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Suicide: Choice?
By Al Estock
Choice, as it relates to suicide, remains a somewhat controversial subject. Many people insist that those who die by suicide make a final "choice" to die. Respectfully, I disagree. The word choice makes it much to neat and simple - as though suicide was as easy as selecting a pair of shoes or a tie. Suicide is so much more complex. Truth is - the only person who makes a true "choice" to die by suicide is a person with a fully functional, rational mind - free of mental challenge/distress-and capable of making the choice to die from a variety of options they clearly understand, with all consequences equally apparent. Sadly, the vast majority of suicides result from underlying, untreated, mistreated, or unsuccessfully treated mental challenges - often including major depression. The stigma/silence that surrounds any constructive discussion about mental challenge provides the first strike toward suicide. Few want to admit to having mental issues. Even fewer care to discuss them. The second strike is born by shame, humiliation, and/or hopelessness felt by the person with thoughts of suicide - and the desperate need they often feel to keep such feelings and thoughts secret. The third and final strike occurs when the person is unable to see any path but suicide to relieve their mental torment. Suicide is not about choice - it is about lack of choice. One cannot make a choice if one is unable to comprehend that a spectrum of other choices exists. It is not the case that those that die from irrational suicide make a bad choice, the wrong choice - a tragic, final "choice" - they simply follow the only path they are able to understand that will end the mental pain they feel. Of course, we, as survivors, see the multitude of rational choices that could have been made. Bottom line - most suicides do not result from a "choice" - they most often result from an illness process that robs the deceased of the ability to make a rational choice, The deceased did not ask for the illness, nor did they understand or choose the consequences. Our society does not blame people who die from cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, liver failure, or stroke for "choosing" their deaths. It is long overdue that the burden of blame, shame and "choice" is lifted from those that die by suicide. Most did not want to die; they simply needed to escape from pain. Their illness prevented any glimmer of a choice. ************************************** This excellent article was the SOS newsletter that arrived today. It originated in Obelisk Oct. 2012 catholiccharities.net/loss |
My favorite part of the post!!!!!
Suicide is so much more complex. Bottom line - Most did not want to die; they simply needed to escape from pain. Their illness prevented any glimmer of a choice. ************************************************** **** I so know this feeling.... I live it every day!!!!! :( Abbie |
I know you do dear friend...hang tough, you are loved.:hug:
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I have been a virtual recluse in my house from pain and DIScomfort from a tbi, alone and sick and terrified. the internet is my only companion, but I tell myself that I have to love so the others in my family won't suffer. I am 45, not married, no kids, lost a great job, and head injury was caused by a horrifying combnation of drugs that a doctor gave me. I know I have to keep going but I don't really want to. oh well.
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thank you Markneill! As a survivor of my only sons' suicide I can tell you that it forever changed our family. I am so sorry for your life changing injury and for our Abbies as well. You both are in my prayers. :grouphug:
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Thank you for your post. it made me realized that I have to keep going for the others in my family. I am sorry you have had to suffer through your only son's suicide. I wish only the best for you.
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One step at a time Markneill.....
I was so very on top of the brink of my planned event after having suffered a catastrophic traffic wreck which robbed me of career, means to support my family, ability to enjoy life beyond pain.....and then, when I did finally see what I perceived as "light at the end of the tunnel" for a possible re-entry to the market of those who CAN help support the family, I was "pushed down, cast off, and shown the door" by a party I had formerly felt could be helpful as I had helped their company thrive.....
