Thought Provoking....
 

Thanks for the link Alffe. Very interesting. I missed the program on the 7th though.

Thanks Alffe :)

I know of an elderly man out here who ended his life a couple of months ago after suffering a stroke several years ago. He overheard his wife and son talking about placing him in a nursing home. He was a large man, and it was difficult to move him around.

I think our society is screwed up. We consider the elderly a burden and obviously prefer death over old age. Instead, we should cherish our elderly citizens. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be here. Some possess wisdom we need to hear, others deserve respect and honor just for making it that far in life. It's nature's way of slowing them down so we can gather around and listen to their stories. :p

Our obsession with youth has gotten out of hand. Gray hair, wrinkles, and age spots are nature's Purple Heart medals. They should be worn with pride. :cool:

I suspect the three people mentioned in your link might change their minds down the road. Illness, frailty, and dependence doesn't always mean the end of a rich life. It sounds selfish to measure the value of life based on swimming, dancing, and golf. It sounds cowardly to prefer suicide over the next chapter in life. :confused:

Yes, KathyM, they might well change their minds but it's about having the choice to do so. I, personally, would not call their choice a selfish one because I don't like to be judged or to judge.

I loved what you said about "purple hearts"...age spots...:p but each of us gets to define our lives and the quality of them....it's a "walk in my shoes" kind of thing, as you well know. :hug:

Thanks for this, Alffe. It does make you think.

You know I'm against any suicide because of my history and my brother's history.

I'm troubled that anyone thinks that someone who is bed-ridden and cannot move becomes a 'vegetable'.

I don't believe it. I've seen how hard some people fight to live. Like Stepehn Hawking, for instance.

I think *LIFE* is the whole package -- including the struggle at the end.

My Mom made me swear "no nursing home" and "no leg amputation" and "no colostomy" from the time I was 12 years old. I kept most of the promise. But, it was hard. I did consent to the colostomy which ended up being screwed up horrendously. She was a real mess at the end. Makes me wonder if she could predict the future :rolleyes:

I don't really think you can plan or predict what will be in the future.

What troubles me the most is the worry that "society" will eventually take on this belief-system "that to be old and disabled is to be useless".

Thanks. Hugs for the room.

Barb

note that it's 4 Corners programme from Australia, not the same as 4 Corners you would have in US.


p.s. moose wrote: "What troubles me the most is the worry that "society" will eventually take on this belief-system "that to be old and disabled is to be useless"

Seems to me that's already happening. I also think that it's very frightening to be old, alone, and disabled. (leaving out the useless bit)

If you read the discussions on the right hand side of the 4 corners page you will see that many of these people do not feel that what they intend to do, is suicide. Many of them feel that it is a choice they should be "entitled" to...my word, not theirs.

More discussion anyone? I can't say that I am "for" suicide..I guess I am against it. It's the very word itself that I am against. If we use pro choice, right away one assumes the subject is abortion. We need a new word for what some people are advocating...death with dignity? That reminds me of Dr.K. for some reason...nothing dignified about what he did to/for people but I suspect his heart was in the right place. How about the right...the right to decide when enough is enough?

And always I have to clarify that I am talking about old, terminally ill people.
Unlike my heathy 31 year old son who impulsively killed himself.

You know what I have a problem with, Alffe??

Anyone who's taken care of sick, elderly people knows that "assisting" them when they've "had enough" has always been an option.

A caring doctor or a caring nurse who's really involved in taking care of their patients, knows them by name, knows the family, even makes home visits -- those kinds of caring people have always been willing to give just a tiny bit more morphine so that it 'helps the patient along on their journey'. The medical community even has a term for it.

What happens, in my viewpoint anyway, when you get lawyers and laws and organizations and governments involved in the whole process is that you lose the 'caring' part of it. It becomes not "a death with dignity" but a "death by process".

I spent a year as a home healh aide after my Mom passed. I wanted to "pay back" in some way the precious gifts that had been given to me. I was the only full-time aide in the two towns that I covered. I had 25 patients that I rotated through over a two-week period. Some I saw daily; some I saw every two weeks. All of my patients were elderly except for one young woman (about 21) with a neuromuscular disease. All the rest of them had cancer or heart problems or altzheimer's. Most of them were 'terminal'.

I spent months and months with most of these people. I grew close to their families and to them. Most of them -- when they'd had "enough" were able to give up and let go and leave.

I saw it in my own Mother. She hung on and hung on. They couldn't understand why she was lasting so long. It was because I wasn't ready to let her go. When I finally became "ready", she passed.

A lot of people that intellectualize the whole dying process and think that they want "death with dignity" don't really understand that most people that really are dying will do anything to hang on as long as possible. When they truly cannot "take anymore", they'll let go.

