Advise on dating a very special girl with a tbi
 

OK here goes... I met this girl around 3 or 4 years ago. I had just gotten out of a marriage, she was cute I thought. She doesn't remember that day but I do down to what we talked about and what she had on. I honestly thought she kinda ignored me a bit. I saw her a few times over the next year just hanging with mutual friends. We became closer over time. It wasn't until recently that I really got to know her maybe over the last 6 months or so. I now knowing who she is as a person have become interested in dating her.

She is 7 years younger than I am she is 30 I am 37. She had her accident in may of 2013, crushing her pelvis, breaking both arms and of course the tbi and a stroke. I am amazed by her attitude and outlook on basically everything. Her recovery to me is astonishing. I have done loads and loads of reading about tbi and it's effects. I can tell she doesn't like background music but if it's too loud to talk over she is good. I can tell Wal mart is hard, cooking is taxing, fatigue and memory loss come into play sometimes. She is never the first one to laugh when a witty joke is played but other than that, I feel like she is "normal" but better than that. She has an emotional intelligence that's just wow! When she is trying to make a point she nails in down quite concisely, and you don't want to disagree without some strong evidence to back it up. She is encouraging and always has a lightness about her.

She calls and texts me everyday hugs me when we meet and part. I am used to reading body language and she ticks all the boxes playing with her hair ect lol at this point If I change the way I am sitting she will mirror it. If I brush the hair from her eyes she will laugh slightly and break eye contact. She makes excuses to hang out .... you get the point.

We basically have the same core group of friends. They all comment on how much we talk like hey what's up with you guys. The only other person she shares with the way she does me is her childhood BFF who is a gay guy and lives a few states away. I got the chance to talk to him about it the last time he was in for a bisit and he laughed because he said he had a conversation with her about dating. She told him that she wasn't ready which is why he laughed because he could see how she was being as well. I somehow one night got into a relationship talk with her and she said the same thing. She hasn't been in a relationship sense her accident the one she was in at that time she said they just couldn't work it out. I am willing to be patient but I feel like she is scared. I know she knows I like her. I feel like even if I had conversation about it she might not be receptive. I think she is afraid of being intimate. If anyone has any insight I'd love to get some feedback. Thanks in advance
Kurtis Lowe

Hom3Mad3,

Welcome to NeuroTalk.

Wow. It looks like you have had quite a time analyzing her. I can't imagine a woman letting me brush hair from her face, not even my wife. I don't know what to read into that act.

When researching TBIs, did you read about how many have a difficult time forming emotional relationships? Her emotional intelligence may be such that she needs to look at a situation and form an emotional response that does not flow naturally. I can't say what she is doing but just know that I have to be rather analytical about responses.

I think you need to make your intentions known. Maybe something like, " I know you are hesitant to enter a relationship but I would love to explore a closer relationship with you. I am willing to be patient as you consider where you want to be in a relationship but felt I needed to let you know how important you are too me."

You risk her pushing back and losing what you already have but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Maybe instead of being so forward, you could try to ask her about how she sees the world after suffering her TBI. Please do not let on that you have been studying her like a lab rat. Let her explain how she functions, if she feels up to it.

Many with a TBI don't even understand their own symptoms or the coping mechanisms that they have developed. It sounds like she does not need rescuing. Don't let her get that sense. It can be a bit humiliating to experience that sense that others see you as broken and needing fixing. Just like any relationship, there is no fixing her. She is a whole person, just not necessarily with the same order of priorities in her life as some others.

Please, let her lead and tell you about herself.

My best to you.