In a word, hopelessness took such a grand hold of my mind, I entered the eddy of downward spiral, a leaf adrift in a vortex which came within minutes of realization of my plan.... I had made it to my place of seclusion... had the instrument of my "transition" to the other side.... and felt there was no other way. Then. Something blinked in me. I ascribe it to faith. Others might differ- even so, I backed from that moment slowly, not punishing myself for "What HAVE I Nearly Done???" Instead, I just sat there in my jeep on a lonely mountain road. Darkness arrived. I laid the instrument of "end all for me" aside. Started the car. Put it in gear. Sat there a LONG while. Then turned about and headed down the mountain. Home was a warm place that night. The crisis was far from over, and loving people saw to it I received much needed help. That temporary/permanent solution to My individual pain was placed into perspective and put away where it belongs unused by me. A few years have now passed. Career definitely reestablished, bolstered A LOT by the outreach I immediately began to do helping others network to find work. They all graduated and I still help those who need someone to come alongside.....then, I was blessed with my opportunity to work anew. I help in a big way to provide for my family again. We are no where near as financially wealthy as we were at one point before my car wreck induced bodily injuries.....although, we are FAR WEALTHIER in the spirit with one another, recognizing the blessings we have and hold in one another. Ahhhhhh, that is the ticket. I feel blessed. I hope and pray you may feel thus TOO. :hug: Tiny steps....one at a time, carefully placed, and with the help of those who treat the issues I suffered bring people like us back from the brink. Then families such as we have and such as Alffe so selflessly shares may thrive ablaze in the blessings of togetherness. Color me Blessed :circlelove: |
We are blessed by your sharing here dear Mark. And I am the cause of your misspelling his name.....sorry. :o
Our son left behind an 8 yr. old son when he killed himself. That boy, now a grown man with children of his own, has never grieved properly and is "stuck" in that awful anger stage. His wonderful wife and I communicate privately and I am trying to reach out to him. He doesn't want to discuss it! She said he becomes angry if she brings it up. It's so hard to help someone unless they are in your arms and you can look them in the eyes. Yesterday I mailed him a packet of old letters his dad sent us and a book about suicide. We've sent him things that were his dads before but I've never tried a "front on" suicide discussion. If it angers him so be it. I'll continue to love him from afar. Mr.Alffe is hollering for his breakfast! Later gator. :p |
Hey there Dear Alffe
Hope you and Mr. Alffe had goooooooooooooooooood breakfast.
We are going to "up and away" to breakfast, then to church for worship....try to do it in reverse order today to "beat the crush." I misspelled Neil because I know an Neill. My error, not your lead. May your loving and caring for grandson ultimately lead to healing in that family. Hard, I am sure, for he does not Want to "go there." Even so, he perpetuates the legacy of hurt For His Own Children if he cannot and will not obtain help so as to live through his stages of grief. How well reminded I am of the truth "no one is an island." Cast adrift onto the swells of humanity, we each need the other, lest we engage in destructive behaviors, whether of body as some venture..... or of emotion as your grandson lives. Unbidden, I will pray. Can't hurt, :hug: |
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Well Ive sort of been deteriorating for a while so I've had some practice , but its still not easy . Part of it is luck , my deterioration actually reversed my anosmia so some of my smell came back , and that in itself was sheer bliss which also vastly improved my mood ( I was more depressed being mobile without my smell in many ways believe it or not ) The other part is I actually am reversing this disease slowly itself through self treatment ( I have no other choice ) so although I am stuck I still believe - have to believe I can get out . I change routines , try to learn things that can help me to get out ( mainly engineering ) to challenge me mentally and in general just use my desire to everything I can to get out so I have no regrets . Thats the more tangible parts at least.. :) |
I feel the need to post on this one. I realize most people here, won't recognize me. I've been away a while, trying to put my life back together and helping my friend do the same.
Suicide, a choice??? Having made three serious attempts myself over my life-span, I can relate to this well. I was 12 when I made the first attempt. I don't talk about it much. At the time, even in my 12 year old mind, it seemed the only way, out of a life that didn't seem worth living. Pretty strange, if you ask me, now, for a 12 year old. Not even a choice a child that age could really make. Depression was not well recognized or treated at that time. I'll skip the second attempt, and move on to the third. You can't really call suicide a choice when the mind is broken either from mental illness or physical illness causing mental illness, if that makes sense. In my case, an un-diagnosed thyroid problem, replete with psychosis and near coma and death. This attempt could not have been labeled a clear choice. I've survived both these attempts. I can't even say how. For every suicide that is final, there are many many more attempted that are not even statistically documented. It's a HUGE problem becoming even bigger. I applaud those who work to tackle this problem on so many levels. Truly being able to talk about it with someone who understands is the first step. |
Choices???
I really feel that as most people there is not a "choice" . Ending the pain both physical and mental is the best option I have seen many times. Some days I am able to fight both of them. Some days I don't care if they get their way. I have found that if I am at work I can make my ill self see that I am needed to care for my pts. I hear on a regular bases " oh how could they have done that (suicide) to their family and friends" I have many times thought I could tell them just "how" we can do that. I fear however if they knew my secret I would be sent off to a "hospital" Have been there done that....know one thing to be true in my life, I will not go back to that place!
