Finding me again after 25 years
 

My husband has left me after 25yrs of marriage for a 21yr old, the young girl who I took in and treated like a daughter. I’ve chronicled her arrrival in our life in other forums where I spoke of DB journey to sobriety, SCS thread, and never ending tears thread. There were warning signs of what she was up to and I posted of them in other forums but I was too unwell and in hospital to do a damn thing other than to say to him she is throwing herself at you and to be careful, never in a million years did I think he would commit an act of infidelity, he’s never been that type of man. But I guess having a young fit nubile girl constantly leaning into your arms, flattering your ego, stroking your arm and hanging off of every word you say, sobbing in your arms with her arms around your neck daily as she came up with with each new horrific lie (raped as a child, incest, beaten, more rape, and then the ultimate cutting from wrist to elbow on the inner arm when he told her he wanted to be friends and nothing more) then the alleged rescue of the dog who was allegedly choking, and how she shoved her hand down the dogs throat to remove a dead rat covered in maggots and the sitting crying for 4 hours as he held her and thanked her for saving the dog - all this while I was in hospital.

As it happens, none of the stories are true, I contacted her mother once I came home from hospital and learned of the affair. I don’t believe the story of the dog either, just another attempt by her to be in his arms.

But it’s too late now all of it, it’s happened, and even when I had my nephew put all her stuff out the front door, when she came to colllect it, she let herself in the front door and claims I assaulted her. Me who is barely able to care for myself assaulted her on the Sunday so that on the Wednesday when he saw her she had a black eye, she sobbed some more and ran off into the night. Gosh she could win an Oscar for her performance. He felt painfully guilty..... then he went house hunting and she joined him, out herself on the lease and used my name as her reference so the agents rang me to get a rental reference. Perfect way of making sure I knew she would be living with him, while he was telling me no she won’t be, she may stay over a few nights. She made sure I knew she would be there.

I’ve grappled where to post this, it’s painful to me, but not like the chronic pain I suffer from. It’s depressing and while I acknowledge I have depression it’s not fair to ask others suffering with depression for help and support on this particular subject. So, I’ve opted for this forum, I hope and pray NT’rs can help me as I embark on this journey to finding me. I’ve used other forums on here and have always taken comfort in knowing I could turn to NT and it’s emotional support I need right now. I need to be able to write my journey and have advice and support from the community I turn to in need. I am need of emotional support now more than I have ever needed before.

I have no idea how to move forward in terms of making arrangements to be sure I am financially secure. And as I keep telling my family who tell me how easy it all is. I am still supposed to be in hospital, I am unfit and cannot bend or twist. I am emotionally ill, I’m suffering with severe depression and anxiety so my mental health is also unstable. I’m trying to work from home so I can at least have some semblance of income come in, I’m struggling to work and concentrate, I’m struggling with just living. Some days I eat, others barely anything at all. I have cared for this man for 25 years, I have put his needs before mine always, I was the good wife. Now I’m just a fool, discarded when I am at my weakest. Please help me, I need your advice, emotional support and the care and love you’ve shared willingly before.

Pamela, please let me know about the best ways in which I might be able to support you.

I could offer you practical thoughts, make a very blunt assessment of the young woman (which you might find confronting), share some of my experiences and offer you emotional support. These are not mutually exclusive.

Whatever might work well for you is all that I am concerned about.

:hug: :hug:

Kiwi, I would welcome your blunt assessment of this young woman and equally what I find confronting may well be the help I need in the healing process to find me again. A young friend of mine listened with horror as I gave a very skimmed version of his departure and she said to me, all I’ve heard is your concern for him, nothing of yourself, and it’s true, I’ve lost who I am in my efforts to be strong enough to deal with all my issues on my own these last 25years and carry him. So yes, I will value and treasure all you can offer and give. It’s what I need.

I have just now received this email from him to give an example of how detached he is and the world he’s living in.

“Sorry to keep sending emails. Did you pay my psych appt yesterday if not I will pay tonight But can you print out and keep for reclaiming Thanks. And What account do you want A to pay the rent into - the one she used to use. It’s more money towards the mortgage”

His Psych didn’t send me the a/c for yesterday, she knows I’m no longer responsible for his bills. He has moved out with A elsewhere, the account A used to pay rent into, and that would be 3 times in the 3 months she lived here, we closed on Thursday. Is he nuts, or is it just me??

This is how he was when he was in the deepest grips of alcohol, not thinking things through. As if his ex wife would be paying his ongoing psych appts that he’s attending after he’s moved out. As if I’m going to give over account numbers for her to pay money towards “our” mortgage, something she could use later down the track, oh I paid towards the mortgage...

He sent the email at 10.33, he is at work today and it pinged on my personal phone, my personal phone has never been set up to receive emails or ping on their arrival. But as of Thursday while we were at the bank, my phone now gets email alerts. So I have not answered the email. The phone rang at 11.22am, it will have been him, he always rang me between 11and 11.30am. I didn’t answer.