Mark first thank you for your response. I'm not saying that I am studying her I am just observant, and have a habit of reading body language. Body language will tell you a lot of things people won't tell you themselves. The brushing of her hair away from her eyes is a big one. most women will pull away instinctively if they are not interested or don't fully trust you. If they want to be kissed they will hold your eye contact. This girl does neither. I 100 percent know she doesn't need saving and if she did I wouldn't have the interest that I do. I've been very open with her that I am researching tbi related topics. She said she was flattered that I would take time to get to know her and her situation better. So perhaps see if I can casually work in how she views relationships after her accident. I really would like to save the forward Ness as a last ditch. I think you very well could be on to something with emotional processing. I will do some research on it later. Just got a text from her asking if I would take her to a Dr apt at the end of the month and come in with her. To me that's an odd request if she views me as a friend but of course I'd be happy to either way. Anyway thanks again Mark I do appreciate it sir

We definitely openly talk about everything. I hope she doesn't feel like a lab rat that would be weird. Sorry I had to throw that in it kinda made me feel creepy.

The invitation/request to go to the doctor appointment opens a door. First, she likely is in need of somebody to help her communicate properly with the doctor. Most doctor appointments are just verbal. She may be asked a question and not give a complete answer. You may have more to add to her answer. She may not remember what the doctor said so you can take notes. She cannot take notes for herself. She will miss too much.

This can be a qualifier for a deeper relationship. A comment, "I really want to be there for you." could open some dialogue. How she introduces you to the doctor may be indicative.

Do not go researching TBI and try to recognize symptoms. That will backfire. It is better to help her with her struggles then consider whether that struggle is TBI related. The problem in doing research is simple. With this knowledge, you become like the guy with a hammer in his hand. Everything starts to look like a nail. We have plenty of people who post here on NT who have this big list they found in their research. They think they have every symptom in the book when in reality, they may have a few and the others are 'power of suggestion' or the result of looking for a specific symptom.

There is ONE place for you to do your research but it will allow you to both work through it together. Download and print out Dr Glen Johnson's TBI Survival Guide at Traumatic Brain Injury It is a Word document with 85 pages so be prepared. You can use the Highlight function in MS Word to read and highlight rather than print it out. Many find it is easier to print and read.

You can give her a copy to read and highlight. Then, you can read her comments with her. You could read and highlight a copy yourself then compare notes. But, if you read and highlight your copy, be very careful. Maybe, "What do you think about his comments on page x?" but not, I think you manifest the symptoms he mentions on page x. Try to be responsive, not intrusive. There may be symptoms she does not want to address right now.

Most TBI symptoms have a myriad of ways we can develop work-aounds and accommodations. Work arounds are known to be the best way people with TBI limits move forward. Trying to use therapies to improve functions (except motor functions) tends to be stress inducing.

If there is a TBI support group you can attend, that can be helpful. Some areas have TBI support groups and stroke support groups. There is a big overlap in how they each impact our lives.

Allow me to speak on behalf of my people Kurtis. :winky: What you're describing is basically just dating stuff, unrelated to any injury. Meaning it sort of doesn't matter what a person's reasons are for feeling not ready for a relationship (e.g. bad break-up, focused on career, TBI, etc.). Ya know what I mean?

Here's the thing - she might like you AND still not be ready. People / life are complicated, as you know. So you might totally be getting flirty signals and it still doesn't mean she's ready for the type of relationship you are. Honestly, if it were me, I'd listen to what she's saying about her readiness. Like really listen.

And after that if you still want to pursue something, you guys just need to have an open conversation about what she might be comfortable with for the time being. Otherwise you risk building her and a potential relationship with her up in your head. And that's never a good thing for anyone. My .02

