Do birds play a part in Parkinson's?
 

Do birds play a part in Parkinson's?

A number of posts have been made to this forum suggesting that birds may play a part in the etiology of Parkinson's. I thought it would be useful for us to have references to them in one place.

Researchers, working on mice, have shown [1] that H5N1 avian flu virus causes Parkinson's like neurological damage. There's a good discussion of this in imark3000's thread [2] from 3 years ago.

There are other pathogens carried by birds, such as TB, which have been implicated in Parkinson's.

Diseases can be carried by common birds [3] such as the starling.

Thread [4] contains references to maps showing the distribution of the European Starling in the US and to the distribution of the prevalence of PD.

The European starling is not native to the US, Amy L. Nash [5] writes:
"The first attempts to introduce the European Starling to the United States from 1872 to 1890 were unsuccessful. After repeated efforts to introduce the bird, it was finally successfully brought to New York City. It was on March 16 1891, when a wealthy New Yorker with a strong passion for the birds of Shakespeare, Eugene Schieffelin, decided to import the starlings into New York City’s Central Park."

This late introduction gives us an opportunity to gauge the impact of the starling. Did its introduction have any effect on the prevalence of Parkinson's? Does anyone have historical PD prevalence figures for the US in the 1800s?


References

[1] "Establishing the Link Between Viruses and Parkinson’s Disease"
NPF, 2009.
http://www.parkinson.org/NationalPar...efa0084c18.pdf

[2] http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...ighlight=avian

[3] Influenza Other Respi Viruses. 2011 Jul;5(4):268-75. doi: 10.1111/j.1750-2659.2010.00190.x. Epub 2010 Dec 13.
"Detection of influenza viral gene in European starlings and experimental infection."
Qin Z, Clements T, Wang L, Khatri M, Pillai SP, Zhang Y, Lejeune JT, Lee CW.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21651737

[4] http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...ighlight=avian

[5] http://www.radfordpl.org/wildwood/to...n_Starling.htm

John

[QUOTE=johnt;961684]Do birds play a part in Parkinson's?

A number of posts have been made to this forum suggesting that birds may play a part in the etiology of Parkinson's. I thought it would be useful for us to have references to them in one place.... Quoting Johnt


Jean-T,
Thank you for the time you spend conducting research to unravel the mystery that afflicts us. Especially noted that you went through our own files here, locating and bringing forward previous threads on the same topic; and added in the internet addresses of new evidence, and then put it all together is such a clear and orderly fashion.
That's a model citizen scientist at work.
If I had a theory to present to the world Parkie Org-Fest in October, I would want you to present it. Everybody would say, "Who was that masked man?"
Especially stunning that while the research world is struggling valiantly to come up with a new flavour agonist and another study on the substantia-nigra's impact obsessive - compulsiveness,
You upset the dopa-cart by saying, "Well you know it might involve something else, such as flocks of birds."
There is dead silence in the room. I say, Sir, did you say "birds"?
- It is a stark reminder that it is not impossible to suggest that very large numbers of symptom checkers have been barking up the wrong tree.

This post provides further evidence for a possible connection between birds and PD. However, it shouldn't be seen as specific: this bird, not that bird; this animal, but not that animal; or, even, this pathogen, but not that pathogen. Rather, it should be seen as an example of infections that can lay dormant for years until a person becomes immunocompromised.

Perhap we don't hear the dog bark because many of the dogs bark at the same time.

Birds are associated with toxoplasma infection. [1]
Toxoplasma gondii associated with PD. [2]
Why don't people know they are infected? [3]
References

[1] Ann Trop Med Parasitol. 1989 Apr;83(2):173-7.
"Incidence of Toxoplasma infection in a population of European starlings Sturnus vulgaris from central England."
Peach W, Fowler J, Hay J.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2604457

[2] Neurosci Lett. 2010 May 21;475(3):129-31. doi: 10.1016/j.neulet.2010.03.057. Epub 2010 Mar 27.
"The probable relation between Toxoplasma gondii and Parkinson's disease."
Miman O, Kusbeci OY, Aktepe OC, Cetinkaya Z.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20350582

[3] J Infect Dis. 1995 Dec;172(6):1561-6.
"Toxoplasma gondii comprises three clonal lineages: correlation of parasite genotype with human disease."
Howe DK, Sibley LD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7594717

John

the worst use of statistics is trying to find correlations that don't exist
 

just my opinion but if i were you john, i'd run this stuff by someone who actually does population epidemiology, especially on pd, before posting anything this wildly speculative and possibly unnecessarily worrying people. imho responsible scientists don't do this.

i could just bite my tongue but that's not me.

you think researchers somehow are ignoring looking into this possible correlation because you can't find any research? i think they would have seen it by now if there was one.

soccertese,

I welcome evidence-based, rational, scientific discussion of my posts. Your post is not that.

I suggest you read the references, look at the field in general, then either come back with an apology or a reasoned refutation.

John

john,
when i see something that alarms me i give my opinion, i don't mince words. i feel as strongly about that as you do trying to find correlations, something that should be left to academics imho. these are incredibly complex hypotheses you are throwing out on a social media message board.

i've done research, scientists don't discuss this sort of stuff on social media. what your're doing imho isn't science, i'm not going to spend hours trying to discuss something that even a highly trained scientist would be challenged to discuss meaningfully. i see what you are doing as more yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, not discussing science. maybe i'm blowing this out of proportion, if this is just a social network where there are no consequences to what one posts, especially when you present yourself as a very knowledgeable person, then i apologize. but i think people are influenced by what you post and i think much of it can have unintended consequences.

soccertese,

You have every right to disagree with me. But your tone goes way beyond what is reasonable. For instance, you write: "i see what you are doing as more yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, not discussing science".

Apologize or substantiate.

John

john,
i apologize. i take this board far too seriously at times.

having done some agricultural research which required some statistics to analyze the results, i guess i get more alarmed when i see someone trying to make correlations that they couldn't prove in a million years. just my opinion. i just have too much respect for those that actually do this sort of stuff to try to even play around with it on a message board. but that's just me. so again, i'll drop out of this thread.

trigger vs response
 

John,

Perhaps its not only the insult or trigger event that began the cascade of sx but the response to them. For example when one person is exposed to a toxin or virus they may exhibit chills, nausea, develop allergy whereas another person exposed to the same insult may develop headaches, diarrhea, even fibromyalgia.

If one examines individuals as regards their total being including physical, emotional, and mental pathologies thereinlies many clues when looking for patterns that cross the various states of being. Say for example a person that responds with high fever may also present with high blood pressure, red cheeks and a firey temper.

seems with pd we are looking for a match that started the whole !@@## forest fire :D

I really appreciate your posts
sharilyn

bird keeper
 

I have often wondered why I have PD and my identical twin doesn't. One difference is that I kept a lot of exotic birds as a young adult and he didn't. Maybe this is it.

moondaughter,

I take your point about the response to an "insult". Not only will it vary from person to person, but the same person will respond differently at different times.

Regarding your forest fire analogy. It seems to me that, in contrast to Parkinson's, as soon as people see the signs of the fire they do something to put it out.

GerryW,

It's a long shot, but it's worth reading:
Can My Bird Make Me Sick?
Common Zoonotic Diseases in Pet Birds
By Alyson Kalhagen, About.com Guide
http://birds.about.com/od/birdhealth...icdiseases.htm
which gives details of the diseases you can catch from pet birds.

Given that you have an identical twin who doesn't have PD, I think you could do us a great service by creating a thread on yourself; starting by listing the things that you have done differently. It might be just the thing that gives us the crucial hint on where to look. It would also be useful to see if he has any symptoms of PD. For instance, does his side-to-side tap rate show any sign of slowness?

John

See "Bird Ownership Statistics in USA"

http://www.parrots.com/parrot-ownership.htm

"Using the AVMA [American Vet Medical Association] data, along with previous surveys in 1991 and 1996, the following conclusions have been drawn: Birds are the third most popular companion pet owned, behind dogs and cats. 4.6% of all households own at least one bird, with households in the Pacific region having the highest concentration, averaging 6.3% of households".

It goes on to show a map of how pet bird ownership varied across the US. An "eyeball" comparison between this and the Willis paper showing the distribution of PD suggests it shows roughly opposite patterns.

John

There is much interest at the moment in the role of alpha-synuclein in the pathogenesis PD. I thought it would be interesting to go through my posts, most of which were based on epidemiological evidence, and see if there were any implications of an involvement of alpha-synuclein.

"At least one strain of the H5N1 avian influenza virus leaves survivors at significantly increased risk for Parkinson’s disease and possibly other neurological problems later in life, according to new research from St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital."

"Researchers also found evidence that the avian flu infection led to over-production of a protein found in the brain cells of individuals with both Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases. The protein, alpha-synuclein, collected in H5N1-infected cells throughout the brain, including the midbrain where key dopamine-producing cells are located. There was little protein accumulation in the brain cells of uninfected mice."

tag johnt:alpha-synuclein

References:

[1] "Avian Influenza Strain Primes Brain For Parkinson’s Disease"
January 17, 2013, Northwest Neurology
http://www.northwestneurology.net/av...nsons-disease/
John

To Soccertease, Bob and Moondaughter
 

Hello,

You state that you will not change your method of calling things as you see them. When challenged to back up your statements you once more respond with you will not change your opinion. This is a circular argument that can not be resolved. Your refusing to change your approach to responding to other viewpoints means you have the irrational expectation that everyone else who posts must change to be more tolerant of your postings, yet you have the expectation that what you state as opinion is truth?

I know my post will anger and hurt you, and I apologize for this. I only wish you would take more time to think about the effect on others when you give your opinions on a thread. Remember there is a different choice. Just don't respond to the thread. You are drawing too much attention by arguing about the right to determine what should be allowed to be posted, making this thread become a fight not about his theory. but his right to express it. Perhaps you should start a new thread about what can be posted and can't be posted here.

In Sincerity,
Vicky

Sadasivan et al.write [1]:

"Influenza A viruses infect a number of different species, ranging from birds to mammals including humans... In addition to the well-defined respiratory effects, acute influenza infection in humans can lead to the development of a number of encephalitic syndromes, each having neurological consequences... We demonstrated that acute infection in mice with two different influenza viruses, A/Vietnam/1203/2004 (highly pathogenic avian H5N1 virus)... and A/California/04/2009 H1N1 virus,.. induces an inflammatory response in the brain, consisting of activation of microglia and secretion of cytokines/chemokines... This suggested that the peripheral immune response activated following influenza infection ... was likely responsible for the observed secondary Central Nervous System (CNS) inflammation."

They point out that flu jabs and anti-virals may help reduce the likelihood of PD developing.

Reference

[1] "Synergistic effects of influenza and 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) can be eliminated by the use of influenza therapeutics: experimental evidence for the multi-hit hypothesis"
Shankar Sadasivan, Bridgett Sharp, Stacey Schultz-Cherry & Richard Jay Smeyne
npj, May 2017
Synergistic effects of influenza and 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) can be eliminated by the use of influenza therapeutics: experimental evidence for the multi-hit hypothesis | npj Parkinson'''s Disease

John

Some background information
 

In the process of getting a copy of John's reference, I came across a good source of background information (IMHO):

Avian Flu Diary: Nature Comms: Revisiting The Influenza-Parkinson's Link

... and buried within all that background information is a link to the research paper that was the subject of John's previous post (07-31-2013):

"Highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus can enter the central nervous system and induce neuroinflammation and neurodegeneration", Jang H, Boltz D, Sturm-Ramirez K, Shepherd KR, Jiao Y, Webster R, Smeyne RJ. PNAS August 18, 2009 vol 106 no. 33, doi: 10.1073/pnas.0900096106.

Highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus can enter the central nervous system and induce neuroinflammation and neurodegeneration

(this is an open-access document)

5 years later ...

"Although a wide variety of potential pathogens have been reported in starlings, the strongest evidence suggests that they may be responsible for harboring and dispersing some species of enteric bacteria, with Escherichia coli and Campylobacter jejuni of perhaps greatest interest, and primarily in the context of dairies, concentrated animal feeding operations, and other intensive livestock agriculture."

Reference:
"European Starlings (Sturnus vulgaris) as Vectors and Reservoirs of Pathogens Affecting Humans and Domestic Livestock"
Animals (Basel) 2021
Paul R. Cabe
European Starlings (Sturnus vulgaris) as Vectors and Reservoirs of Pathogens Affecting Humans and Domestic Livestock - PMC

John