She has told people in our local community I’m an evil old woman, I’m violent and aggressive and have kept him a prisoner for the last 2 years making him go to work and not letting him go out.

I am truly frightened of this girl.

My blunt assessment of the young woman is that she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Here are its official (DSM) clinical signs:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment;
(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships;
(3) identity disturbance;
(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are self–damaging;
(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, suicidal gestures, threats or self-mutilating
behavior;
(6) affective instability;
(7) chronic feelings of emptiness;
(8) inappropriate, intense anger;
(9) transient stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

I know about BPD because I used to be an Admin of a now-defunct board which supported people who self-injure (cut themselves without suicidal intent) - this is part of criterion (5).

Usually somebody needs five of those signs to get that Dx but from what you have said she seems to have all of them.

People with BPD are very manipulative, as is reflected in your experience. For your own well-being (all that I am concerned with) please have nothing to do with her.

If you want to you could pass on the BPD list to DB as a "heads-up". letting him know what he is getting into with the young woman. Your call - whatever is best for you is the only thing that I am worried about.

Pam,
Will be here for any support I can help in this journey you are on. Have you contacted a lawyer for advice in dealing with financial support, etc.?

As you may already suspect/know, he may be drinking again which is now out of your hands. He will have to learn to deal with these things on his own terms. He will find out in due time who she really is and whether this is something that will last or just a fling. Again,
he can no longer use you as his excuse.

Hold on dear friend.

Gerry

You have faithfully given yourself to this person for over twenty five years
Just that time in itself matter on so many levels
Including spousal support
Just to name one that may ease your mind
Awesome advise
Really good assessments that is in my family
But to have the not so identical partner
There are natural fears that entire our mind
And begin to work on us and fear settles
As change is about to hit the fan
I gladly gave up men because I had children
You case very different
To have gone through all you have I will never know
But the next thing you live are the children
And protecting them
My dimple point
We do all we can to help them in life
Never abandon them
In your case a trouble on a much different situation
It is at the end of the day we are in for changes
I could let all that is happening go on and shut up and put up with it
But how cowardly of me
I must not allow anybody
Determine what you want in your life and relationships
This is all about you right. Ow
Time to take care of you
How easily he walked into her sickness
And you are correct in your assessment for his ego being stroked
But I will ask you this
Would you enjoy yourself with a younger generation
Because in all the generations one after another it doesn’t stop
I will put my money on this
I believe if a father shoes his son how his mother is treated will be a huge factor huge ingredient along with some stuff from mom in return is where it really all comes from
A dream for some
But it be the way or in my family’s case I have a gay son and a gay daughter
Do lesson be the emotional connection
The certainty of no abandonment there are so many things for you to hold on to and maybe find you don’t want to hang on to it anymore
Letting go is difficult
Routine is difficult
Change is difficult
I have hope
And dreams for myself
I have so many things I have to deal with just to pump up myself for the day
I matter
Something I need to figure out alone
It must emanate from the inside
Come from me
My depression is mine
Have a good idea what causes them
For the most part am learning it’s a couple of times in my day I have to stop and say I can do this
And thank Heavenly Father is surrounding me protecting me
Letting me find me
Never letting go of your need to hang on and know you are so not alone in what you are going through
My job to help where I can to ease that hurt
Because it does
Love
Me

Probably already knew, but I'm here.

PS: you are not a fool.

Early days and already sending me confusing messages - last night a message he hoped I had a good day love L, then this morning an email; Hope you’re doing well Toby happier with the cooler weather how are the boys? Missing you Love L&T.

I haven’t replied to any messages, I think I will only respond in person, I’ve had 2 phone calls neither of which I answered, 2nd one he left a voice message, same content as the email.

Damn, he said on Friday before the bank he needed a break. Well needing a break and then telling me 2 days later he misses me is not taking a break. It’s his fault he’s missing me.... He’s coming here Wednesday to do the pond, he has an appt at the bank to complete his credit card application and I guess will come here after that, I have a work appt at 2pm, I think I’ll leave earlier so I don’t see him and have to put up with her pinging iphis iPad every 5 m8nutes and ringing him because he hasn’t responded...

My mum and sister keep saying I need to be here so he can’t take stuff, but I just can’t be worked up over material things, if he takes something, I just don’t seem to have the energy to care. Other people telling me to get a lawyer, I can’t afford a lawyer, my pharmacy bills are huge, as is my medical treatment and on top of that now I have to pay electricity, gas and water. So it’s going to be tough. I’m cutting off Foxtel (sky) at the end of the month and I’m going to see if I qualify for food bank, I have 6 pets to feed as well as myself. I can’t change the security costs or internet and telephone costs so I’ll just have to suck that up somehow. And push my boss to go ahead with the increase to 4 days a week, even if at present I struggle to work 1. I’m getting the work done, just not in a fashion I would normally and no one can say they’re neglected, I’m meeting all their needs. Life is just pure hell right now. I’m so confused and scared.
.