Maggie

Wow, Mark thanks again for your time I sincerely appreciate it! I think perhaps I miscommunicated. When we met I knew that she had a TBI. I didn't know what it meant or what was associated with it. Over the last 6 months of us kind of becoming a lot closer it was when I did the research. We have totally talked about all the things that I found all the things that affect her how, and to what extent they affect her. She responded well she was flattered that I would even take the time to look the trying to understand what she was going through. She said not that many people would actually take the time to try and understand. And I'm totally guilty of that I probably wouldn't had I not had an interest in her. I told her I would be there for her for anything she needed mentally or physically. Funny you mention that I actually did go to a TBI support group without her just to see. I gained some perspective and it was worth going. I'm not trying to fix her I like her the way she is. I guess the point is I know it's out of my hands she has done a remarkable job with everything she has been through. She never gives up and hardly let's anything bring her down! We are past me learning what bothers her and at this point the I know when she hits the fatigue wall before she will admit it. I want her to be happy and have as full a life as she wants to have. These "work arounds" seem very interesting to me maybe she and I can chat that up at some point. I guess my main concern is the mixed signals. I am sure if she didn't like me or thought I was going to hard she would tell me flat out. I don't think she needs me to take notes, she likes to use her cell to record conversations. Then she later transfers what's needed to her notes. I must say it was weird when she played back a phone conversation she and I had. Then I realized she needed to do it and I got over hearing the sound of my voice. I called her after getting the Dr visit text she said she wanted me to be there to "hold my hand and make sure I am comfortable". I am a decent communicator I would like to think. I am not some pick up artist or anything but I do fairly well with women. This girl is super special she isn't like most women. Lol I sound like a middle school kid with puppy love ha! Anyway I'll read up on the work-arounds, in the mean time she asked if I would pick her up from pt on Thursday afternoon. I reworked my work schedule and made it possible. I am rambling at this point sorry and thanks again!
Kurtis Lowe

Maggie, first thank you so much for your reply. I very much enjoyed your opener it was light-hearted and cute. I think you're definitely on to something. I would totally really listen if I were to get an answer that was more than I'm just not ready for relationship. I don't want to push my luck and press her about it possibly come off needy that's not a good look. Haha I appreciate you looking out for my head space. I try to stay grounded and not build up anyone as to play games with myself. Been there done that got the T-shirt never wear it! I have always been of the nothing ventured nothing gained school of thought but something tells me that's not the correct approach here. I guess at some point I have to sack up and push for an answer. Anyway I very much appreciate your time and your thought.
Kurtis Lowe

I am debating, skipping a conversation about it and just going in for a kiss at some point. I feel like it may or may not take anxiety out of the situation for her.

Kurtis,

My point is coming from knowing a fair number of both men and women who have had TBIs and strokes from my TBI support group. We discuss these issues. Relationships are a struggle for many. Having an understanding friend or significant person is important for the injured party. But, some remain a bit protective in some parts of their life. Struggles with intimacy is not uncommon. Libido is a common issue.

Statistically, relationships with TBI survivors are a challenge. Anybody that suggest they are not different from a normal romantic relationship has limited understanding.

I understood the time line of her TBI before you met her.

Has she ever had a Neuro Psychological Assessment? That is a valuable assessment.

Regarding work-arounds, studies show that those who can master using a smart phone to help with memory and calendars and such needs get great benefit from their smart phone.

The request to 'hold her hand' at the doctor could be the ice breaker you are looking for. Some with TBI have odd touch sensitivities. In my opinion, if she is open to physical contact, offer and let her respond. Offering a hand or a hug lets her keep control. Some have compared some with TBI to having some interpersonal and physical issues similar to Asperger's. It does not sound like she has such reservations.

I think a person with a TBI can be an excellent partner. The self-awareness of personal limits and being tolerant of others because they know struggle can be the basis for a lasting relationship. Being tolerant of her ups and downs as the price of admission can help you with realistic expectations.

By fix her, my point was about the likely permanence and even slow deterioration of her condition is to be expected and not fought against. Studies show that those who accept their limitations and invent a life that accommodates those limitations do the best. It sounds like she has already been successful at this. Those who do not accept their condition tend to live a life of stress and anxiety that takes a toll on those around them. When those around them expect them to work at getting better, the same stresses arise.

I know too many people who have told me I could do much better if I would just try. I've recently decided that the next time I hear this, I will explain that my neuro has never seen a patient with such severe dysfunctions who can function at such a high level. It is frustrating to deal with those who claim neuroplasticity means I can get better.

Oddly, when we just get on with life, there are ah ha moments where we suddenly realize we have regained a function we thought we had lost. It may be we learned a new way to accomplish that task.

I wish you the both the best.

