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can we see, with our eyes closed?
When Beethoven was 44, he lost his hearing completely...
but he kept on composing...he heard with his eyes and his hands and his heart... but his 9th symphony lives on... when Helen Keller learned about water, she saw with her hands and her skin... and when she wrote, she wrote it from the dark world that was probably brighter than most people could imagine... When Harriet Tubman was injured while she was escaping, she became visually impaired and suffered seizures.... but when she helped her fellow slaves escaped, she saw with her hands and her feet and it showed them the road to freedom.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~ to me, a good leader is one that will see with their ears, hear with their eyes, listen with their hearts, and walk through obstacles that are ahead, crawl when objects are high, leap when hurdles are placed infront of them and when things get dark, they are able to see the light...and not giving in to the dark world... and really, for me, personally...talk as little as possible, cause usually, that's just air.... |
interesting Moi, I liked that, didn't someone once write "seeing with eyes closed is easy to do, misunderstanding is all you see"
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Frank, I think it was John Lennon. :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see." - John Lennon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think I have been reading too much philosphy books lately... Plato was Aristotle's teacher but they have opposite views: Plato's view was: People are inherently good Aristotle's view: while people could be taught to be good, they are generally more self-interested, hence his claim in The Politics that “man is by nature a political animal." I just thought it was interesting...and it is an on going debate. your avatar reminded me of a few things as I hide yak my own thread... I love Notre Dame. It is my favorite uni. :) When I was in Paris, I made it a point to go to the Notre Dame Cathedral but it was the Panthéon that I really was looking forward to visiting. Buried there (finally) was Voltaire, one of my favorite philosophers... Why I love Voltaire: TRIGGERING, DO NOT READ IF YOU UPSET EASILY Jean Calas was a shopkeeper from Toulouse who lived his life of quiet anonymity with his wife and six children. On March 16 1762, Jean Calas was tied between two iron rings and stretched until....(I'll let you look the rest up if you are interested...) he did not die, then, they subjected him to "question extraordinaire"... he did NOT die... they then bound him to a scaffold, and...(too graphic) he still did NOT die.. they finally took pity on him, and they helped him to his death... Voltaire was a rich and powerful person at this time. He was in exile from France. He became champion of the oppressed... He did dangerous things for the people...he didn't have to do that....he was a rich and powerful man else where, he could've just retired and lived out the rest of his life in comfort, he didn't.... and it took him three years, but he cleared Calas name...(if anyone is interested, please look up Jean Calas) When we learned about Jean Calas in my philosophy class in college...the whole class was appalled...and it made me wanted to go "see" Voltaire if I was ever to go to Paris... and I did... his body was buried else where and wasn't allowed back and was finally buried at the Panthéon... I guess in a way, that was what I was thinking of today.... today, is one of those days that my brain is everywhere.... :grouphug: |
No, no, no, it was Lennon who said, "Into every life a little milk must spill and it's best on top of oatmeal (not that nasty instant kind either)." duh.
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hmmmmm...I had thought McCartney said that? Cause I believe that was followed by...
"Milk...on the run....Milk..on the run....while the oatmeal burned, on the stove it churned...and was mushed for everyone...." (thanks for the smile :) ) |
I think that what you're asking, moi, is interesting. In many respects, you do not need your eyes or ears to see or hear. People with those things often don't really see or hear.
Have you heard about the condition known as synesthesia? http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/syne.html It's pretty amazing and very intriguing. Know that's not really what you're asking about but.... Explain clairvoyance. Explain ESP. Explain precognition. Sight is relative. As for seeing or hearing internally, I think all of us can if we choose to look. Whether or not we take in what we see is a different story, but we can learn so much from true introspection. Never took a philosophy course. Would love to have done that. Need to educate myself more along those lines. It's like looking at Zen and the sound of one hand clapping. Or breathing through your skin while doing yoga. The mind's an amazing place. Good or political? Why taught? Can we not innately know that something is not good? |
As someone who has clairvoyance and precognition, I always find it intriguing how the mind could possibly know? And why only at certain times and certain things? Why is it sometimes something profound yet at others something seemingly meaningless?
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"I have heard of the rainbows, of the stars, of the play of light upon the waves. These I would like to see. But far more than sight, I wish for my ears to be opened. The voice of a friend, the happy noises of community, the imaginations of Mozart.... Life without these, is darker far than blindness."
Helen Keller:wink: I asked my friends one time if they had to loose their sight or hearing which would they choose? Most of them said they would rather loose their sight. I myself would rather loose my sight because I love the sounds of life...:hug::hug::hug: |
LOL ole hooved beaky one...