Pamela, this is just a thought but maybe you could have a chat to Centrelink - they might be able to help with the money stuff?

:hug:

Kiwi, I cannot begin to thank you for taking the time to do this assessment. It has confirmed all my thoughts and fears. But fears for me and my pets. I do believe the alleged rescue of Bronson was utter BS and I actually think she did shove her hand down his throat and cause damage to his windpipe. He was not having this laboured breathing before I went back into hospital the 2nd time, it only happened after she “rescued him” remember db came to 5e hospital and said he might have to put him down.

So db has made his bed, he needs to learn his own lessons and I am not in rescue mode in any way shape or form. In his current mindset and her prolific badgering of him re me is possible to prompt him to drink and openly tell her or worse show her this. So stay with me it will other than those few dear friends I trust with my life details.

Thank you Kiwi, thank you :hug::hug:

Today’s email at 6.39am after the wild weather we had (very wild)! Hope all is good at home after the wild weather and hope you and all pets are doing ok. L&T

I imagine these will peter out soon enough, I notice the love has been dropped. If he truly cared, he will have remembered all the blinds needed securing, outdoor furniture secured and cat run made safe, none of which is truly easy to do when recovering from a 3 level spine fusion.

I had thought I’d managed it all with lots of small attempts over the course of the day, we had well advance notification of the storm intensity. But one of the blinds came free and I had to make a quick rescue dash, leaning back and looking up while pulling not an easy task in my state. Nevertheless I achieved it, the rain lashing seemed to reach its highest sometime around 3am, I checked on all the animals at 11, 1, 3 & 5. I got up at 6 and let them all in. In other words I had a very disrupted night. I would normally leave the cat run door open for the cats to come and go, but with the wind so strong it was sucking the curtain and smacking it against the open gap and whistling and flapping like Batman’s cape. I apologised to the cats and said I’m sorry it’s every cat and woman for themselves. Only my Manx looked at me reproachfully the Abyssinian, Black Russian and Russian Blue were up for a night of fun. My beloved boys (dogs) were hunkered down in their beds, didn’t even look up when I turned the light on to check, and as I had elevated their beds 8” off the ground in winter after the last storms when the back yard flooded I had no concerns about them sleeping in wet soaking beds. In all I think did a good job, in reality I did nothing more than I’ve done for the past 12 years, it’s always been me securing the furniture and blinds and making the yard safe from flying projectiles while he would sit inside in the depths of his depression or downing a beer or 4. Cats and dogs are all inside now and seem very well at ease.

My sister is coming tonight to clean and stay the night, I’m looking forward to her company. She has gone through this, her husband left her after 10yrs, he’d had multiple affairs and she had turned a blind eye. The day he left she was in hospital by nightfall, looking back, an effort on her behalf to garner his attention, I recall going to the house to get her X-rays and all he said was “what’s she done this time” with zero care factor. My sister is very different to me, she registered on an on line dating site and was with someone within the week, she openly admits she can’t be on her own. She’s able to take on someone else and become someone else with ease. I know she will recommend I do the same, but that’s not me & the thought of being in someone else’s arms churns my stomach.

I see my psych again tomorrow, she has chosen to bulk bill me for the next 3 sessions so I will not be out of pocket. I’ve spoken to Payroll and changed my pay to go into my new bank account and I’ve added up all his expenses since November 26 to tell him it’s his responsibility to repay them, by Thursday last week the setting up his new home exercise has cost $6876, money he has taken from our joint equity account which my wage was paid into. I notice he has spent more since then and also used the credit card. In contrast, I’ve spent $53. Maybe I should go back to November 10...

I feel drained, I pray I can become the person I was after I left my 1st husband, the one who was strong and put herself first for the first time in her life. The one who wasn’t controlled by others thoughts and actions, the one who said No and stopped trying to please everyone else. Ironically the one db (aka dead beat - no more dearly beloved) fell in love with. I need to be that person again, I know she must be somewhere inside me.

Post edit $9591.48 so much for telling me he’s not the flashy spend money man anymore. Miss BO has got herself a good one here. No way is she going to be releasing her claws.

Pamela, it is good that you and your dogs survived the weather and that your sister is coming round :).

It might be an idea if you got urgent advice about the money things. This is not about me but my story might give you some context.

I have been separated from my wife for about eight years. I think that we just grew apart and, with the power of 20:20 hindsight, there are things which we both could have done differently. We have a joint bank account with a lot of money in it. Sometimes either of us needs to make an unusually large withdrawal from it. Out of mutual respect we always check with the other first and the response is always the same; "Yes, no worries.".

