] only the last few months was able to get the preferred type of B12 " Methylcobalamin " and shots of b12 hydroxocobalain off my doctor, a multi B every day and vitamin C, i added Alpha Lipioc Acid only a couple months back which took care of the rare slight burning i had left.
Nerve's can heal if they are in the right environment.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:14 PM #24
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Default Where do I find your program?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing42 View Post
in spite of a negative prognosis from three neurologists. I was in severe pain and burning for years, with loss of balance, foot drop causing frequent stumbles, no ankle reflex in left and 50% in right, and hardly able to walk. The pain ranged from 6-8 on the 0-10 scale with breakthrough pain at 9 or 10 experienced as either electric zaps, or feeling like a carnivorous worm was eating at my toe and metatarsal joints. I also had extremely hypersensitive skin, and other areas where the skin was numb enough to stick a pin in.

Now, I walk or hike an average of 12,000 steps a day on my pedometer, have wonderful balance (not as good as in 1992, but I'm 65 yrs old now). My pain ranges from 0 to 4 with very occasional breakthrough pain in the 6 or 7 range, about 2 now as I type this. Both ankle reflexes were measured at 100%. There are still some mildly numb skin areas, but almost no hypersensitivity. I still show some neuropathy when tested with two points, tickle, and vibration. EMGs and nerve conduction tests have always been normal since my PN was small fiber sensory.

OK, it's not healed, but I can happily go through the rest of my life like this. No longer does the pain wakes me up, stop me from walking or driving, and is never so bad that it's hard to concentrate.

The program I've followed all these years is on page 3 of the stickies. There have been changes to it the past couple of years, but the the essential program hasn't changed. It's a hassle to edit old postings on this forum, but I'll work with a moderator to do so one of these months.

A CHANGE: I meant page 2 of the stickies. The neuropathy must be affecting what remains of my brain.

Help!!! Where do I find the program you followed. I don't know what you mean by the stickies?I have suffered from severe neuropathy since 1994. I have a spinal cord stimulator implant, use Duragesic narcotic pain patches (two 100 mcg patches every 72 hours) and have vicodin and morphine for breakthrough pain.
I have just had tarsal tunnel surgery with an implant in my foot which has eliminated some pain.
I lost my right leg due to a blister (I am diabetic) in Nov of 2005 four months after I lost my husband of 3 years to cancer.
I have thought if only I could have one day free of foot pain it would be so great. but I decided that it would not be good - if I ev er had a day free of pain I couldn't bear to go back.
Help.
JudyH
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Old 05-29-2008, 12:08 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnoldbk View Post
Help!!! Where do I find the program you followed. I don't know what you mean by the stickies?I have suffered from severe neuropathy since 1994. I have a spinal cord stimulator implant, use Duragesic narcotic pain patches (two 100 mcg patches every 72 hours) and have vicodin and morphine for breakthrough pain.
I have just had tarsal tunnel surgery with an implant in my foot which has eliminated some pain.
I lost my right leg due to a blister (I am diabetic) in Nov of 2005 four months after I lost my husband of 3 years to cancer.
I have thought if only I could have one day free of foot pain it would be so great. but I decided that it would not be good - if I ev er had a day free of pain I couldn't bear to go back.
Help.
JudyH
Hi Judy! You're in the stickies. The stickies are subjects of such importance that they're 'stuck' at the top of the board so everyone can always get to them. Go back to the main page of PN and the very first 3 topics are stickies. The one you want is the second topic. That contains a lot of info about different types of treatments and supplements, vitamins and other things that have helped people with PN.

Just to make sure you get there in one piece... http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/forum20.html
Also, notice at the beginning of a topic it says stickie?
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Old 06-19-2008, 11:05 AM #26
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Lightbulb bumping up

I am bumping this up to update the MetaFolin (methylfolate)
availability.

A person from the company Solgar has sent me a PM saying that OTC MetaFolin will be made by them, and is due out in late June '08 or so.

Methylfolate is available as FolaPro, by Metagenics, but it is very expensive. The Solgar product will not be that costly I am told.

Look for it at iherb.com ...I'll be leaving for the summer soon,
and will not be able to do computer stuff (no electricity etc) so
some of you will have to watch for it.
I'll look for it in September when I return.
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:12 PM #27
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Default Never give up researching.

I was a member of the old forum for a long time. Zocor caused my Neuropathy
in 1999. It use to say it on the box but no one would beleave me. When my pain was 10 all the time i wanted to die. I prayed and Jesus helped me get in touch with a friend and he told me to find a chiropractor with a high voltage therapy machine.I found one and the machine went to 400 volts.Five treatments before i could feel the 400 volts. 43 more treatments and i could only stand 15 volts. Bought me a TENS and use it most every day.

I take most of the vitamins recommended but only after i research them.I took 240mg of morphine for 4 years. Last year i lowered slowly to 60mg.
Go to a new pain doctor and he put me on Lyrica and it is helping more than the morphine. The bottoms of my feet are still sore and can;t walk to much but my pain is 1-2.

I am going to heal my self of this horrible desease or die trying. I am 76.
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:15 PM #28
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Wow! Great story of what you've been through! I'm glad you're doing so much better. We *can* heal from some of this. And that gives the rest of the people that come here and are newly Dx, hope.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:13 PM #29
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Smirk What is MSM and NAC

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasgeek View Post
Thanks, Liza for posting. It is good to post positive stuff too. You've probably spread a bit hope around, not a bad thing.

Yes, I agree. My neuropathy has definitely healed too somewhat but it has been a slow process and at first I didn't even recognize that it was actually getting better. But when I stop and remember how much pain I used to feel walking the dogs for a couple of blocks. I would limp and have sharp shooting pains along with other kinds of pains and have to go very slow and be in a fair amount of pain overall.

It has been quite a while since walking the dogs has caused me very much discomfort. There is definitely still numbness but I don't get totally wiped out after going grocery shopping or shopping of any kind like I used to.

I have struggled to stay off the pain meds and it looks like I may succeed. I take aspirin now and then when I may have one of my bad days but mostly I do the B12, Bcomplex, benfotiamine (which may be the real reason for the healing IMO, don't know for sure) and ALC, ALA, MSM, Glucosamine, NAC, and lots and lots of other vitamins and supplements.

I have stayed away from doctors for a couple of years now, so I have no recent nerve velocity test to compare. Will probably try that again just for a checkup but I HATE doctors so much, they might cause me to have a relapse.

Texasgeek - what is MSM and NAC that you reference in your post? I found the list for mrsD of supplements know to help but can't find those two.

Thanks for much for your help...
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:48 PM #30
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Confused What supplements did you take?

Tom -

I have read the list of supplements on the stickie and am anxious to get started on them. However, newly being diagosed I am still going through the tests to see if the cause can be determined. Can you advise which of the supplements did you take? All of them? Will you share the cause of your PN?

Thank you!
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