Mark, thanks again I can tell you're very passionate and knowledgeable about these issues. I greatly appreciate your time and effort sir. I looked into the challenges of a tbi relationship. I understand going in that it isn't going to be smooth sailing and fully accept the probability of declination. She isn't one to make excuses and embraces her short comings along with her strengths. Though she is reserved on sexully charged subjects, I get the feeling libido is not necessarily an issue. If anything I think the soreness in her back slash hip may hold her back more than the brain injury.

I don't know if she has ever had a Neuro Psychological Assessment. I will ask her later this evening. She has expressed those ahh ha moments with me. She giggles about it when she describes them. I'll definitely keep updating this post. Mark for President! Thanks again
Kurtis Lowe

Mark, should everyone who's ever had concussions or tbi expect this eventual deterioration of their condition even if they improve enormously from their state after the initial injury? I'm asking for myself but also for my mother who had multiple concussions when she was younger, including one severe one from a car accident. She is currently in her late 50's. She's currently highly functional, has a PhD from a top 5 university in the world(on a full academic scholarship), pretty successful in her field but you've scared me with this 'deterioration' that you speak of.

Ben I think that Marks point was more just to make sure that I knew what I was getting into. I am by no means an expert but from what I can gleam from my readings is that nothing is a guarantee, no 2 injuries are the same and will all come with it's own set of challenges.
Kurtis Lowe

I was just commenting about long term prospects and Kurtis having his heart prepared for the future possibilities. There are no guarantees either way but some who have a history of TBI with prolonged symptoms see a deterioration as they get to the middle 40s. Some never see any deterioration after their recovery.

Ben,

You would be anxious about any negative comment.

"She is currently in her late 50's. She's currently highly functional, has a PhD from a top 5 university in the world(on a full academic scholarship), pretty successful in her field but you've scared me with this 'deterioration' that you speak of." There is no meaning to these comments. Her educational accomplishments have no bearing on her future. She could develop Alzheimer's. She could cure cancer. She could have a heart attack. She could live to 100. It does not sound like she has had any prolonged struggles from her concussions so her future is full of possibilities.

You need to stop looking for things to be anxious about. Other people's struggles are theirs and specific to their injury. If I told you about all of the struggles I have had over the last 53 years, you'd probably collapse from the anxiety. I raised a family as the sole income in one of the most expensive areas in the US (Silicon Valley, Calif). I've had 6 successful businesses. I've self-built a mountain cabin. But, my doctor is amazed that I did all that with the brain damage he can see when he examines my brain function.

You have all of your possibilities ahead of you. Instead of tackling the challenges of moving ahead with your life, you are paralyzed in fear of things that may never happen and things that defy logic.

My father died from early onset dementia that started in his 40s. It took 30 years to take his life at 78. He was a rocket engineer and had to retire at 58 because of his dementia. But, he lived a full life until the last year. He snow skied, biked, fished, hunted, read, and went to the gym an hour a day. He developed work-arounds so his struggles did not get in the way of enjoying his life. He researched how to get the most out of his failing brain.

I've lived for 35 years without part of a thumb and ten years without part of a finger. I learned to do things differently. I have learned to adapt just as I have with my brain injury. We adapt and life goes on. You would do well to focus on going on with your life.

She has had 2 Neuro Psychological Assessments she said they were not fun mostly because of the length. She had 1 right after her accident and one a year later. She said she would like to take another just to compare, but says neuro feedback is more helpful she said it actually maps out the pathways. It helps her with anxiety and let's her know how to better deal with certain stressors. Then she giggled and asked if I had been reading again.
Kurtis Lowe

Wow Mark I totally had you pegged for a physician. That's an impressive resume my friend. You are a truly impressive human being! That's more than most people without challenges hope to accomplish in lifetime! Many thanks for your input.
Kurtis Lowe

I assume she is doing volitional neuro feedback where they wire up her brain and she practices techniques to settle or control the brain wave forms. With a good therapist, this can be a great system. It gives her a sense of control when her brain wants to misfire. Plus, it helps to realize you are not going crazy. It is just the brain misfiring. Use the techniques and you will get past this moment.