It worries me a lot that DB is taking a lot of money out of your joint account without checking with you first. It does not seem fair to me. Can you get legal advice and/or talk to your bank about this?

With care and concern.

:hug:

Pam,

I share Kiwi's concerns. He has some good insights and recommendations.

You really need financial advice. Even a phone conference can lead you with direction to follow and would be less expensive. There is good chance db will be responsible/share the expenses as well.

The person you mentioned is still there inside; "you will be back"...


Gerry

I’m going to the bank again after I’ve seen the psych, he is going there on Wednesday to get his new credit card application completed but I want to do exactly that, I want to ask how I can prevent him from just helping himself. We agreed he could use the credit card until he got his own issued, but I don’t recall saying he could use the equity with apparent abandon....

He rang the landline at 10.53, I didn’t answer but he left a message and sounded very concerned, he then immediately rang my work mobile which I was using at the time of his call to the landline and left an equally concerned message. Given my sister will be here tonight, I opted to send a brief email just in case he decided to come over to check. I copied his email of yesterday from my personal email to my work email and responded to him via that way, (ensuring she doesn’t know I have replied, I have this feeling she has hacked my gmail, it’s the one account I haven’t changed but will after Xmas when I tell db I’m swapping my personal phone into my old work phone, that way she won’t think I’m on to her). It was the email he wrote about missing you, so I Just wrote “and your missed”. Nothing else, in hindsight I should have copied this mornings email but I hadn’t put that into the file and just coped the first one o came across, I could have said I’m ok, but I’m not and I can’t see the point in lying. I should have said the animals are missing you, because they are, his voice came over the voice mail and Bronson & Bono raced to the front room looking for him. The cats keep gong to the bedroom looking for him, only sit on his chair and keep meowing.

7.13pm - Tonight’s message; Matt P and Sammy B visiting B today. Hope you’re well Love L&T


I’m so confused, this is not taking a break.... I have not responded.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is almost irony in the fact that he sends you more messages, calls, mails, hugs & kisses than before he "needed time out". Not impressed DB, sorry.

My sister stayed last night and is cleaning this morning for me. It is highly evident Miss BO didn’t clean in the time she was here.

My sister told me a story db once told her ex husband, It was not long after the failed IVF in the 1990’s. He told Jack when I’m in my 40’s I will leave Pam. She can’t have children and in my 40’s I’ll still be able to.

So, I guess this fits with everything, in 2012 which is the timeline in which I’ve noted he changed. My niece gave birth to her 3rd son, db was round there all the time, my sister was away and my niece relied heavily on me and db. DB formed a very strong bond with the baby M. In late 2012/early 2013 my sister returned from the UK and my niece dropped us like hot cakes, she had her mother running her here there and everywhere and the baby no longer with db. I recall how bitter he was, and I said it’s understandable it’s her mum, we were not used and we’ve not been dropped, there is nothing preventing you from still seeing M. But no, he became very bitter and twisted over it. I vividly recall a drunken outburst from him in 2013 when he went on about his he’d missed the opportunity to have children.

And I remember on our anniversary this year he made a comment about not having had children. I also remember him asking in a very intimate moment “do you love me” in such a voice I cried. Miss BO spent a lot of time with db during the painting of the house in July and August while I was in hospital.

October 15 this year db went to my nieces birthday party with A (I was in hospital) M said to db I don’t know who you are. DB was upset, that we went to her house the following week and I took photos of db and M as a baby to show M (now 5). Of course by this time miss BO was constantly saying how much she wanted a baby.

So suddenly out of the blue in November db brings up the failed IVF, he hasn’t spoken of it for 20 years, wasn’t there for the d&c or my discharge from hospital, he never spoke of it ever other than to say we can’t afford the IVF and he wouldn’t adopt.

Miss BO asked me constantly in October about my IVF and why I didn’t have children, and how much it affected db, she watched me cry every time she asked me about it. Little did I know she was hatching her plan to have babies with db.

So it makes sense to me on so many levels and the messages she made sure I saw about him wanting to have a family with her. Cruel and twisted she is, very cruel and manipulative. Gosh she just reeled him in like a blowfish on lard. Come in sucker. And that’s what she continues to use on him, word around town is she is actively trying to have a baby. I did say she will be pregnant by Xmas.

I watched a tv show last night mummy dead and dearest. Dee Dee Blanchard. I think miss BO is definitely on target to replicate those actions. Attention seeking on all levels.

I feel as though I’ve been peeled back to the core of my soul. It is the one thing he wanted and I couldn’t do. It’s the one thing she found out and used to her every effort to seduce him. He had such high morals and values, he would never have strayed, he’s had the opportunity many times and never been that type of man. I know this. But this, well it all makes so much sense now. I was his go to person, he used to talk highly of me all the time. Following my discharge from hospital in August and before the surgery he was distant. I guess miss BO had already set her plans in action. Hence the reason for the phone call to me on Monday 27th August and this plaintive I have no where to live...why oh why was I such a decent and trusting person, why couldn’t I have been unkind and distant. What a fool I have made of myself all these years.