Someone who is a healthy, elderly individual who talks about "when my time comes" and "when I become a vegetable" and "I want 'death with dignity'" -- I believe -- doesn't really understand that the DIGNITY comes with accepting ALL of what life has to offer -- that includes the entire dying process

I still believe it's "suicide" if you end your life before The Universe intends it to end just because you don't want someone bathing your body or changing adult diapers or cleaning up your bowel movements. Speaking for myself only, I felt that taking care of my Mom and taking care of *MY* patients and doing all of that "yucky stuff" that people normally don't want to do is a gift -- it's a blessing to be able to care for someone's body and bodily processes while they're going through their final steps. I never did consider it a burden. I always felt that the people that I was caring for were dying WITH DIGNITY.

Barb

Well, doing that is illegal here (same place where that article that Alffe posted originates from. I'm sure it happens, but it's illegal. If something is already illegal then lawyers and laws and organizations and governments are already involved.

I'm an old nurse myself. I totally understand your concerns, Moose, however, I think I've grown to a place where I can step back and reverse the situation and say ok, this is what I would do for someone else that I know or love who is dying and it's the same as I would give to someone in a hospital setting that I didn't know personally. I would do absolutely everything in my heart and natural abilities to care for them... To care for their bodies and care for their spirit and be with them even if they didn't know I was there.

but...

is it the same as I would want for myself? No, it's not. It's totally different. I see it more about dying comfortably than dying with dignity. Dignity is something that others might feel who are caring for the person. Comfort is what the dying person should feel. If in 5 or 10 or 20 years time and I've lost my mind and lying in some horrid little space I do not want my children or anyone else for that matter to think that prolonging my life in any way serves any part of dignity on my behalf. It won't.

It might make other people feel they gave me some dignity in my dying process and it might make others feel better because they're helping me just as I have helped others die in the past. I do not want people to have a feeling that this is something that has to be done... that this is simply the circle of life. My body and my spirit are mine and mine alone no matter how selfish that might sound to other people. It's not about selfishness and it's also not about dignity to me. There's absolutely nothing dignified about my disease and pain and suffering and dying. No-one can give me any sort of dignity. That's something that I believe I found in life, not in dying.

Life to me is what holds dignity and grace and all those other qualities. I've already made up my mind about how I feel about the people in the article. I see it as not not what others can do for them or how others feel they should die or prolong their lives, it's about what they want, what they decide. It's just that some people wish to think about these things long before they happen so that they have some personal input into the matter rather than the matter being in the hands of other people who might not ever know their real wishes. I totally understand that.

I guess that's why having living wills are so important. It all reminds me of the transplant situations here where I live. You can make it shown on your driver's permit that you wish to be a transplant donor in the event of your untimely death, however if the family doesn't know about this or the family of the deceased decides *they* do not wish for your organs to be donated, then that's the end of that. No donations, even though the deceased person wished for this to happen. People need to talk about these issues openly without fear and without shame. If we don't talk about some of these really touchy subjects (and suicide comes to mind!) then we will never move forward and we will always stagnate.

just my thoughts anyway... for what they're worth. I would imagine if I was a religious person I might have other issues to come to terms with, however, I am not, so my feelings and thoughts written here are purely mine based on my life's experiences and lessons learned. hope that makes sense.

aroughhhhhhh....how could I have lost the long reply!!! Will try again.

I agree with you in principal Barb. Caring drs. looking the other way, or supplying the means is something devoutly to be wished...at least on my part.

Doctors are afraid to prescribe enough painkillers to their chronic pain patients to keep them from suffering. If you are lucky enough to have a long relationship with your dr. you might be able to broach that subject.

What's really important is to have your wishes in writing, and your loved ones aware of them...while you still have all your buttons. *grin

I'm not suprised that you cared for ill and dying patients Barb. Your posts are filled with love and compassion.

In the "lost in space" post I made reference to my dear brother who died in agony from cancer. One of the doctors talked about the "glory of suffering" and I wondered if it was because he died in a Catholic hospital....Only Christ gets to talk about the Glory...my brother was just a man. A wonderful one but there was no glory in what he endured.

We were posting at the same time Lara. And I couldn't have said it so eloquently either time. *grin

So, some of that obviously does make sense? lol amazing. Well, it makes sense to me of course, 'cause I think it, but I'm glad it makes sense to you too Alffe.

((((((Alffe)))))),

That's probably where my 'different' viewpoint comes from. The visiting nurse agency that I worked with and the one that my Mom was handled by also worked with the local hospice program. At the time, the hospice was 'home hospice' so patients were involved with a doctor and nurses who DID provide 'home' health care.

My ex-husband was in hospital hospice -- I did see the difference. Good support from the doctors and nurses (actually excellent support) but different than 'home' care.