Has she told you or have you observed what some of us call brain farts? The wrong word or some other strange misspoken expression? "What just happened? It stinks. I can't believe it came out of me?" Then we learn to smile or laugh/giggle or just shake our head gently and roll our eyes at the situation. Being able to laugh when our brains mess up is a valuable skill.

I have a saying that I came up with by being funny about keeping track of the score playing ping pong. "I can't pay attention because my brain is broke." Think that one over. You could even use it when she is struggling. "Of course you can't pay attention. Your brain is broke." then giggle with her. If the two of you can learn your pet responses to such events, that shows her willingness to establish a deeper connection.

Just for fun, I have a few others. When I get tongue tied, I will say, "I got my tongue caught on my eye tooth and I can't see what I am saying." Or "I just washed my tongue and can't do a thing with it." Women understand this one.

Sometimes, we just gotta laugh. My wife tends to just roll her eyes. Your lady sounds like a giggler.

The stress relief of laughing at struggles has an important part. It releases brain chemicals that enhance function and reduce stress chemicals.

I think you two sound like you will do well.

My best to you.

She says they wire up her brain and talk about things and sometimes she watches pictures on a screen. It sounds interesting though I have not been invited to one of those.... yet. She says it has helped her more than anything else has. All I say is if it makes you happy do it and twice on Sundays.

She has learned to embrace her weaknesses and yes very often will giggle at her self she has a very light personality. I was on the phone with her today talking about Neuro Psychological Assessment shehad a brain fart she got all of a sudden very serious and said she couldn't find the word. I told her it's OK I can't think what I am talking about either. So it's funny that you say that. We both get a chuckle out of that kinda thing. As for random words in a sentence, I saw her do it once but she was very tired even though she won't admit it her eyes don't hide it. I very quickly made it look like she had said the correct words I could see her trying to figure out what happened as I got a hug and left for the night. Thanks Mark I am glad I got your seal of approval. In a world where most women are narcissistic and superficial. This girl is special and if what was on the inside was somehow visible. She would easily be the most beautiful woman on the planet. She's not hard to look at the way she is either if you know what I am saying. I don't know what took me so long to see how wonderful she is. Lol my mom always told me to "look under your nose son." probably should have listened to her more.
Kurtis Lowe

The neuro feedback is what I expected. Sometimes, they play mental video games, at least the kids do. My neuro did it but did not see any way it could help me. My dysfunction is worse than any he had every treated with neuro feedback. He was one of the neuro feedback pioneers. He died last year. Another neuro feedback therapist could not figure out how to help me either.

Please consider not comparing her struggles to the occasional struggles you have. Normal brains get stuck trying to find a word or forgetting things in an entirely different way than TBI people do. The 'everybody does that from time to time' discounts the struggles we live with daily. If she lets you help her find the word, great. My wife often can do that for me as I stumble on as I speak. I have learned to rehearse what I want to say in a group. Impromptu speaking can be problematic.

If there is one thing that really annoys me, it is when people discount how hard I have to work to get my mind to work. Just because I can present intelligent ideas does not mean it is easy. She may have her limits in this area, too. Most of my brain injured friends have similar struggles. That is why support group is so valuable. We know how hard each of us are working to say what we are trying to say. And, we are not looking for praise in most cases. Being able to participate is our reward.

There are a few different word finding or speaking struggles many of us have.
Sometimes, a very common and generic word is just not there. I had such an episode earlier writing a NT post. I had to ask my wife and explained how the word is used.

It could be something like "What's that thing you use on the stove to boil water for coffee?" A tea pot. Words can be that simple.

A more frustrating part for me is the fade away word or idea. I can think of something I want to say and as I get ready to say it, it is like it is written in fading ink. I have to read the word in my mind before it fades away. But, it often does fade way. I can have an idea that I am trying to complete that just fades away. It like trying to catch somebody as they fall away from you.