And while I think on it, the day we saw his Psych and her bluntly asking db if she can be honest. Then stating he has been wanting to leave or make changes to his life for the last 12 months. He’s spent $225 a session and seen her for 2 years.

I wish I had my wits about me to instead of being shocked being able to say to her and what strategies did you present to db to make these changes. You sent him to the mankind project. And then abandoned him, you as much told him that with the MKP he won’t need her. I well remember when he was suicidal and in the phonceall I had to his psychiatrist whom said he had never recieved a report from her regarding db and she can’t just abandon him. I remember chronicling the anger his psychiatrist expressed. And I remember db made no changes he went to MKP and was for a little bit rejuvenated but it dropped away as he does with everything, he loses interest.

I found an email he sent me this time last year; Thanks for your help together we can achieve so much. If we make a plan when I get back home and we can do a little every day. I just need help getting me started I feel a lot happier just doing the pond. I will miss you over Christmas I just need to think before I speak and show my appreciation. Maybe we can start over in the new year? We have stuck together for the last 24 years if we try we can make it better we are 80% there if we both make a little more effort wow we can do anything. Love Lyndon.

Clearly I missed the maybe we can start over... but I more than put in my 20% towards to 100, db put in 0%. All he did was complain & couch sit, no effort to do anything. But when little miss BO came along and started to do things (because he was paying her) he felt motivated. Motivation should come from within yourself, not guilt because someone else is doing it. And that’s what used to happen with us, I would get frustrated with his lack of action in the yard and I’d go and start working out there, then he would join in. That is exactly what happened with her, she was paid to do something and he’d go out and join her. Paying someone to do something that your helping them to do. I do hope he’s having fun in his new active life.

Pam, I think that your last two posts must have been very hard and cathartic for you to write. They only reinforce my belief that you are a very honest and compassionate person.

The way in which Miss BO has manipulated both you and DB fits with my indirect experience of people with BPD. There is no way that I am trying to make excuses for her.

I hope that it is OK if I offer you a gentle and respectful suggestion.

It might be an idea if you just sat with what you have recently learned. This is not something which can be measured in hours or days. Processing it all might lead you to, for want of a better word, acceptance.

I hope that this helps.

:hug: :hug:

Your honesty amazes and humbles me - still - and I think I see large pieces of a puzzle that didn't seem to make sense fall in place.

I'm having a hard time at the moment to avoid words that MrsD and the rest of NT would heavily frown upon, so I will refrain, but I am shocked, deeply shocked. Yes, Kiwi is right, the manipulator found the weak spot. Which does not excuse DB in any way shape or form. But they are wickedly good at that. It's like they have some special radar, I bet it doesn't even take them long to zoom in.

I am glad you chronicled, and keep doing so. As painful as it may, no, must, be, it makes it crystal clear what both the obvious and deep hidden truths are.

I can only say - repeat - I am honored to have become pals with you, and I can feel the hurt this must be doing to you, deeply. As little as it is, please know I will always have your back - even if I have to travel to the other end of the world and give some people a good talking to. (and no, I don't mean violence, it would be choice words). I'm also sure many in this thread feel exactly the same.

PS: I again want to repeat you were not a fool. At all.

Thanks Kiwi, I will, believe me I will, sleep I hope tonight will not evade me, I wake every night sometimes every hour in the hour, sometimes every two hours. I haven’t slept a full night since I learned the truth. Now that I know some more truths, perhaps my mind can stop cartwheeling looking for answers and find peace in acceptance. :hug::hug:

And you will
 

Having to find it is in your court
It is something you must feel and go through
Sad as that may sound is the truth
It is your threshold you are seeking to find
And you will
You have the truth
As painful as it all is
Empowering uou WILL become
Nobody can get there but you
And I believe you have had enough proof of infidelity
A no no
A big time no no
Some will forgive and allow them all the way back
Others will always wonder
You have the Power within
Find yourself
You are PamelaJune
The lovely lady
Peace
Love
Me

I know we thank each other for posts with that button anyway, but I wanted to thank you in a more personal way for this post. I could not have said it better.

Every love letter exchanged between us for the last 12 years was kept in a box in our hallway closet. Alongside the box were my boxing gloves. I went looking for the letters yesterday morning. They are all gone, disappeared. I asked db why would he destroy the letters, he replied he hadn’t. There is only one other person who has been in that cupboard. Miss BO using my boxing gloves.