((((((Lara)))))),

You made a lot of sense. You actually got me to see your viewpoint :) It *IS* your decision to make.

I guess a lot of my thinking is colored by my history. Because of my brother's suicide and because of my own attempts, I feel that ending a life is 'not right'. But, actually, realistically, I shouldn't be forcing my beliefs and values onto you. Right??!! Thanks for the insight :hug:


Barg

When my uncle was in the hospital here dying of heart disease he was in so much pain that my parents tried so hard to get him some help. Unfortunately it was too late and although I didn't go in to see him afterwards my sister shared that he looked awful and even after death he had a terrified look to his face. It was a hard way to go not being able to breathe.

Then my BIL was diagnosed with cancer many years later and hubby and I worked very hard to get him out of the hospital setting and into hospice when it was getting close. He had a wonderful 2 weeks there and they brought him anything he wanted. He was actually happy believe it or not. My hubby was able to stay with him for as long as he wanted to rather than be dictated to about visiting hours. When it was near the end the nurse asked hubby if he thought that his time had come and if he was ready. He was in a coma and had been for 2 days. He was in alot of pain and had fought a hard battle. So just like that he died very peacefully and I thanked the nurse for all that she had done for him, not just that day but everyday.

Next it was mom who had a stroke and we watched her deteriorate. The docs told us that she would be blind, not able to eat, paralyzed and many other problems. She would need to be put in a nursing home and that was the last thing she would have wanted. She had talked about this many times as Huntingtons runs in the family and we had a couple of uncles in nursing homes when their family could no longer handle their care at home. Her last moments after they took the breathing tube out were very peaceful as they too had given her morphine for "pain control"

If I had to choose which way to go would I choose struggling to breathe in a hospital bed or peacefully falling asleep? Well I guess I would have to say help me go gentle into that night. It should be something that families could discuss before it comes to a crisis that way everyone would know their wishes and could do all they could to help them along the way...Sue

My sister died at the age of 34 from metastatic breast cancer. She suffered horribly the last entire year of her life.

Her last month was spent in the hospital and she didn't receive decent pain relief until very near the end. They were STILL giving her injections of dilaudid. I raised a huge ruckus when it got to the point that the nurses couldn't give her her pain injections on the 4th hour because her veins just weren't accessible. I watched her suffer when that 4th hour came around because she depserately needed morphine. They would give up and have to have the EMTs come to her room to give her the injections.

Anyway, I'll never forget the day when her '4th hour' passed and she had tears from the pain. I was literally screaming at the nursing staff. That afternoon they set her up FINALLY with a morphine drip IV.

Not many days after she spoke to her doctor and asked if he could please give her something to put her 'under' because she knew she would die in a few days, she felt it. And he did. She didn't tell us, but did say goodbye to her best friend. She told her she couldn't say goodbye to us.

At any rate, she suffered unmercifully. I think that hospice must have been a little known thing at the time or we would have moved her.

She had to be put in a special bed filled, I believe, with sand and constant air movement because she couldn't get out of bed anymore and her bedsores were terrible. The tumors in her spine were huge and the cancer had spread to the rest of her bones, her brain, lungs, everything. Just touching her hurt her.

Dignity is one thing. But I can't stand to see people suffer. I'm sick to death of people with relentless pain and suffering not getting the relief they need. Thank god for hospices for people who are dying. At least they are treated with what they need.

By the way, my sister did not die peacefully. Even under the influence of whatever they had knocked her out with, she gasped for breath and shot straight up in bed and looked at my dad, her eyes huge with fear. He gently laid her down and lay with her talking to her while she died, praying as they escorted my hysterical mother out of the room.

People have been killing themselves for years for one reason or another. I feel that it's their choice, not mine. And I don't believe that taking your own life is a sin.

Sorry for the lengthy jabber, but I'm a firm believer in controlling people's pain even if that means narcotics. We have the means to control pain and suffering. We have the means to help people die when they are suffering. What we don't entirely have is a society that condones relief by whatever it takes, and again, I'm sick to death of that.

My mother and father say that if you kill yourself you'll go to hell. It's a 'sin'. Well, if you do a LOT of stuff, you'll go to 'hell'. (Which reminds me they've also said gay people will go to hell if they don't ask for 'forgiveness' and I asked about my cousin who is gay, will he go to hell? My mother hesitated, very much liking my cousin, and after a long silence said, "Yes he will if he doesn't accept God and ask for forgiveness.") Well, I want no part of a religion with those kinds of beliefs.