So the attempts have not been noticed just blamed on my clumsiness or the long hours worked. All I can advise is to not let yourself be along if at all possible, it reduces the opportunities a person has |
In my anger at Michael I felt he made a "choice". He was a healthy (physically) 31 year old man with an 8 yr. old son who lived far away with his mother. He worked full time as a juvenile probation officer, paid child support, and went to school nights to complete his college education. He fell in love with a younger woman and they moved in together, planning to marry. She also worked, didn't care for her job and wanted them to move east where her parents lived. She moved, hoping he would follow with the very $$ engagement ring she had shown him. He didn't. Instead he drank 1/2 a bottle of brandy and put that gun in his mouth. I now feel that it was an impulsive act due to his depression over missing his son and his fiancée ...it was all to hard for him and he took the wrong way out. So...choice imho became impulse and despair. End result is we "live" with it. And are all affected...especially that son of his who is a grown man with children of his own...all of which Michael has missed out on.
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Dear Alffe
IMPULSE & DESPAIR.......................The perfect recipie. The only choice suicidal thoughts brings to me, is to go to hospitaly immidiately. That has taken me twenty years to understand and implement. Suicidal thoughts creep up on people at their lowest ebb and seduces people into believing that death is the answer...... A person of sound mind would rationalise that and say that is not right..........sadly suicide is irational Only today at work i have been told of two attempted suicides by teenagers in the service. Hopefuly through treatment and intervention now....they will be offered choices..........they didnt posess informed choice this weekend. David |
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http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...tter-way-death
I always learn something when I listen to Diane Rehm on PBS radio. ******************************** |
Life
Tonight is a black night, weather changing pain escalating. Have been unable to connect with my therapist the last 2 weeks and the "shrink" even took time to really question my state of mind. The usual there it "How goes it, well lets add this med, and increase that one", "see you in 4 weeks" Takes less then 15 min to walk into the office, check in, pay the co-pay, visit with him and walk out of the office back to my car. He has managed my medications the best of all the different docs I have had. Unfortunately it is 4 hours there and 4 hours home. Can usually get in to see my pain doc on same day, (I can actually park in one lot and walk across the lawn to the other clinic) Any way. Monster being here is all that is keeping me here this night :(
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bumping up for our lurkers.....:grouphug:
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Doing homework of my heritage it is sad to see a culture of persons I am of Hungarian decent speak read and write I have come to learn There is a anthem for suicide called "Gloomy Sunday" baffling to me and the modern alternative is alcohol anyone interested in the logic behind it just type in Hungarian and suicide Now my dads suicide even though there was a note It too typical for Hungarians as it is a heroic act Vengeful How many times we were wrapped around her legs Watching our father told not to speak to him This man did not know if he was coming or going Then the make up we were forgotten But just until the next fight Compelled to know of my heritage I learn of this sad truth Thank you for allowing me to share |
Bumping up this old thread about choices, one of many old threads that discuss the "right to die". Suggest doing an advance search if interested.
Hugs for the room. :grouphug: |
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So, considering all the disease states the body/mind can get itself into, some with unrelenting pain the one true gift of nature to the human animal is suicide. Instead of seeing this as a true blessing (remember we all die anyway) most see it as a curse and fear it so much they must vilify or attempt to legislate that gift away. Not just for themselves but to infringe on the rights of others. BTW I'd like to see in the Bible where it specifically prohibits suicide. This is an invention of the priests rather than a dictate from scripture IMO. And on and on. A free man or woman will act on their own behalf based on their own assessment of their own life and that's the way it should be. Here's Schopenhauer on the subject. (philosopher) ON SUICIDE. "As far as I can see, it is only the followers of monotheistic, that is of Jewish, religions that regard suicide as a crime. This is the more striking as there is no forbiddance of it, or even positive disapproval of it, to be found either in the New Testament or the Old; so that teachers of religion have to base their disapprobation of suicide on their own philosophical grounds; these, however, are so bad that they try to compensate for the weakness of their arguments by strongly expressing their abhorrence of the act--that is to say, by abusing it. We are told that suicide is an act of the greatest cowardice, that it is only possible to a madman, and other absurdities of a similar nature; or they make use of the perfectly senseless expression that it is "_wrong_," while it is perfectly clear that no one has such indisputable right over anything in the world as over his own person and life. Suicide, as has been said, is computed a crime, rendering inevitable--especially in vulgar, bigoted England--an ignominious burial and the confiscation of the property; this is why the jury almost always bring in the verdict of insanity. Let one's own moral feelings decide the matter for one. Compare the