I think you are right and the reason is:

"Muscle and nerve cells are big users of ATP. Nerve cells consume large amounts of glucose, which they use for production of ATP by aerobic respiration.

. . .

"In nerves, ATP is used mostly for active transport of sodium (Na+) and potassium (K+) ions but also drives secretion of neurotransmitter chemicals by the endomembrane system."

http://www.uwyo.edu/bio1000skh/lecture17.htm

I always wondered why my nerves didn't do their job properly when I was exhausted.

I wish I could see some research on exactly how much ATP nerves actually use.

---

Before I forget, here's something interesting on mitochondria:

"The long-term presence of excess cytokines is very damaging, and many scientific antennae are now tuned into cytokines as the factor which prevents mitochondria from repairing themselves. Major stimulants of excess cytokine production certainly include viruses and other infections, but once the infection has healed, cytokine production should cease. In M.E., arthritis and other chronic diseases for some reason it appears that it does not."

So before anyone spends a lot of money on mito support products, it may be worth getting a blood test first, esp. if anyone with CFS, or those who can't afford a slow recovery.

---

On a list of things Mg does, in a previous thread (on PD):

I wonder if this could explain the common problem of those with peripheral neuropathy, i.e., getting too hot, and failure to sweat.

Say the ATP breaks down as heat. Then it breaks down further, lacking the energy to complete the process of sweating to remove the heat, i.e., back-to-back failures.

I have a chronic problem of skin heating up where nerve damage apparently was done.

I don't see how the heat could be there, esp. as high as the temp gets, unless there's a lot of energy involved. It could also explain chronic fatigue, i.e., the conversion of ATP is chronically impaired, like an energy 'parasite.'

Minding your Mitochondria ~Video:
 

The PD forum has this, and now the MS forum posted it.

I thought to bump this thread for us too:

http://www.wimp.com/mindingmitochondria/

^^That's an amazing video. Wow.

I don't know how anybody eats (or can afford) that much food every day, but I guess I'm going to try and find out.

P.S. Who's got good kale recipes here? :)

The only comment I have... is that for people with intolerances, it might be difficult.

I cannot do cabbage... haven't been able for YEARS.
But I have that twisted GI tract from birth, which is pretty rare, that others don't. For those who cannot digest this much veggies I suggest BEANO. I use it now when I have lots of gas producing veggies. (but I still cannot tolerate cabbage). Lots of cabbage and its relatives may also suppress thyroid functions.
http://www.marysherbs.com/Miscellane...egetablesP.htm
One can obtain lots of sulfur from eggs. And nuts:
http://healthyeatingclub.com/info/bo...ta/data5g.html
If you look at this chart you'll see sulfur can be had from many other foods in larger amounts that in the veggies she listed.
Here is iodine:
http://healthyeatingclub.com/info/bo...ta/data5k.html

Also something to consider: When you eat alot of vegetables, there are phytates in them that complex out zinc. Vegans therefore are at risk for becoming zinc deficient if they are not careful.

I also cannot do nightshades, esp the peppers. I can avoid potatoes without much difficulty.

I do see she eliminated gluten, and dairy...both are huge triggers in leaky gut, and could have been the real cause of her issues basically.

It was interesting seeing her chart on nutrients that are commonly low in the US.

Doctors go thru intense training, in school and in their internship/residencies. No time for quality food intake or eating and sleeping. This alone could have triggered her MS.

I see her recommendations as useful, but perhaps not 100% applicable by everyone equally.

I have the Minding my Mitochondria books as well as other good books. I am paying close attention to Gycation. Terrible for nerves/body. Not just for people with high blood sugar problems. I have never had that.

I am responding so well to Alpha Lipoic Acid (Slow release ALA MAX by Xymogen) and Benfotiamine (Fat/water soluble B1) that my integrative MD told me to really be careful about sugar and look into a book by Dr. Steven Gundry so I have that as well as others.

I take a lot of supplements for CFS and POTS (Postural Orthostatic Tachy. Syndrome from Autonomic Neuropathy) and supporting mitochondria is so important for those problems. D Ribose, Carniclear, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Co Q10, ATP etc as well as well as healthful food is important. There is so much we can do to safely heal.

R-lipoic stablized is far better than old ALA.... you might want to try it. Far more absorbed, and faster onset with much less expense and milligrams. It is new... some manufacturers have not caught up with it yet. Doctor's Best brand is the most affordable with quality, and many of us use it now.

It is wonderful you are seeing results, Sally. I think our mitochondria take many hits from our environment and antibiotic use. ( and who knows what else!)

That is what is thought sometimes but what I take is the best. My integrative doctors are on top of all of the studies and brands etc. Thank goodness.

I think quote sums up my problem:

“Increased oxidative damage from diminished mitochondrial function has been shown to trigger inflammation and launch protein-destroying enzymes into action.” -LEF

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/...-Damage_02.htm

My heat problems are local but progressive and always follow low-ATP-related stress, esp. after sleep disruption.

I am a member of LEF. Such great information. On the page above, they also talk about Benfotiamine. That is one of my favorites up there with Alpha Lipoic Acid for nerve health.

I agree about the Benfotiamine. I use 150mg a day. It has been useful for me too.

LEF also is now newly offering stablized R-lipoic acid:
they call theirs "super".

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...poic-Acid.html

The ALAMAX Cr by Xymogen is the Alpha Lipoic Acid my integrative doctor likes the best. That is 600mg of slow release.

In the afternoon, I take a 300mg of another brand.

I buy my Whey Protein and my Benfotiamine from LEF. My doctor likes those from LEF.

@Sally: Granted, we are talking about ALA, not r-lipoic, but these doses are higher than I would have expected.

@everyone: What is the current consensus about daily doses for ALA and r-lipoic?

Looks like the ALA MAX has both kinds of Lipoic Acid.I think the one I take in the afternoon is the reg. Alpha Lipoic Acid. Designs for Health brand. For healing neuropathy the dose is 600-1800mg.

My Xymogen is good since it has the Biotin. Designs for Health does too. Biotin can be low when taking Alpha Lipoic Acid.



http://www.xymogen.com/2008/formula.asp?code=000096

I'm trying their Super stuff now. But I'm taking so many supplements it's difficult to know what all is working, and which stuff is doing the heavy lifting.

Here's a quote from a fascinating article I just read on mitochondria:

Yes, that is really fascinating. Thanks for posting it!

Your mitochondria only carry DNA from your maternal ancestors.
They do not have YOUR DNA in them.

This thread just gets more interesting every day IMO!

I saw a new naturopath today. She's better than the last one -- more scientific and into advanced diagnostics. Her background is in medical research, which I thought was ideal (and better than other local NDs). We talked about the basics and mitochondria testing.

I've also looked at Dr. Sarah Myhill's mito testing, but it may be more expensive, and certainly more complicated. She says you're supposed to ask the courier to keep the blood samples in the cockpit (!) or somewhere not in the hold; otherwise the samples get ruined. I'd rather not have to take chances on communication or somebody's memory. Hopefully I can find something closer and convenient.

They drew four vials; two are for local Gamma/Dynacare basic tests; two were Fedexed out today for SpectraCell Laboratories.

The first test is for most of the basic minerals and heavy metals.

She seemed to think the heat issue could be related to constantly stimulated, albeit modestly, adrenal glands. She had a diagram and the idea sounded reasonable. (I seem to feel warmer after stress.) We're starting with saliva testing but also looking into the source, be it a toxin, allergen, whatever--perhaps a combination of factors. The SpectraCell results are to be expected in a few weeks.

Omega 3/Fatty Acid tests are also being considered for the future. I told her I want my membranes tested and she has an Oxidata panel I'd check out later when the kit arrives. It is supposed to reveal info on how badly anti-oxidants are needed. It's not free but it sounds radical. :)

Cells' energy factories linked to damaging inflammation

"Scientists have discovered that molecules called reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by the energy factories, or mitochondria, in cells, may play a role in a rare inherited disorder in which uncontrolled inflammation damages the body’s tissues."

"If not controlled, inflammation can lead to amyloidosis, a buildup of inflammatory proteins that can result in organ damage."

Mrs. D,
Is there a test to determine if your mito is damaged? If yes, what is it called?

Thanks, as always.

For people with DNA genetic damage to mitochondria there are muscle biopsies to determine if the mitochondria are missing etc.
The biopsies are complicated and have to be done in a special careful way too.

But for general purposes, no, there are no other specific tests that I know of.

For now we have only hints when you respond to mito support nutrients in a positive way, that implies mito functions are
compromised.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disord..._diseases.aspx

Thank you Mrs. D! I sincerely appreciate your help.

I read last night in one of the posts here (sorry I forgot now who posted it or under what topic - since I started taking gabapentin, my memory really became bad) , it says about cruciferous vegetables not good for hypothyroidism. It also mentioned about it being steamed or eaten raw, does it mean that its okay to cook it in other ways e.g. sauteing.


Thank you.

All of the cabbage family have goitrogenic potential:
http://www.ithyroid.com/goitrogens.htm

I think it is a matter of degree--of how much consumed... and I don't think cooking changes this potential. Some is probably okay, but excessive amounts would be problematic.

Thank you Mrs. D.

[QUOTE=NeuroLogic;838081]I think you are right and the reason is:

"The long-term presence of excess cytokines is very damaging, and many scientific antennae are now tuned into cytokines as the factor which prevents mitochondria from repairing themselves. Major stimulants of excess cytokine production certainly include viruses and other infections, but once the infection has healed, cytokine production should cease. In M.E., arthritis and other chronic diseases for some reason it appears that it does not."

I wonder if my osteoarthritis in my fingers the culprit of my neuropathy. Before the onset of my symptoms, I was taking Plaquenil. On my 7th week, I had the terrible, painful pins and needles in my legs and arms and back. My rheumatologist asked me to stop Plaquenil. But even when I stopped the medicine, my symptoms progressed. I stopped seeing my rheuma and I am now concentrated on my neuropathy, pursuing on tests after tests; referrals after referrals to specialists. I thought of suspending my treatment of the osteoarthritis as it might aggravate the nerves. What is your thoughts on this?

I wonder if this could explain the common problem of those with peripheral neuropathy, i.e., getting too hot, and failure to sweat.

I dont sweat. The only time I sweat (a little) is when I am on my last minutes of doing my stationary bicycle. However, I have this problem of constantly feeling cold. Its hard to describe the sensation because the cold feeling is not in my whole body. Its just on the areas where the prickly and stabbing pins and needles are concentrated on - that is my legs and arms. The coldness will last only for seconds. I am so hypersensitive to cold objects.I dont know if this part of my - according to my neurologist SFN. The SFN is yet to be confirmed with my skin biopsy.

I will appreciate if you can share with me some of your thoughts.
Thank you.

Mrs. D,

May I ask if supplements/vitamins for either damage of mito or axon are the same, or are there specific supplements that work for mito only and another kind of supplements for axonal damage?

Thank you for reply.

Damage to axons involves repair of the myelin sheath. This is done with B12, methylfolate, B6 and essential fatty acids (fish/krill oil). Those are the basic core for repair. Antioxidants are also helpful.
Supplements listed on MS sites often have a long list of vitamins to help. There are many such sites with recommendations.
example:
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/m...sis-000111.htm

The mitochondria, involve chemical support of their functions.
CoQ-10, acetyl carnitine, lipoic acid, etc.
Information about mito support is still rather new and incomplete.

There is a whole book devoted to this written by a doctor. Dr. Terry Wahl's. It is called "Minding my Mitochondria." It is all about repairing the nerves and mitochondria. She had MS, badly and it is now actve and teaching others what she did. Lots of good videos from her on YouTube also.

Doesnt resveratrol stimulate mitochondria ?

see here

m

Many antioxidants can help mitochondria as they quench oxygen free radicals that result from the chemical reactions that make ATP (energy). The list is very long, including resevertrol, grapeseed extract and curcumin etc. Lots of foods contain antioxidants...like strawberries and blueberries. Any fruit or veggie of "color".

I just read this today on another forum I like to snoop on.

Interestingly the bottom poster who had been taking them for statin damage seems to have had good results.

m

Another interesting thread elsewhere

I responded well to lithium orotate but it also relaxed my smooth muscle which gives me big problems:(
Huperzine - never tried but I know its very pop with the Nootropic crowd
Agmatine - again never tried ( I use Arginine for muscoskeletal issues )
Progesterone - wild yam seem to have a negative effect for me.
N20 - Too many bad side effects

m

I've been trying to figure out the mito-thyroid-adrenal connection, and came across this interesting new theory, which is so basic, yet seems so profound:

“Most of the day’s cortisol is made in the last four hours of sleep, i.e. the four hours before you normally wake up. So, for example, if one normally wakes up around 8 am, most cortisol is made from 4 -8 am. i.e. that four hour window is when your adrenals work the hardest. Just like ANY organ in your body, your adrenals are made up of cells. And ALL cells in your body need T3. The adrenals need T3 and especially during that four hour window before one wakes up. And, says Robinson, you can’t really expect your adrenals to work well if the mitochondria that make ATP for those cells and the cell nuclei have an inadequate level of T3 thyroid hormone. With the above in mind, it made sense that if adrenals are struggling, they clearly need T3 in that early morning 4-hour window in order to function better.”

(http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...-for-adrenals/)

(As you may recall, I usually wake up every day after four hours of sleep, and then feel tired - no doubt because my adrenals didn't get a chance to create enough cortisol, etc.)

I have been trying to feed the cells with magnesium solution and mito supplements, but it's not enough, so now I'm looking into T3. I presume it is much more powerful than MgCl and Mito supplements.

I'm trying to find a local naturopath who is in the know about the latest protocols treating hypothyroidism such as this new theory, but apparently they are difficult to find.

My current ND seems to be stuck on the controversial Wilson's Syndrome, evidently because they teach that in ND school.

There's another thread on this board about treating PN with T3:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread110830.html

I'd settle the energy boost, but would be more than happy if it fixes my nerves, too.

It was MrsD who first alerted me to the fact that all cells need T3, so I did more research on it and paid more attention when the subject came up. (Cheers, again.)

I take many wonderful supplements since I have CFS and POTS. Thyroid is one of them. VERY important. I get my levels of that, hormones and everything else tested twice a year.

Hormones have been important also. Cells need a balance of all nutrients that make us as healthy as we can be. Especially with Chronic illnesses like I have. I work hard to keep improving.

Integrative MD's are the most wonderful people! :DScientists- always learning, unlike most reg. doctors that just write scripts.

Zinc and selenium are the cofactors in converting T4 to T3 in the tissues.

T3 has a very short half life, and this is one reason, it is not favored by endos too much.

Thyroid hormone is very complex, and IMO the medical community does not do a very good job replacing it with external hormones.

One thing that does stimulate cortisol release is food. So when you wake up (it is likely due to a drop in blood sugar which is a stressor.
At that point if you have a small snack..say 200 cal or less, you will then be able to go back to sleep I bet. This happens to me if I go to bed early, say at 8pm, instead of 10-11pm. I've done
sugar testing all night a few times and found my low at 1am.

Cortisol in the body, is highest after breakfast and after supper.

John Hopkins article on mitochrondial aging:
 

Thanks to Nervous1 for finding this:

http://archive.gazette.jhu.edu/2011/...or-neuropathy/

This is what Dr. Wahl's talks about in her book. "Minding my Mitochondria." Mitochondria is the center if many illnesses, the powershouses of the cells. The writer needs to remember that drugs can give you the problems and food, supplements, clean environment are the key.Thankfully, the supplements we talk about all work together. It does take quite a few to do it.

So, how can we max out our mitochondria-targeted supplements?

Hey mrsD,

Could you please let me know what brand/type/dose mag you use? I am ready to add this but don't know exactly what to get? I cramp quite often and it keeps me from being able to exercise regularly. I think chelated is a supposed good option...

Thanks
Nervous1

I'm taking plenty of magnesium and my cholesterol is slightly elevated (for the first time in my life).

I use the lotion now for most of my magnesium. My GI tract is very sensitive to it. Even the magnesium oxide in Crystal Light powder can set me off.

I try to get my mag from nuts, and beans, and yogurt etc.
When I do take a supplement I use SlowMag (mostly the generic form called Mag64.)

If you suspect mitochondrial damage, then d-ribose, acetyl carnitine, CoQ-10 and biotin are your supplements.

All of these are more expensive than the B12 and thiamine (benfotiamine), and omega-3's, and other vitamins.

Dr. Wahl's diet includes large amounts of colorful vegetables with antioxidant properties as well. She leans heavily on sulfurous veggies like broccoli and kale, also.

Anyone who suspects mito damage will have to stop using drugs that damage them, like the fluoroquinolones, and statins.(and other less common ones). Stop smoking also which affects blood circulation to the periphery, and which contains many toxins in the smoke as well.

Dr. Bruce Ames made his supplement Juvenon, for this express purpose. He believes also that faulty B-complex metabolism in the cells is also a cause of mito decay. If you search him, you'll find his website which has alot of detailed information on it.