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Old 01-13-2012, 08:52 PM #31
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I take my R-Lipoic with my Acetyl L-Carnitine and I have noticed a urine smell with doses of higher than 100 mg on the r-lipoic and higher than 500 mg ALC. I'm experimenting to see which one is causing it.

Smells a little like after I have eaten asparagus.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:11 PM #32
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Default MrsD, what is the most efficacious daily dose of th r-lipoic?

I take 100 mg and wonder if it's too low. Any suggestions?
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Old 01-14-2012, 05:44 AM #33
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Lightbulb

I take 100mg of the stabilized form too. I think it works.
Some of the charts I found on the web showing absorption, show the R-lipoic stabilized is far more absorbed than the old ALA.
http://www.geronova.com/node/61/doct...?theme=retzone
The Doctor's Best form has this trademark on the ingredients panel, in tiny print.

As the months pass...it seems to work slowly for me... I FEEL better, more alert, etc. I haven't had burning in my feet for a while now either.
My hands and feet are not as cold as they were last winter.
My A1C came down, but my fasting morning sugars are still a bit up. I may try adding another 100mg later in the day.
Taking 200mg all at once didn't agree with me and...made me irritable.
But perhaps dividing it up will work?

I was using another R-lipoic product, from SourceNaturals, and I guess it wasn't working as well (does not say stabilized on the label). We learn something everyday here! (including me).

I also use 150mg of Benfotiamine daily... and this combo may be also part of the reasons for my responses.

I take my R-lipoic on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.

Over the past decade these are the nutrients that have been improved upon, to deliver better response for people:

R-lipoic (improved Alpha lipoic acid)

Methylcobalamin (improved activated B12 (cyano synthetic) ))

P5P ( activated pyridoxine B6)

Benfotiamine ( improved longer acting thiamine B1)

Bioenhanced curcumin (improved over 95% extract)

Ubiquinol (improved CoQ-10)

Zinc monomethionine ( zinc sulfate which is very upsetting to GI)

acetyl carnitine (better absorbed than L-carnitine)

magnesium chelates (much improved over magnesium oxide)

I am running into a blank, at this point... too early in the morning I guess?
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Last edited by mrsD; 01-14-2012 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:50 AM #34
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Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsD View Post
Some of the charts I found on the web showing absorption, show the R-lipoic stabilized is far more absorbed than the old ALA.
http://www.geronova.com/node/61/doct...?theme=retzone
Hi mrsD,

Something bothers me about that chart, as well as getting study data from the company that mfrs./sells the product. I see that they're citing studies done by others, but IME, purveyors of products do tend to cite only studies that support their claims, even when there are other studies that contradict. (I'm not saying that's the case here - I don't know.)

The bar chart
http://www.geronova.com/content/bio-...uble-rla-salts
(is that the one you're referring to?) seems to indicate that Alpha Lipoic Acid is better absorbed than R-Lipoic Acid , when other sources have been telling us that RLA is better absorbed, and we're only needing 1/6 the dose as of ALA.

I guess I'd just feel better about it if there were corroborating independent studies. All those "improved" nutrients - I'm beginning to wonder if at least some of them aren't just so much smoke & mirrors...

Doc
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:03 AM #35
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Lightbulb

The way I see that bar graph is that RLA is 40 times more absorbable than ALA... If anything I think that is a stretch and I really don't think it is that much. Maybe 10 times or thereabouts?

Why the unstabilized is so low, is a mystery too. But lacking time to look elsewhere, I put that up as an example.

Also within the manufacturers is LEF which cleverly makes their product look like it has MORE NaRALA in it by listing the total weight of the salt in its ingredients! Doctor's best does not inflate their product this way, and labels it more accurately.
example: Doctor's Best says 143mg sodium RALA yielding 100mg/cap. LEF does the reverse!

Quote:
Serving Size 1 vegetarian capsule

Servings Per Container 60
Amount Per Serving

Sodium


30 mg

Bio-Enhanced® Stabilized Na-RALA sodium R-lipoate (providing 240 mg of R-Lipoic acid)


300 mg

Other ingredients: vegetable cellulose (capsule), rice flour, vegetable stearate.

Contains rice.
If you compare prices of both products there is not much saving using LEF (if you think you are getting 300mg/cap and that is 3 times what is in others--- which is not true. You only get 2.4 times more).

Labels and ingredients are really tricky! One always has to watch carefully.

Hubby is waiting for me now to go out with him. I'll look around later today, and get back to this thread if I find better data.
I don't really "love" that graph that much either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Smith View Post
Hi mrsD,

Something bothers me about that chart, as well as getting study data from the company that mfrs./sells the product. I see that they're citing studies done by others, but IME, purveyors of products do tend to cite only studies that support their claims, even when there are other studies that contradict. (I'm not saying that's the case here - I don't know.)

The bar chart
http://www.geronova.com/content/bio-...uble-rla-salts
(is that the one you're referring to?) seems to indicate that Alpha Lipoic Acid is better absorbed than R-Lipoic Acid , when other sources have been telling us that RLA is better absorbed, and we're only needing 1/6 the dose as of ALA.

I guess I'd just feel better about it if there were corroborating independent studies.

Doc
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:21 AM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsD View Post
The way I see that bar graph is that RLA is 40 times more absorbable than ALA...
To clarify, the bar chart shows stabilized RLA to be 40x more absorbable than ALA, but also shows ALA to be 4x - 5x more absorbable than "unstabilized" RLA.

I spoze it's possible that they transposed the unstabilized RLA and ALA labels, but that would be really (nigh unforgivably) sloppy... :disapproval:

Doc
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:25 PM #37
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This is the reason for that graph:

Quote:
Altern Med Rev. 2007 Dec;12(4):343-51.
The plasma pharmacokinetics of R-(+)-lipoic acid administered as sodium R-(+)-lipoate to healthy human subjects.
Carlson DA, Smith AR, Fischer SJ, Young KL, Packer L.
Source

GeroNova Research, Inc., 4677 Meade St, Richmond, California 94804, USA. david@geronova.com
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

The racemic mixture, RS-(+/-)-alpha-lipoic acid (rac-LA) has been utilized clinically and in a variety of disease models. Rac-LA and the natural form, R-lipoic acid (RLA), are widely available as nutritional supplements, marketed as antioxidants. Rac-LA sodium salt (NaLA) or rac-LA potassium salt (KLA) has been used to improve the aqueous solubility of LA. STUDY RATIONALE: Several in vitro and animal models of aging and age-related diseases have demonstrated efficacy for the oral solutions of LA salts in normalizing age-related changes to those of young animals. Other models and studies have demonstrated the superiority of RLA, the naturally occurring isomer over rac-LA. Despite this, RLA pharmacokinetics (PK) is not fully characterized in humans, and it is unknown whether the concentrations utilized in animal models can be achieved in vivo. Due to its tendency to polymerize, RLA is relatively unstable and suffers poor aqueous solubility, leading to poor absorption and low bioavailability. A preliminary study demonstrated the stability and bioavailability were improved by converting RLA to its sodium salt (NaRLA) and pre-dissolving it in water. The current study extends earlier findings from this laboratory and presents PK data for the 600-mg oral dosing of 12 healthy adult subjects given NaRLA. In addition, the effect of three consecutive doses was tested on a single subject relative to a one-time dosing in the same subject to determine whether plasma maximum concentration (Cmax) and the area under the plasma concentration versus time curve (AUC) values were comparable to those in animal studies and those achievable via intravenous infusions in humans.
METHODS:

Plasma RLA was separated from protein by a modification of a published method. Standard curves were generated from spiking known concentrations of RLA dissolved in ethanol and diluted in a phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) into each individual's baseline plasma to account for inter-individual differences in protein binding and to prevent denaturing of plasma proteins. Plasma RLA content was determined by the percent recovery using high-performance liquid chromatography (electrochemical/coulometric detection) (HPLC/ECD).
RESULTS:

As anticipated from the preliminary study, NaRLA is less prone to polymerization, completely soluble in water, and displays significantly higher Cmax and AUC values and decreased time to maximum concentration (Tmax) and T1/2 values than RLA or rac-LA. In order to significantly extend Cmax and AUC, it is possible to administer three 600-mg RLA doses (as NaRLA) at 15-minute intervals to achieve plasma concentrations similar to those from a slow (20-minute) infusion of LA. This is the first study to report negligible unbound RLA even at the highest achievable plasma concentrations.

PMID:
18069903
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Free full text
Now when I did my testing at home here on the SourceNaturals R-lipoic, which I posted on the Blaylock thread, it did become gummy and not soluble in the water. Perhaps the Alpha racemic mix separates the two isomers physically enough so that the R portion cannot hook up with itself into the gummy polymer? Heat seems to also encourage this polymerization too, since I did it with hot water. Since our bodies are warm inside, unstabilized may just not be absorbed?

Urinary excretion of ALA (regular type)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14551180

A 1998 paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876998
Quote:
CONCLUSION:

The lack of a significant difference between values for apparent total plasma clearance for the 200 and 600 mg doses indicates non-saturable kinetics of alpha-lipoic acid in healthy volunteers in this dose range. The absolute bioavailability after the 200 mg dose was 29.1 +/- 10.3%.
This article may be helpful for understanding Lipoic acid in general...some nice graphics too.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664690
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:20 PM #38
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I take ALA Max Cr by Xymogen, AMAZING. Also Benfotiamine by Life Extention. The brands my doctors like. I haven't been here in a long time. They have almost healed my feet completely. Brands and amounts are imporatnt. I am very thankful.
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:38 AM #39
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Interesting, ALA is a body building supplement in lower doses

http://www.bodybuilding4u.com/bodybu...ipoic-acid.htm
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:44 AM #40
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Yes, the bodybuilding community uses ALA and carnitine quite a bit.

I've started slowly increasing my RALA to 2 a day (200mg).
Splitting the dose up to 100mg in the morning and 100mg at 4pm before dinner, is working out so far.

I've added tryptophan again at night 500mg...and that is helping me sleep. I also made a "magnet pad" with 4 one inch neodyms in it to lie on in bed, to help my back pain. It seems to be working well. The hand sewing was tough on my hand, so it is wrist brace time for a couple of weeks at night for my carpal tunnel. I am experimenting with the pad style, and have some new mags coming from Amazon. My mix of PN and arthritis is quite painful in winter, esp when there are storms and Lows like these past few days.
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