impression made upon one by the news that a friend has committed a crime, say a murder, an act of cruelty or deception, or theft, with the news that he has died a voluntary death. Whilst news of the first kind will incite intense indignation, the greatest displeasure, and a desire for punishment or revenge, news of the second will move us to sorrow and compassion; moreover, we will frequently have a feeling of admiration for his courage rather than one of moral disapproval, which accompanies a wicked act. Who has not had acquaintances, friends, relatives, who have voluntarily left this world? And are we to think of them with horror as criminals? _Nego ac pernego_! I am rather of the opinion that the clergy should be challenged to state their authority for stamping--from the pulpit or in their writings--as a _crime_ an act which has been committed by many people honoured and loved by us, and refusing an honourable burial to those who have of their own free will left the world. They cannot produce any kind of Biblical authority, nay, they have no philosophical arguments that are at all valid; and it is _reasons_ that we want; mere empty phrases or words of abuse we cannot accept. If the criminal law forbids suicide, that is not a reason that holds good in the church; moreover, it is extremely ridiculous, for what punishment can frighten those who seek death? When a man is punished for trying to commit suicide, it is his clumsy failure that is punished." |
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Survivors of Suicide Who are we? And why do we hang out here? Some of us have lost a loved one to suicide...some of us are feeling so crushed by life that we want it to end. We come together for support..we count on each other to pick us up, dust us off and give us a reason to try some more. We don't judge people in this forum and we ask not to be judged ourselves. When you share here, we promise to listen with our hearts. All are welcome....especially lurkers! |
"we count on each other to pick us up, dust us off and give us a reason to try some more"
Thanks - lots of thanks - for the fine people who do this. May God bless you. |
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I understand that you believe in choices, and so do I. But some of your explanations for your choice comes across as judgmental and perhaps defensive? I'm glad we are talking about this and I hope I have not offended you. That was not my intent. :hug:
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I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to in my posts but if it had to deal with what I posted about nothing in the Bible condemning suicide I posted that for anyone, who like me, was brought up thinking it was a sin and in the Bible. Anyway I have strong feelings about this issue for sure. My goal is to support choice in the individual. It's not up to me what that choice should be. I hope this has clarified things a little as I try very hard not to offend if it can be helped. We are all struggling here. :hug: |
thank you for clarifying that. When our Michael killed himself our Pastors wife told me he went straight to hell. :confused:
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I have had nightmare for 8 years now and I have tried joining groups making friends and most have not been a good experience. The last group I brought up the fact that RSD is known as the suicide decide and I got banned from the group for it, everyone seems to think they are an expert on this disease and I have been called a liar by one to many people including doctors. I thought I would give it one more chance with another RSD group although i am thinking it might be best to go through this alone.
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I find it difficult to even think about going through this alone. There are plenty of great people here that will offer their opinions but we all respond different to the treatment options out there. I hope you are here to stay and make new friends along the way.
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I had a dog some years back that I loved more than any person I've ever known. He finally after 11 years got bone cancer. I treated him myself with Pot brownies for the pain and that worked very well for some time. But eventually I could see that he wasn't happy with his condition. He was still not in a lot of pain but his life was now just laying around doing nothing and he wasn't happy about it. So even though most would not I put him down that early I did it. It was an act of love and mercy and the hardest thing for me to do. Now if I would do that for him out of love and mercy then why would I not do that for myself for the same reasons when my quality of life was poor with little prospect for improvement? Most people are terrified of even the word suicide. No matter how painful their existence their fear of the unknown wins out every time. That or religious belief or pressure from family and friends. (btw there is nothing in the Bible against suicide from my explorations) Otherwise we could all just discuss this in a relaxed and open fashion like any other subject. But we all die anyway. I'd rather die when my quality of life makes living an nasty chore. IMO suicide is a rare gift of nature to mankind. And instead of embracing it as a gift most consider it a horror. Not I. I do not fear the word or the deed nearly as much as a lifetime of unremitting pain and emotional suffering. I had a pretty decent, exciting life before this disease even with low grade depression and I don't want to lose that feeling to years of unremitting suffering. Because in that amount of suffering, suffering becomes the whole of or the majority of the life experience. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. So I guess you could say I'm in favor of it for anyone who freely chooses it and I respect them for that choice. |
icelander
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