I have heard of synesthesia in passing so had a basic idea but not indepth. Thank you for including the link. Very interesting. Will have to read up on it a bit more (*smacks head, dangit, more things to learn. LOL) as to my original post, it was more philosophical than anything even though, on a minute scale, each can be proven independently (that is why I added the Beethoven, Helen Keller,and Harriet Tubman) I guess what I was trying to convey is that I believe one is usually blinded by perceptions. And the perceptions are often perceived to be THE truth. And while it might be the truth, it is NOT the WHOLE truth...(when I say "one", I usually mean me. LOL) I've always liked this story of the 6 blind men, each feeling a part of the elephant. when asked to describe what an elephant is, one said an elephant is this long and soft tube (nose), the other one said no, an elephant is fan-like (the ear) and then the other one described that the elephant is like a tree trunk (legs), and so on and so forth, each described a part of an elephant, and so, it is still an elephant, but it is NOT the whole elephant. but does that mean that what we see means that it's an elephant? If I was to put a soft flexible nose on a let's say...gazelle ;) ..put a couple of fans on it's ears, parade it around and say that it is an elephant to a crowd that has never seen an elephant. So, the next time one of these people sees an actual elephant and are told that it is an elephant, that person (Juan, or one, or me) would probably NOT believe that is an elephant because he/she had seen "the" elephant (gazelle) since zen is brought up, zen masters usually propose that consciousness beyond perception, thoughts and beliefs. here is a good quote from Gary Zukav, the Dancing Wu Li Masters: "'Reality' is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends upon what we think. What we think depends upon what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality." Now, I really don't know the answers...when one reads philosophy, they walk away with more questions than answers and then one gets a huge headache cause each question leads to more questions and well...:thud: however, the Zen masters have come up with something called "koans" those are intractable, insoluble conundrums to which the student must find an answer, the answer, however, is NOT reached by any means of logic or thought. Usually, the answer is an experience. This part of the philosophy kinda works for me. Because here is one of most basic philosophical questions. Which came first, the egg or the chicken? Does it matter? Life is a balance and a cycle. When one looks at a circle, how do one tell where it began or where it ended? Plato and Aristotle both had their own views. But I think both were right to a certain extent...(I think Plato might've been a democrat and Aristotle, a republican. LOL ;) ) are we innately good? If one was to refer to the bible, we were all born sinners. If one were to ask the Taoist (Confucius branch of thinking), they claim that we are all born innocent. So, who knows. LOL I have no clue on clairvoyance, ESP, nor precognition but I am open to anything...although ESP might be MSG, who knows. LOL I am not very smart, I tend to ask more questions than I have answers...but that's how I learn...and sometimes, I ask questions that reflect how I feel...thus that was my post. You've raised some very interesting philosophical questions and they are really worth delving into. It's always nice. :) I will end this with one of my favorite Philosophers, St. Thomas Aquinas. Who, as a Catholic, was open to Aristotle's methods. Thus it made him "see" beyond the Catholic teachings at the time (not flaming Catholics, just that period of time) by "listening" to Aristotle's method that one must recognize what is to be assumed and what is to be proven before thinking can get under way. Knowledge builds on itself, and some disciplines nearer the top of the edifice are dependent on the truths below; they get going with assumptions grounded elsewhere. However, he also offered this view: (in his Quinque Viae) A stone moves, and this was caused by a stick which pushed it along, and this was caused by a hand, holding on to the stick, which moved it. Nothing, is a cause of itself;rather, causes are causes of other things, their dinstinct effects. An infinite regression of casual sequences is not possible (this can actually be backed up by theory of relativity[somewhat]) and it comes down to that there must be a FIRST, to this, Aquinas calls "GOD" (a beginning) now, I am not a religious person nor do I want to turn this into a religious thread. But it makes sense to me. I am open to it... :) thanks for posting, I really enjoy learning...and I am sincere in saying this and that is...the more everyone posts, the more I learn...and I know that I am at fault a lot...but that's OK...that's how I learn. :) I mean, who KNEW John Lennon said something about milk and oatmeal (and NOT the instant kind!!) And all this time, I had thought it was his sister, Shawn Linen. She might have said, when milk and oatmeal are burnt, the pot calls the kettle to whine... |
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just kidding. you've asked a very good philosophical question, actually...and this is my take on it. I think if the mind doesn't ask something meaningless and always ask the profound, we'd go crazy...yet, if we don't ask the profound and only ask for the meaningless, we turn into Homer Simpson... I think it is a good balance that with what we are given, we are allowed to be stupid and have fun. Yet, we are also allowed to think deep and drive ourselves bananas... :) |
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Helen Keller truly saw with her heart... one of my cousins has down's syndrome. She is one of the happiest persons I have ever met in my life. She is high functioning. She actually became manager of a Wal-mart. Her sister is a doctor. And her sister is very...bitter... They came to my father's funeral and I was so glad to talk to my cousin with the down's syndrome. She opened my eyes with her attitude... it made me wonder...who's smarter? My cousin who is the doctor, or my cousin with down's syndrome? her smile can light up a room...I wish I could talk to her more and learn more from her... I wonder about the bigger TV's and the bigger cars and the bigger houses.. and I wonder about the tedious stuff that we really don't need, but are told that we need...we see it on TV, it makes us want it. We hear it on the radio, it makes us want it... one can be blinded by commercials of what we see... everyone knows that...yet...something primitive comes out...cause I'll tell you what, I really would like to have the latest I-PHONE....I just gotta have it!! LOLOL (but will never get one cause I just can't afford one every few months...*sigh) |