DB has tried to tell me I got the letters out and showed him and I’ve hidden them. I have not had the letters out, I have not shown him. I did tell him I had the letters. But I didn’t show him, I would have written about it in my chronicle of this or his journey. So I know I haven’t. It’s him trying to make me question my sanity, he’s either done it or she has, or the two of them have. But in these letters there was reference to the many arguments we have had over the years, and on at least 2 occasions reference to children, if as I believe, she has read them, she will have been front line and centre into our life and able to hone in on exactly db wanted.

No cleaning of the pond, yesterday to tired and in too bad of a mood, today is apparently sick in bed.

Gave me my Xmas present yesterday, asked me to keep it here for safe keeping before Xmas day. Said he had ordered it before and had to pay for it yesterday. I doubt that very much, if you order something from the jewellers and don’t pick it up, you don’t have to pay for it. More mind games.

Tells me yesterday he thinks she is crazy - no kidding Sherlock. Happy days ahead for you db, happy days, I’d be sleeping with one eye open if she finds out you’ve bought me a Xmas present.

Learned some eye watering truths from her old boss who has apologised for laughing at me. Seems she has been in direct contact with him but has lied to db about that as well. The old boss has deleted her from all his contacts and blocked her. (He was one of those she made allegations against of improper behaviour). The boss sent me a message saying he is sorry I met her through his company.

You are all together
 

It’s something I experienced when being lied to
It my meds they would say
And like you
My memory may be off at times
But things of utter importance I do not
DO NOT FORGET
in fact
I make sure when involved with important stuff
Done when I’m mist coherent
Log it down somewhere as I’m big on that taking names time and dates
So I got you
I got you good
And may he not be able to keep an eye open
He has all he has coming to him in time
In time
As you heal
As you heal
With much love and understanding
Me

Pam, it is good that you got some clarity and compassion from talking with Miss BO's ex-boss.

I have little to add to Eva's wisdom beyond saying that I agree with her 100%.

I hope that you have a tranquil time over Christmas.

:hug: :hug:

I hate saying "what Eva and Kiwi said" but, um, erm,... yeah, what they said!

Maybe I've said it before, but the "best" decision you took was to ... chronicle it all down. This story is so heart wrenching that you'd almost doubt your own sanity. I would! It's shocking, it's horror.

But then, you read the words from the first DB Sobriety post until the latest ones here, and you know with 100% clarity and certainty what the real truth is.

A small consolation? Maybe, perhaps. But a very important one.

I happened to think back of an awesome book called "Until I Find You" by John Irving. It's a stretch, but I hope you somehow can "tattoo" in your own heart that you promise to find yourself again too. Healing is what you will do, I have no doubt (but trust me, I do not underestimate the time and effort and hardship it may take).

I hope we can make the best out of a hard situation in the coming days, weeks, months - both of us. :hug: Heck, all of us on this thread. :)

And I think to myself
 

Did I do the right thing
Like yourself
When you know and to Heavenly Father
Are the only one who knows
When you are giving your all in it
And in the end find you are the only one giving it gets
Tiring hurtful and the time goes by
And you put in all the work
Take time out to be kind to ourselves isn’t a thought
Cause we are doing what comes naturally to us
We take it personally
Because it is personal
It it with the one you think you can trust and be safe with
So make no mistake girlfriend
I would make the same decisions I made trying to protect my babies even for just a little time on this earth
And it is them who I hurt from when I am the best mother
I am
I’m a really good mom
And then their donors
They be the only good thing that came from them
Try and the balance I am getting
We are good
We matter
And it hurts

Pam,
I hope I am not "out of line"; but it appears db wants to leave his options open..... until he has had space and time to decide whether he wants to stay or go. If I recall correctly you mentioned his physiologist told you he had been thinking about this for the past couple of years.

Be careful "dear one".

Gerry

Today’s email
 

Recieved at 11.11am - Hi Pam, Just emailing to see if you are ok hope all is well see you Saturday morning at 7. Love L.

I went to work for management meetings today, got this email at work just after one of the meetings, was a tad upset, so I spoke to people at work & they are going to look into getting the pond removed, or put me in the right direction of removing it so there is no requirement for him to come around. One suggestion is to advertise the Koi 30plus free you come & collect then allow the pump to drain the pond to completely empty and with the hot weather hopefully there will be no smell. Another idea is to reduce the size considerably to just allow a small area under the water fountain. I think I’d have to buy a specific pond mould to do that. If I drain it in its entirety then I will have to fill it with clean fill. If I reduce the size & keep maybe 5 fish then I won’t need as much clean fill. Reducing the size will make the pond easier to maintain and I can do it and then when I sell this house the pond is still an attractive feature. A jolly big gaping hole in the back yard will not be a selling feature...

Tenants in the rental advised yesterday they are getting married and having a big wedding so the deposit to buying the house will be used for their wedding, will stay in over Xmas and look for something to rent elsewhere and give 4 weeks notice. So there goes the money towards the mortgage. Will have to sell it as is and empty. The tenant hasn’t exactly looked after it since I stopped being able to drive there and do inspections & wih the market drop we won’t get enough to cover the mortgage, but at least it will be less, a lot less. Hope it sells quickly if priced right.

I’m still in a state after the visit to my GP and the referral for STD, AIDS, HIV testing. Yesterday was not a good day. I hate my life right now.

I highly doubt he will be here at 7am, maybe in his dreams. The last laugh will not be on me. I am functioning, albeit not marvellously, but I’m alive and getting out and doing things even though it’s hard. I will get through this and be better off for it. That’s one thing I will make certain of.

Pam,

He has greatly underestimated you . Keep believing in yourself. You will get through this for the better.

Gerry

Pam, I have some thoughts about how you might use the money from sale of your rental property. They are a bit technical and only apply to people who live here.

Please get in touch privately if you would like me to explain them.

:hug:

Pam, a practical tip from someone who's been there...

When I de-cluttered my life in 2005, I sold my koi for a ridiculously low price. Not free, but 1/15th of what they would be worth. That way you know it's folks who really want them.

If they are serious they will come over, catch them, put them in plastic bags with oxygen, and at least you'll get a bit of money. (!)

Best would be to join a koi forum (local or not), post a pic of pond/fish, explain you need to move/whatever other reason you want to put, and put a low price or ask for a best bid. There will be serious enthusiasts - often people who just had to rebuild their pond or had a calamity/disease that wiped out their population, and would JUMP at such an opportunity.

That was what happened in my case; a nice couple from Amsterdam came all the way with a van, big plastic bags, a baby washing tub (I know...) to make it easier to put them in the bags with a bit of water, and a big oxygen tank so they would not suffer on the 2 hour trip back. (oh, and yes, they all made it without issues and most are still alive even today)

FWIW I sold them for $1000 - they were worth about 15 to 20k. All depends on how many, how they look etc, but if you can catch say 500 quid, why not?!

Pond will not really smell all that much normally if it has been filtered and cleaned properly. Even if it would, after a few rains that will be gone.

A small pond is still a lot of work. Think carefully if you want that. In fact, small ponds get dirtier quicker (think about it! less water volume, so every bit of "debris" takes up more space percentage wise). I would advise letting it fill.

Ask around for a construction company who needs to unload their stuff. Doesn't really matter if there are rocks in the sand, right? I'm sure you can get that done for free. Put a small layer of top soil, some grass or whatever over it: done.

See pics to give you an idea. :)

PS: I did never fill in the pond though. Just kept small goldfish in them, no filtering. In the last 5 years I started again, but small, 5 big guys max. And yeah, that still takes 2 hours/week to properly maintain/debug etc. So in your case you should probably go the whole way.

PS2: last pic are the buyers, like I said, great folks, they were happy as can be!

Oh yes... oh yes. Truer words etc...

And I know, that doesn't take away the hurt. :( But if I were a betting man, I'd know on who I'd put my money to come out on top with a cherry ...

How many Koi did they take? I think I have about 30 or more. No rains for a few months now, summer has arrived... days and days of 30 plus for the next 3 months.

I’ve attached photos of the pond, or what you can see if the pond to give an idea of the size, the deck the dogs are sitting on (Bronson and Bono) that covers 1/2 of it, so in essence it stretches from one side of the yard about 1. To 1.5 meter in from each fence and is about 4 meters wide under the deck and 2-3 meters wide in the exposed but. A jolly big pond... you can just see the bottom of the waterfall. Can’t find a photo with the fish, I know I’ve got some but can’t see for looking... The front view of the pond has got my Holly and our Abyssinian Penne.

Could I keep small goldfish in the smaller mould? Or maybe no blinking fish then I don’t have to worry ?

You could keep small goldfish (well, they get to about 15cm and 25 years old) without needing filtration. No fish is a no-no as you then just built yourself a giant mosquito breeding place (!) And as you'd have almost no debris from big fish, you could leave the pond the size it is now! Just stop the whole filtration system. And don't worry about algae/pond turning green for a while: the fish love it. You wouldn't even have to feed them, they'll find their own food without any problems.

You'd still ideally have to put a net over the pond in fall (dunno if you have many leaves whirling around - they do sink and make a mess/produce methane etc on the bottom).

I had my pond going without filtration or skimmer for 5 years without any problem, with about 10 goldfish (don't take golden orfes, they get very big as well.)

Nets are cheap, and only need to be put/removed once a year.

It looks great, so maybe reconsider and indeed go "small fry"?

I gave away about 17 fish IIRC.

On a nice day you can always try to spend a few hours on your deck, feed them a few pellets at the time, and take pics when they come up. That way it's easier for others to see what types etc. you have.

Another way is throwing a half orange (peel & all) in the pond: they will play with it and eat from it (and it's healthy LOL). Again a good way to take a few snapshots.

If you love the layout, and don't mind just having a very few small fish, the least work would be a) sell the biguns b) feed pump directly to the waterfall (skip filtration system). A possible c) is - if already installed - keep a skimmer going, and empty that every week or so. Usually that's a small basket which will contain leaves. Not heavy, 5 minute job.

The BIG JOB usually is to clean out the filter. I don't know if it's brushes or mats or a combination etc, but it's literally a sh***ty job and even breaks my back. But with no big fish, there is nothing to filter, the volume is more than needed to keep "self-sustaining" (maybe add a few iris?/other marginal plants) so the little ones will be happy as ... erm... fish in the water. (sorry. ;) )

30 grown koi produce a huge amount of crud. Remove them and your pond will stay just fine without "big maintenance". Done it, have T-shirt, it works (my pond is about 30,000 liters).

With that solution you would a) get money b) keep nice pond c) have little to no work. I dunno, take your time to think it over? Making it smaller would make it less healthy for the small fish (!)...

PS: I know a bit about types of koi, but not enough to "value" them properly. But for example, say, if you have a 50cm white one with only a red dot on its head then, yeah, that one may well be worth 4K or more... :eek: So don't be a thief of your own wallet either. ;)

Edit: I now see the pond was made using a liner (probably Firestone), so it is possible to "make it smaller" without having to buy anything at all. Just sell fish, drain, (doesn't have to be totally drained), peel back liner towards the part that stays, fill in the bit you want gone with sand/whatever, and "move up" the liner to it's new frontier - and cut away the excess. Sounds more complicated than it is.

I know very litttle about Koi and goldfish, but I’m fairly certain we have a combination in the pond. We lost 5 of our big Koi 3 years ago when the humidity was very high and we had an electrical outage for over 8 hours, the pump wasn’t working and the fish were gasping for air at the top. It was terrible and I was devestated to see them struggling. The smaller ones survived as did the big goldfish. The pondshop up the road lost 3 of his Koi same night because of the same thing...

Can’t run the hozelock pumps and stop the filtration, these pumps db bought to replace the Oase pump we had which only needed doing once every 8 weeks to these 2 new pumps (which are crap) and need doing every week. The pond shop had sold to new owners and they were distributors of the new product and talked db into, changing to them (keep in mind he caught legionnaires we think from the Oase pump) hozelock bioforce, supposed to be simple easy turn of the handle, they have never ever been a simple easy turn, they were installed incorrectly, and we’ve had nothing but trouble since. Last Xmas when db was away they broke down and I had to get a chap in to fix them as the humidity was high, he said they’re still under warranty, so while db was away for the 3 weeks I was doing the weekly turn and clean it nearly broke my back, getting in and out of the pond to the actual pumps to lift them out and clean, then go to the filters and turn them to run the water clean. It’s just a massive job ever since he got these new pumps. I hate them with a passion and the chap that came to fix them said get rid of them while under warranty, they’re useless. He recommended we go back to the Oase or a different brand but of course db came home, never did anything about following up despite me giving him all the detail what needed to be done and so now out of warranty, stuck with a crappy system I can’t manage.

He is here and has done the pond, the blow vac of the yard, mowing of the front lawn and the trimming of the hedges.

He said again, I know you think she is forever but she isn’t, she stayed at the boys 3 nights this week, she is there today doing the washing. Says his feeling go down for her but the minute someone says anything about her he is pushed towards her, I said that’s addiction and the sooner you realise that the safer you will be, but you’ve mistaken me for someone who cares. I no longer care because I’ve learned more in this last week and I know I’m no longer the laughing stock of town, but you my friend, you are. By who? He says - people who know you and her, that would be who, his first words well I don’t drink there anymore so it doesn’t matter. No I replied, it doesn’t but pride and integrity used to be something you valued and while you may say you don’t care, you will sooner or later when everything you once valued is destroyed.

I told him I definitely did not destroy the letters, told him about her Instagram account and the photo of burning papers in the chimenea November 5th and that I didn’t appreciate him trying to make me think I had gone and hidden them and now couldn’t find them. I said so it was either you or her, he just said “Ok”. And while that hurts, I will just have to get over it, keeping them would only bring me down so either one of them has done me a huge favour in the long run.

Pam,
Ii is good you got to tell him what you have been thinking. Letting him know, even tho it hurts; he has mistaken you for someone who cares, and that you no longer care. Your self respect and pride in yourself is quite evident. That must have given db "food for thought" about himself.

You were given so much advice about the pond. It's amazing those who are able to discuss with so much detail. I hope this has all been helpful.


Gerry

Pam, it is excellent that you has such an honest and direct conversation with DB.

The information about your fish and pond reminds me of an old joke in which a young boy was asked to review a book about penguins. His review was one line; "This book told me more about penguins than I wanted to know.".

Seriously, I hope that it will all help you :).

:hug: