[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

@julleri:

What are you doing for that SSRI withdrawal?

There are things you can do to help this you know. So please tell me what you are doing so far. Are you off them 100%?

Hi MrsD,

I'm exactly three months off of Prozac. I had to stop it as in October 2011, I tried to updose 5mg to 10mg. I did fine for a couple days, then things got worse. I got suicidal feelings, was very dizzy, nauseous, couldn't think, and had horrible confusion spells. It was a severe adverse reaction. I tried going back down to 5 mg, but in December I would still get these episodes. I tapered to around 2mg by mid February, but my nervous system felt like it was in a state of shock and pain (I'm now wondering if this was more low B12 related, but I will never know), that I decided I had to get off. I actually got on the Prozac in early 2011 to get me off 37.5 mg of Effexor Xr that I had spent years tapering from 300 mg! Needless to say, I have been in medication hell for the last several years.

I'm in a lot of therapy. I see my therapist several times a week. My money is almost gone (I'm single - no parents to take care of me, don't make much money either and have actually been in the red month-to-month for several years now), so I pay copays to her when I can. I am actually going to stop seeing my neurologist. One point - I don't like him. He wanted me back on psych meds saying I can't go on without them and he wanted me on a high dose of prednisone too. Secondly, I can't afford it. I'm getting medical bills in the mail that I didn't expect I'd get (I have insurance, but they're not covering everything).

I'm scared I have MS. My nerves hurt and it comes and goes. I get dizzy. My appetite is gone. I have frequent urination. I have spots in my vision. But I read all these can be symptoms of both SSRI adverse reactions and withdrawal and also b12 deficiency.

I had a good night last week Monday. A VERY good night. I felt almost like me again, that is, the me of 10 years ago, before psych meds. It gave me hope. But now I'm riddled with health anxiety, worried that I'm going to die, scared of this B12 deficiency business and worried that it has gone on for years (I thought everything I had been feeling over the last five years was related to these nasty psych drugs). I have a brother and aunt and uncle in Wisconsin, where I'm from, but that's it. Not sure how much they'd help me out if things became worse. Hope they don't.

Anyway, I am doing the therapy. I love my therapist and wish she were my medical doctor (she is so thorough and knows more than most therapists about drugs and vitamins/nutrients). She's been through a lot neurologically speaking. Has lost myelin sheath on an entire side of her body basically from getting a virus when she was in dental school. She was paralyzed for years but somehow it healed and came back and she can move those areas just fine - gives me hope for my minor nerve damage areas in comparison. She also had an adverse reaction to a drug so understands my fears. So, I have a good therapist. I live with roommates. Our lease ends soon and I am moving in with another friend and hopefully he'll be OK with how I am. He knows how i am but I'm worried he's not aware of just how bad I am in this state. I see improvements but they are so short-lived. And then there is the constant worrying and fear of another illness going on, but now I'm really out of resources to pursue more. People on an antidepressant support forum that I'm a part of tell me that I have health anxiety and that I really need to stop with the googling of diseases and seeing doctors. My therapist says I don't have MS and asks me if I really want to pursue this she knows top MS doctors in AZ and asks me "do you really want to have MS?" Of course I don't! I just want to know that I'm not getting it. But, given what I have been through with an adverse reaction to ssri, ssri withdrawal (now) and low B12, all of which can mimic it. I even saw that neurologist and he didn't make mention of it. In fact - he focused more on my anxiety than anything!

I pray to God, almost everyday, but not quite. I go to church. I call my aunt and uncle. I talk to my coworkers about what's going on. But day-to-day life is very hard right now. Hard to eat, VERY hard to think. I am in school because I took out massive student loans and can't afford to pay them back yet. I thought by now I'd have car and other stuff paid off and I never in a million years thought I'd get this sick. I sleep well, thank God. So, I sleep a lot. I walk. About all the exercise I can handle. I don't really know what else to do. My therapist has me on all these nutritious foods. No more caffeine (of course), no more alcohol. The worst thing I eat are these little dough things called Rugulach (never heard of it before till I met her) which has helped me gain some weight.

It's just hard not to worry about the nerve pains. I even had some sharp ones in my eye. Saw an eye doctor as an emergency - nothing wrong! Spots she said were normal and probably just floaters. Bloodwork is always normal from all these doctors.

sorry this is so long. It's just I feel so trapped in all these situations, you know? I'm 30! I want to be living life, looking for and working towards a career of some sort, a better job and better life, so that I can pay back my loans, live on my own, take care of myself, be who I want to be drug free! I didn't ask for Effexor XR withdrawals leading me to Prozac, which after several months eventually gave me an adverse reaction upon updosing. I also wish I had known about my B12 deficiency much earlier. I'm wondering if high folate has masked it for a long time, causing the damage but not making it apparent to me.

The website I belong to is www.paxilprogress.org. They're very supportive.

Anyway, that's what I'm going through, a bit of history, and what I'm doing for it. Thanks for asking. Very thoughtful of you.

Jason

[mrsD]

Sounds very difficult... I am sorry Jason you are having such a bad time.

So are you taking some form of SSRI now or not? I am unclear about that.

When you go off SSRIs...there are zaps and all sorts of things to deal with. Accept that and try not to get anxious about it.
Usually it clears up with time, as it is just your body adjusting.

You DO know that 90% of serotonin is in the body and not the brain? this is what leads to all the weird sensations for the most part. I know it is difficult if you have anxiety and/or other emotional burdens, but it will pass if you are patient.

There is no connection that I have ever seen between B12 and SSRI drugs. So don't worry about that.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

Sounds very difficult... I am sorry Jason you are having such a bad time.

So are you taking some form of SSRI now or not? I am unclear about that.

When you go off SSRIs...there are zaps and all sorts of things to deal with. Accept that and try not to get anxious about it.
Usually it clears up with time, as it is just your body adjusting.

You DO know that 90% of serotonin is in the body and not the brain? this is what leads to all the weird sensations for the most part. I know it is difficult if you have anxiety and/or other emotional burdens, but it will pass if you are patient.

There is no connection that I have ever seen between B12 and SSRI drugs. So don't worry about that.

Hi MrsD,

Not taking anything anymore. Never again. Not after what I've gone through.

I actually haven't had any brain zaps that I can solidly remember. Maybe a couple at most, but they've been so infrequent that I can't solidly say they were brain zaps. I do have lots of nerve pain, though. Maybe these are "body zaps"? I don't know. I have numb areas, patches on skin, some peripheral tingling sometimes, and some stinging/sharp shooting pains. Also parasthesias. I am aware that the majority of serotonin is found else where in the body, like the gut. And I notice a pattern with many people, that the time I'm in (3 months off) is notoriously horrendous, and that people start to see windows of relief a few to several months after that, then start to see solid improvements about one year off. Whew!

I can't believe I blindly trusted doctors and the things they put me on! Never again!

Thank you again for your concern. It's very thoughtful of you. I'll just keep taking my B12, as this is a totally unrelated situation. Both you and a moderator on the SSRI withdrawal board have pointed that out to me.

Jason

[mrsD]

Some people when they no longer are taking an SSRI can supplement with either l-tryptophan or 5-HTP.

This can cushion the withdrawal for some. I think the l-tryptophan is gentler in this regard.

Also some may find SAMe works. This stimulates neurotransmitter synthesis and may increase serotonin.

Ask for further info from me if you are interested. But I assume the other places you visit have already offered these ideas.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

Some people when they no longer are taking an SSRI can supplement with either l-tryptophan or 5-HTP.

This can cushion the withdrawal for some. I think the l-tryptophan is gentler in this regard.

Also some may find SAMe works. This stimulates neurotransmitter synthesis and may increase serotonin.

Ask for further info from me if you are interested. But I assume the other places you visit have already offered these ideas.

Thanks MrsD,

My therapist also recommended some of these things. Ironically, most members on the antidepressant forum caution against using these things, at least during the thick of withdrawal, as many are way too sensitive to even these things! And they aren't even drugs! That's how sensitive our systems have become (at least for many). I'm playing it safe and avoiding all things serotonergic for now. Food is my medicine (although today I'm pretty bad and haven't eaten much. Need to soon...). Trouble with this is there just isn't a fast and easy way. Time does the most healing. It's almost the same with B12 recovery I notice. You take the B12 but the healing isn't instant and it's so non linear.

Thanks again

[mrsD]

Normally in our bodies, l-tryptophan + B6 are involved in making Serotonin. MethylB12 is then involved with serotonin to make melatonin. So if you are having sleeping issues, taking some melatonin may help until your system starts making it again. Low B12 often results in poor sleeping. And that takes a while to fix itself too.

The SSRI drugs focus the serotonin on the synapse, and hence the cell eventually stops making more, and when the drug is removed suddenly, the cells have none in back up function.

Taking some tryptophan is often helpful to start things back up.
As I said it is more gentle than using 5-HTP which is faster and more like a drug. Taking the tryptophan away from meals will allow it to pass thru the blood brain barrier more effectively, as there is a competition with other amino acids there.

You don't even need it every day... starting at twice a week may slowly jumpstart your own synthesis.

[julleri]

I just got a call from the office of the neurologist I saw (the one I don't like), with numbers for B12 and B6. Good news, my B12 was 1,844! Bad news, my B6 was high, 47.9 (she said the range is 2.1 - 21.7).

High B6 can cause nerve pain, correct? I don't take any additional B6 other than what comes in my multivitamin, that Target Up & Up brand. I don't have the information in front of me so I don't know how much is in there. I want to say it's 100% or 150% RDA, but it's well below what can constitute daily toxic intake, I believe. I'll have to check.

Do you know anything about B6, MrsD, as it relates to nerve pain?

I am very happy about the B12 reading, though.

[mrsD]

The ranges were done many years ago, and were not done on people who take vitamins. So someone on vitamins would be expected to test higher than someone not taking them.

That is not really high. Most labs go up to 90 or 100 for B6 as normal. I wouldn't worry about it. You need some B6 to make serotonin. Recommendations today are to stay under 100mg a day of B6. I wouldn't worry about it at this time. You can stop your multivitamins if you want, if they are high in folic acid and B6, but that is really up to you.

I would think about magnesium however. Because when that is low, all sorts of nasty things happen, strange sensations, muscle twitches, muscle cramps, low energy etc.

One of the hundreds of chemical reactions in the body dependent on magnesium is making serotonin also.
http://www.kospublishing.com/html/mag.html

This is my B6 thread:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread30724.html

[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

The ranges were done many years ago, and were not done on people who take vitamins. So someone on vitamins would be expected to test higher than someone not taking them.

That is not really high. Most labs go up to 90 or 100 for B6 as normal. I wouldn't worry about it. You need some B6 to make serotonin. Recommendations today are to stay under 100mg a day of B6. I wouldn't worry about it at this time. You can stop your multivitamins if you want, if they are high in folic acid and B6, but that is really up to you.

I would think about magnesium however. Because when that is low, all sorts of nasty things happen, strange sensations, muscle twitches, muscle cramps, low energy etc.

One of the hundreds of chemical reactions in the body dependent on magnesium is making serotonin also.
http://www.kospublishing.com/html/mag.html

This is my B6 thread:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread30724.html

Hi MrsD,

I just came back from a follow up visit with the GI doctor I saw and he said that if anything I should work on getting the B12 DOWN. Of course I knew that this is ridiculous since there is no upper limit on B12. He wasn't concerned about the high B6, though, but I still am. He isn't a neurologist, though, so he may not know.

As far as my endoscopy is concerned everything he said is normal. And the bloodwork he took was normal, too. it did include magnesium. The level was 2.3, with a ref. range of 1.7 - 2.4 mg/dL. My zinc was normal too (forgot where I read it but sometimes people can get zinc deficiencies, too, which can be a problem).

I'm guessing then that nearly all (if not all entirely - probably) ... all of my symptoms are related to the adverse reaction I had to antidepressants and the withdrawal that I'm going through now. It's just so scary! The nerve pain for instance feels like little beestings on my skin. Parasthesias? And last night I had a terrible spell where I had little memory, could hardly think, felt totally unreal and like my brain was just deteriorating (like Alzhemiers or something). I still feel pretty shaken today from it. But at least all these tests are showing things not out of the ordinary anymore.

It does take a while after reaching high B12 levels for B12 to make serious positive changes in the body, too, I am gathering.

Anyway, just had to share what this doctor said with regards to "high B12" -- I thought of you when he said it was "too high" lol.

[mrsD]

I agree about the B12.... don't change anything there.

Doctors have "learned" to follow lab ranges, like blind men.
Even though they don't understand the ranges or how old they are or how they were developed.

Just because you were flagged high doesn't mean ANYTHING negative. It does mean you are absorbing the B12 and that is the only significant feature of that test.
There is not ONE study showing high B12 is harmful on PubMed over many many years in many countries. Our own FDA has no upper limit on B12 intake for this reason.

So your doctor is probably just misinformed. This is pretty common. My own doctor scoffed at me taking the 5mg oral Puritan's Pride methylB12... as a test. She claimed emphathically that B12 is not absorbed from supplements. Well I proved HER wrong. She was very sheepish with my test results of 1999 after 3 months.