here is a little test, try to say all these colors out loud as fast as you can in the COLOR that they are in...not the words. ;)
BLUE green Orange Purple Yellow RED |
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Here is but one of many examples I can share....I was asleep one night was dreaming that I was doing an emergency abdominal aortic aneurysm repair...only it was on my uncle....I remember yelling for a c-clamp, we did not get it on fast enough and my uncle died. I woke up shaken looked at the clock 2:35 am. The next morning I roll into the PACU (recovery room) One of our surgeons says you look tired, have a bad night? I jokingly said Oh I was just up doing an aneurysm repair but we lost the patient. He said Ohhhh so you were on call last night? I said no just dreaming, I was home in bed....this puzzled look came over him and he said did you wake up? I said yes, he asked what time? I said 2:35. He said I gotta show you something and starts digging thru the OR records....and you guessed it pulls out an aneurysm repair that died on the table at 2:35.
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You're in a room with ten people. You can see and hear just fine. Yet you cannot see or hear everything all of those people say and do, right? Clairvoyance and precognition work like that. Just because you can see and know, does not mean you can see it all and know it all. |
Wow, what a thread!!! Love it! It's so interesting to delve into subjects like this...
Lennon did mean that we live with our consciousness distracted by the mundaneness of life. The material needs, the TV, our image in the world, all of those things that distract us from being aware at every moment. Aware of what? Of our breath, going in and out, and the miraculousness of that. Our connectedness to all that surrounds us. Of this present moment. It seems so easy...yet it's so difficult. About esp, my father would always know when someone had died...he would have a dream, the same dream. It's going to sound gross, but he would dream that his father would be chasing a person, and would be throwing, um, defecation at a person. If it hit, my dad would hear that that person would be dead the next day. There were times when his father would miss a person in his dream...that person would have a close call, like a car accident, or an illness, but would survive. Nice esp gift, heh?:rolleyes: |
hey MOi what if you're color blind:yikes:, pretty sure being color blind might be a good way to go trough life, if ya get my drift, hows tricks in the philosophical world Moi?
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Thats what I mean Debbie...I too am a human death radar, I can wake up instantly when someone dies and tell you they just died, or I dream it and it happens. It is a sense of knowing I think.
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I'd just like to say that I do NOT want to be in neither your father nor Nae's dreams...especially your father, Deb D...:thud: LOLOL When I was a youngster, about 6 yo, I went to the zoo with my mom and brother. They gave Elephant rides. These beautiful creatures were chained (poor things). But my brother got to ride first. I was a bit peeved cause I wanted to ride first so I somehow, walked behind the elephant... next thing you know, atom bomb hit and I was splat...it knocked me down..you know that thing that they call carp? My mom, the elephant trainers and all the passer-bys were laughing so hard that no one picked me up...I was so flushed I almost cried then and there..and the only thing they could do was to use the hose to wash the elephants with to wash me... OK, stop laughing...you know what they say, "CARP happens"....:D Maybe that is philosophical in itself...carp happens...hmmm.... |
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Boy..... THAT does explain a lot about you, moi. :D Then there's the "everything happens for a reason" school of thought. Wonder what the reason was for that????? |
Silly Moi and AMN~~~ John Lennon was a Cream of Wheat fan!
DOH~ Haven't you ever his "Instant Oatmeal's Gonna Get ya"????? Give Piece of Toast a Chance???? Interesting thread.... |
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I mean, if one sees RED this color could another one see RED as that color?? taking the color blind factor out actually and that we all are seeing RED (but do we see different shades of it?) Of course, we could get scientific about it.... tricks in the philosophical world suck eggs...LOL on another note (I know this is NOT what you are asking...) I don't agree with all Philosophers...I like the ones that are more loose than ****... I don't care for Hegel nor Bacon (not Kevin. LOL Francis) And Philosophy has spawned scientists, alchemists, and charlatans... almost everyone loves Descartes cause of his "Cogito Ergo Sum" (I think, therefore I am) but what I love about Descartes was his way of breaking the rules (rules that are corrupt) and I have used his method in kinda along the lines of my thinking... his notes that "senses can be deceptive, for instance, when one sees a stick (philosophers like to use sticks as references for some reason?) which appears bent in a stream, and a wise person never trusts that which once deceives him. Ought we therefore never trust our sense-based beliefs? The argument cannot prove this much, not least because we would not be aware of illusions if we had no faith at all in sensory perception. We discover that the stick is not really bent by calling on the reinforcements of other sensory experiences; we feel the stick or take it out of the water and look at it again. " he was a good guy that propelled a lot of modern philosophy and science... OK, I have to stop thinking philosophy cause I can really whine about how Peirce have been overlooked and I am just scatching the surface...LOL I am reading now, "the history of thought" it's really really a cool read... :) |
Does it matter if our eyes our open or closed?
