Suicide in the Real World
 

Addy touched a nerve when she asked about Michaels "health".

One of the problems with losing a loved one to suicide is that a lot of it is guess work. Our son was a big, strong, physically healthy 31 yr. old with a good job, a big booming laugh.

Did he have problems?.....sure, money was always a problem and his fiancee had gone to Florida with her parents and was pressuring him for a ring. He also had a bad cold, half a bottle of brandy to drink, and the Bears lost.

Did he have a future? We all thought so...did he have plans, yes. did he leave a note? No.

Was he mentally ill? Not in our opinion...our being me, his dad, sisters and brothers in laws who he'd planned to go camping with the coming weekend.

So why did he pick up that gun and blow his head off? I'll never know for sure but in my heart I have concluded that it was an impulsive act. I had a lot of help coming to this conclusion...especially from my old friend PTer from OBT.

Why am I reacting so strongly to Addys' implication that Michael was "ill"....
because it's judgemental! The implication being that people who would complete suicide must be mentally ill....horribly depressed...etc.

I believe that he despaired at that moment and said "F*** It"

I started a thread years ago on OBT....The Ultimate F*** You was it's title and it offended more than a few people. But I wanted to make the point that a loved one killing themselves truly feels like the ultimate rejection.

So Addy, I guess I can't answer your question. :hug:

Each suicidal act, I think, has it's own reason. Desperation, depression, pain, who knows. Millions of reasons. Impulsive sometimes, yes. The last person I knew who killed himself had a myriad of problems going on. He was very altered, however, when he committed the final act. Altered on drugs and alcohol and very desperate. No money, wife left him and took kids, death of his closest friend, fired from his job, a very sick mother and more.

I think something as simple as being broke can lead you to take your own life. (if you can call being in debt and never having enough money simple!) I personally have thought many a time about how nice it would be to die so that I didn't have to deal with money problems anymore. But then I have the depression monster hovering around and that makes it worse.

I agree you don't have to be physically or mentally ill, but something is there that pushes you over the edge.

Exactly. There must be at least a moment of desperation. Suicide is a desperate act. I hope those that complete the act get the relief they wanted.

I think we have all had F*** it moments. I know I have.

Some just don't act on it. Others do. For those that do, I honestly believe most of them are no longer tormented. They are at peace from the demons that haunted them (whatever they may have been).



((((((Alffe))))))

In order for a suicide to be impulsive...one must have immediate access to the "solution" to the pain. Michael did...he had a gun right there. He had a permit to carry it for his job.

That's why I hate hand guns...easy access...very wrong decision. :(

Only this week did we learn that had he lived, he'd be the grandpa to a baby boy. How proud he would have been of that. Instead of enjoying his grandchld, he's left a legacy that he wouldn't have wanted. If only he had stopped to think! So what should only be a joyous event, is tinged with memories and pain.

My husband wondered why the baby wasn't named after our Michael. Who would want to name a newborn after someone who committed suicide? Put in that light, he agreed with me.

So the point is...don't kill yourself. don't leave those left behind this "forever pain."

:hug: alffe

the brandy..it had to play a big role. i know this is such a difficult subject for you hon. but alcohol can cause bad depression. even just a single night of overdoing it.

how many of us have had a night with friends..had a few drinks..and someboidy..if not us...starts to get sentimental..cries..or even gets really upset? i bet lots.

alcohol clouds your judgement. if it didn't who in their "right" mind would get in a car after drinking? or drink at a family gathering and put your family..your kids in your car?

i know you would have seen signs alffe.

i hope this new great grand baby gets the chance to know you and your wonderful family. :grouphug:

No question about it Curious...alchohol lowers your inhibitions, gives you false courage and impairs your judgement.

Difficult subject??? Understatement....

Thank you for your kind words about the baby Curious. :hug:

Alffe

It always sounded like an impulsive act to me too. It's why I stay away from narcotic drugs and alcohol - impaired judgment. It's the main reason I won't allow a gun in the house - too quick and easy.

I don't trust myself when I get depressed. :o My depression isn't a clinical mental illness - it's due to being terrified about the future. No pill or therapy will change my future. My depression surrounds my physical illness, but it's not really caused by my physical illness. There's no pill to cure my illness. My best bet to avoid suicide is to remain clean and defenseless.

I'm so sorry you had to lose your son in such a horrible way. :( I appreciate you sharing your story of Michael with us over the years. If you hadn't, chances are I wouldn't be here. :hug:

The guns. That's how the last suicide in our lives happened. One of 3 that used guns. A 4th one used a shotgun. The friend I mentioned earlier with all of those problems. He had a gun.

He went to his parent's house who lived just down the street from him. In fact, that night he was at his parent's house and they were trying to talk him into going into treatment. They wanted him to stay with them at their house because he was SO altered on drugs and alcohol. He got into an argument with his father and ran out the door. Only moments later neighbors called the parents, said they thought they heard a gun. His dad ran to the house but of course was too late.

I loathe guns.

And I'm glad you brought that up Alffe. How easy that would be. I am SO GLAD I don't have a gun at my house OR know anyone who does. Chances are...I wouldn't be sitting here typing this to you at this moment.

Well you see how it is around here...friends helping each other up off the floor.

Can't express how much your support means to me...especially when it's the same old, same old. It's always about forgiveness with me...you'd think I'd learned by now...when you carry that garbage around, you are only hurting yourself.

I will be missing out on some great joy if I can't let go of my hatred. those of you who know me, understand my struggle with this.

Hugs for the room and my heartfelt thanks for putting up with me. :grouphug:

:hug:
I was thinking and probably thinking too much and in my overthinking, I wrote something that was never and would never have come across as judgemental if I had written with more care and yes, more thought.

I hesitated when I wrote my question about Michael. I didn't hesistate long enough. Maybe I would have left the thread alone... because I really didn't focus in on the point of the whole thread.

I do not judge anyone who has taken their life. I'm so sorry that my poor choice of words was interpretted that way.

Yes Michaels suicide was impulsive.
My gut wretches and I want to spill out my heart and insides when I attempt to imagine your grief dear Alffe.
I do not judge your son.
If anything, I attempt to understand your son.
I attempt to understand a lot of things around me.

I'm so sad that I knocked you to the floor Alfeeeee :(

You did not knock me to the floor dear Addy. The birth of his grandson has done that...and while I'm down here I need to get on my knees and thank God for a healthy baby.

:grouphug:

Is he the son of your son's son?

I hope you don't mind if I sink down beside you for a bit. :hug:

Yes, I'm a great grandma. :o And I'd love the company down here. :hug:

oh great...now we need to find a place to get group discounts on knee pads. :rolleyes: :p :p :p

:grouphug: we are so awesome huh?

*tear

You're dealing with the longest 'goodbye' that there ever could be.

:hug: Alffe.

My reaction to this new baby has caught me completely by suprise. It's stirred up so many memories and more pain than I realized was still with me. I am getting pressured by family members to "get on" with it.

This is easier said than done. And why do I feel that strangers "get it" more than my own family?

Lara, thank you for understanding. Will "it" never end!!!?

(((Alffe))) :hug:

oh..like duh?

YOU are getting on with it alffe. it is YOUR it. Your life...Your reality now.

yeah...strangers get it. we live with it too.

nah..i can't see why they don't understand that the grief will always be there. any milestone in michaels life that is missed. another loss. this wonderful baby is another loss of his. but...he is here for a reason. he will bring the joy to those who need it. michaels light will keep shining from generation to generation.

:hug:

(((ALFFEEEE))) ((((MR.ALFFEE))) (((BIZI))) :grouphug:

I'm looking for something else..*grin and found this thread. Hope it will help some of you who are struggling.

Still looking for "When There Are No Words".

Hugs for the room :grouphug:

((Alffe)) Damn! You got me crying ... I am so sorry for all your pain...
thank you for sharing this with us.. with me:hug::hug:

I am glad this was bumped up...

want to say more but can't right now...so, will just keep it bumped...

thanks Alpho...

:grouphug: for the broom

:hug::hug:Dear Alffe:hug::hug:


'A moment of Despair'.............is the most fitting and truest of words.


David

...it is awesome to know that there are those who are willing to get down on that floor with you and just sit, listen, just be there, and offer a hand, no matter what put you there...it seems so simple, and yet the world needs so much more of it. I guess, the person on the floor needs to realize that they are there and then let someone who can get down there with them, know it.

(((Alffe)))...I can't fully imagine the pain of losing your son...it is enough at this point that I am worried about my own. I think about it, I need to , I have to. He is depressed, has a hard time with anti-depressants. And, like me, he tends to withdraw, not talk about it. I can see how much pain he is in. I can see how much he is struggling. He has to carry a gun. It is part of his job. I am upfront with him. The last time I talked with him about it, he said, "just be a Mom, that is all you can do," I cried and cried...it is so worrisome...sorry, I guess I had to get that off my chest. Even when you do know, when you can see the possible danger...you can't make it all go away. I am trying to deal with this.

Don't be sorry Mistiis for talking about your fear. You've been there, you know depression and being a mom...you can't help but worry. :hug:

Is he talking to a professional...what meds has he tried? We are here for you dear lady.

Thank you Alffe...:hug: Yes, I do know depression. I am good friends with it as are a lot of people. Knowing depression and what it can do, that is the scary part. I know how depression itself can cloud judgement and to what extent it can. I know what it can do. It is a terrible animal. I wish I could slay it for ever and ever for everyone!!! But that's not reasonable, is it? So we have to go with what we are learning and what we know. Yes, he is seeing a professional. But, if he is like me, he will fool them, and/or himself. He has tried quite a few anti-depressants because he really does want to get better. He has tried so many things, and when that in itself doesn't work, that is depressing. He experiences extra-pyramidal side effects. Actually, I believe that is considered an allergic reaction. I have the same problem with a lot of meds. Just a few days ago his doc decided to try Celexa again. We will see. He did not want to try the MAO inhibitors. I know how depression can eat away at a person until there is nothing left. It's kind of like becoming mal-nourished. After reading here this morning I was moved into lending him some 'quiet' love and strength instead of trying to give him motherly counsel. Different things, I think, are needed at different moments. And today, he opened up a little, and told me he had been having a hard time with life lately. Great strides for him. I hope the Celexa helps.....here's hoping....thank you for caring

This was in the Health News forum this morning Mistiis..I thought it was very interesting...http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081007/...on_stjohnswort

And I'm so glad he opened up to you, you know me...talking about "it" is the best prevention. :hug:

Thank you Alffe. It is possible that he was taking a preperation that was not of high quality. I am going to check into that. Maybe Mrsd would have some suggestions.

and today...http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread57342.html

http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/10...oval/3115.html

suicide in the real world is still very much with us. ~sigh