The other struggle can be having the image of the word in your mind but not be able to get it to come out the lips.

The idea of visual presence vs what's inside is worth considering. My wife was not a beauty queen on the outside. But, she has a heart that does not stop. I had to make a hard pact with myself to never comment on her appearance. Then, one day after we had been married 9 years, she decided to look into getting her teeth straightened a second time. I knew is was going to be more than orthodontics but I made sure we could get it done. She ended up needing both her upper and lower jaws and chin surgically reconstructed due to a congenital deformity. As she turned 40, I got a new look with those same great eyes. My daughter needed the same surgery.

Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate physical beauty but rarely does it come with the heart of simpler women who learned to present a deeper beauty.

As I was reading your comment, I flashed back to a song. Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton. I've heard it sung by Darren Dowler of The Lettermen. His cover is better but I could not find it on YouTube. Here is the Eric Clapton version. Eric Clapton - Wonderful Tonight (Official Live Video) - YouTube

This broken brain enjoys classic harmonies from an older age. If you want to experience what my mind enjoys, play a few YouTube The Lettermen videos.

The chaos of current music is too hard for me enjoy. Does she have (take) any struggles with different genres of music? My brain just had a typing fart. Go figure how it typed take for have. I am constantly needing to edit my posts. I am good at 'backspace'

btw, You two are the same age as my kids. My son will be 37 and my youngest daughter is just a bit older than your lady.

My best to you both.

Mark, you are too kind my friend. I'm not comparing her struggles to mine. The I can talk what I am thinking about was more of your tongue stuck on your eye tooth kind of comment. I have too much respect for her to make negative comments or compare her in a negative light to anyone. She avoids spending time with crowds for the most part. I think it's mostly anxiety based. She won't give her time freely to people she doesn't care for. Here is a text she Sen me yesterday.

My time is my most valuable commodity and I firmly stand by my rule to only give my time to the people I love and want to be with doing things or going places I enjoy. I like to think hanging out balances out the waiting around for me/excessive driving!! 😇 😋

I do count myself lucky.

I can see how hard she works at certain tasks which only gives me more respect for how much she does. Much like you she is truly impressive.
She has described the fade away moments as well as being able to see the word did not say it. I help when I feel like she wants me too but sometimes I can tell she wants to figure it out herself, and wait patiently.

This is the best description!! Worded perfectly! May I steal this quote? "Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate physical beauty but rarely does it come with the heart of simpler women who learned to present a deeper beauty."

As for music, my tastes are everywhere. I very much like the classic melodies. That song in particular is fantastic! Try this it's fairly new but has the same feel

Ed Sheeran - Perfect (Official Music Video) - YouTube

As far as what she likes. You aren't going to belive it but metal like hard screamy metal. She will go to metal concerts by herself all 5 foot 2 and 100 pounds of her. It scares me that she goes alone but she likes it so what can you say lol. The first time I went to her house she had it on so loud she couldn't hear me at the door. I must say I was surprised.
Thanks again Mark.
Kurtis Lowe

A reminder --This is a public viewable forum..
Be aware of what you post.

** it's not my name. Lynyrd Skynyrd song " Curtis Loew was the finest picker to ever play the blues." And using real text.... my response is that if she happened to find this. 1 I have said nothing I am in any way embarrassed by. 2 our relationship is such I am sure she wouldn't mind. 3 I might even show her one day. I try to live as transparently as possible that way you don't have to keep up with lies. Although sometimes it does require extra explaining. Live life don't hide, except from the crazies. :)

Well she spent the night at my house the other night. She asked if she could sleep on the couch in my bedroom. I told her she could sleep anywhere she wanted. I have 2 other bedrooms. When I got up to make breakfast she got into my bed. The next night after not hearing from her most of the day she told me she missed my house that it made her feel comfortable and safe. I told her that she should stay over more often because I very much enjoyed her company, and next time she didn't have to wait for me to get up if she wanted to sleep in my bed. A baby step? I'm hopeful.
Kurtis Lowe