It is all in the minds eye anyway. When we view something no matter what it is we seem to already have a preconceived notion of where someone is coming from or what their meaning is. Yeah I get the notion of the blind men and the elephant but once they "see" something don't you think their own emotions, thoughts, preconceived ideas take over? We are all familiar with this participating in a message board. How many times are someones words taken wrong because we cannot see the body/mind behind the words? Of course we can perceive what "we" think they meant, but more often than not we are way off in what they really meant. Then if you add the way you may see that person, their words can take on a whole new meaning and no matter what when you "read/see" that persons words they may always be red or blue or green and I question whether you can ever change the hue of their words after that. I know in my "online life" I can't help but have my idea/opinion of them while reading their comments and sometimes it will skew how I interpret their intentions. I don't like it but it is what it is...Sue:) |
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Oh yeah, bring nose plugs...LOLOLOL ;) |
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I thought you wanted Evolution, DM...looks like your devolving.. ;) (:D) |
sue,
You asked a great question and I really really am not smart enough to answer...as a matter of fact, I have been really enjoying all the comments and I don't have answers to ANY of them...(that's philosophy, I guess) with that said, I do have my own belief system... does it matter if our eyes are open or closed. yes, and no... there is a school of philosophy that teaches, learn then forget. kinda like someone learning to play football. They learn how to drill by running, catching, throwing...there are certain movements and positions that are preferred....but then it is taught to forget about it then go on by default... martial arts teaches that too... in another school of thought, they want one to learn, forget, learn again, and see if what they've learned the second time is better or worse than the first time... I think we all have to keep an open mind about everything but in the end, we all are our own individual and have to respect others for their individuality. :) I agree with you...the written words, when written well, can have profound effects..when miscontrued, it can be misunderstood and then head into many different directions... and that's what I am mostly afraid of when I post...I am always fearful that I am not conveying well...and that what I might have said will make someone upset...then I would type out long posts that in the end would upset myself... see, I am doing it now...:thud: and hey, I got you outta lurking mode! :D Quote:
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This is very interesting. I suppose we can see in so many ways. Very inspirational. Thank you for this.
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your sentence reminded me of the "third eye" for some reason... and I am not familiar with that..just in concept.. I am a student of life...for every sentence, there is another sentence to build on...and with each one, we create dialogues... and I really am being very sincere that I always learn more....even when it is about Give Piece a Toast a Chance. ;) Where is that Gong for me to bow out humbly? Have a nice Sept 1st, everyone... |
LOL I know you have studied the philosophy of the ancients so that being said what did you do to deserve the karma of getting pooped on by an elephant?
Or was it a self esteem issue? You know, I think therefore I am? Or was it Socrates who said who knows what? LOL so you are saying you don't want me dreaming of you? I guess the good news is that since I am an insomniac the dreaming is rare. |
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I can't say that I have studied more than that I have just touched the surface...I am not erudite in it..I don't think I ever will...but it is good to talk about it...cause I have so many questions and it is good to have everyone's thoughts coming out..that is philosophy, I think I guess what good came out of that elephant thing was that I am able to talk about it and people would grin...and that in turn, gives me good karma back cause I just made them smiled... hey, you can dream about Waldo...and then tell me where he is...I'd like to find him...LOLOL :D |
Unless Waldo is going to die that may not happen LOL Other times it is more of a hey I dreamed this happened kind of thing. If only I could see lottery numbers!
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LOL I only use my powers for good never evil! Unless it involves chopsticks!
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My philosophy is summed up in "Even Cowgirks get the Blues" :
I believe in everything, nothing is sacred. I believe in nothing, everything is sacred. |
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No No No Mr Muwah! Gloria sang Get on Your Deet! I'm thinking it was during the mosquito and bug season. :D:D:D:D Just closed my eyes~~~~~ NADA, Nothing! :eek: |
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Why you~~~~~~~~~
http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/...g820gi2i7a.gif One of my faves is Hunka Hunka Burning Toast. Hey Muway?? I still CAIN'T see anything! Wait a minute, I'm getting something. Nah, just a floater. |
Oh, I love you guys...:)
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I believe an CowgirK is the sacred cow...http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ES_468x521.jpg |
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