If I'm suffering and I wanna go, drug me up and let me go! :Demonstration:

:hug: doody. i was holding my brother when he died. thankfully at home and with morphine. he was 35.

i don't believe that it's a sin to let the soul go. like your sister and my brother...their bodies were dead already.,..just the was cancer alive.

mercy? has our society forgotten the meaning of mercy?

:grouphug: butt squeezes for the room.

Darn. I was going to come back and edit out all that about my sister so as to not upset anyone and you already saw it Monkey Doody! *sigh

I'm sorry about your brother. :(

:grouphug:

It's hard to talk about a lot of things on a forum but I really do appreciate the honesty with which you've all written. It's a very confronting subject and I admit it was difficult for me to write my post so imagine everyone else felt a bit the same. Well, I should say that it was more difficult to actually start it, but once I started it just flowed out. It's good to be communicating.

I guess what I was thinking was that if I could have, I would have helped my sister do whatever it was she wanted to do.

Doody you have heard me say on more than one occasion that I wanted to put a pillow over my brothers face to quiet his screams. When anyone entered his room...after that "last" surgery..he said "Don't touch me!"
No mercy to be found in that hospital Curious. ~sigh And I'm sorry about your brother.

Lara, it did just pour out of you and I thank you for it. :grouphug:

Hi All...
thanks for this thread!....:Good-Post:

Alffe... something you said earlier about your son... you said he was healthy and I thought ... no, dear Alffe... he wasn't healthy... that is why he took his life... you meant he was physically healthy, right? :Blush2:

:hug: :grouphug: :hug:

:grouphug:

until you have been with somebody you love, who is suffering and not getting their own person wishes fufilled...then it is would be hard to give an honest knowledgble reply.

i think many who voice opinions on not allowing somebody to die the way they want..have not been through the experience.

it sucks to put it bluntly.

i can't say for sure what would have happened if my brother had lived longer than he did. we had less than a week after the dr's said he was terminal. i loved him with my whole heart. i never left his side...litterly..i was on the bed with him..for 5 days. buti would have gladley gone to prison to stop his sufferling.

:hug: i'm sorry alffe that your brother had to endure so much pain.

hey addy..i see you snuck in here and posted while i was posting. :hug:

:Sob:

this is in my life now. again.

my dear dear friend and next door neighbor just left my house. she found out tonight her husband has lung cancer. growing fast. the dr wasn't hopeful.(awesome dr btw...stayed and made sure he got the test results) he goes for more tests tomorrow to see where else it has spread.

da monkeys are so close to both of them. they are like grandparents to them. their grandkids are there everyday afterschool and every weekend. the kids play every day.

my heart is breaking. this is something they are already talking about.

Oh Curious :hug: :hug: :hug: I will put them in my prayers

ty shelley.

it is so heart wrenching. he retired just 2 weeks ago. been sick every since. they had made such wonderful plans to travel.

i know it's a different thread..but i feel like my plate is loaded with crap. :(

Oh NO. That's just awful, Curious.
I'm so very sorry.
You oK?????

I'm praying for them and YOU, curious

Oh Curious I'm so sorry. :( I pray that he doesn't suffer. :hug:

ok..nope i'm not ok, but i can fake it and keep a stiff uppper lip and be there for them. :o

my friend lost her dad and sister to cancer in the last 2 years. they both went very fast and she wasn't able to be with them. she is very scared she won't hold up. :( i told her i will. no matter what.

did i mention to add to the crap we are dealing with...the neighbor behind us has been draining his pool...into our yards. and into our houses. :( getting no where with the city. they jerk is an x mayor of our city. :mad:

How tragic. :( Yes, stay strong for them ((Curious)). I'll keep them in my prayers as well.

(((((CURIOUS:grouphug: )))))))
I'm so so sorry to hear this.
Yes, you did mention the pool ... your plate is very full and its probably most impossible for you to focus on so much ... all so overwelming and consuming...
keep your self strong and don't forget to eat and drink water...

holding you up with understanding
:grouphug:
Addy

I'm so sorry to hear this Monkey. :hug: My thoughts and prayers are with you and your friends.

Curious.... I am soooo sorry to hear about your friend!!! You are all in my thoughts and prayers.

Sending BIG hugs your way... along with bottle caps, tang, and pops rocks (though I don't recommend mixing them).

:hug:
abbie

:hug: I'm so sorry about your friends Curious. This must be so hard to deal with. I know it's difficult but you have to stay strong for them.

You're all in my thoughts and prayers. :hug:

ty you all for your support and prayers. they sure are needed.

he is in the hospital now. when he went for more tests..they admitted him right away. :(

I will add him and his family to my prayer list... YOU my monkey friend are already on it :wink:

(((Curious))) :hug:

update:

he is still hanging on. there is family flying in from out of town this weekend. i think that is giving him strength.

:( he passed away today.

the family says to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers.