Terror + Resignation = ?
 

Hello, my name is Tom, and I am a proud new member of Neurotalk. I am 66years old. I used to be very active physically, in superb condition; for over a decade, 1989-2002, I worked out religiously in a gym for 3 hours, 3 days per week under the guidance of a former Olympic coach. One hour or so with weights (not heavy -- light, with repetitions), the rest with stretching. I felt great. Before that, from 1974-1986, I jogged 3 1/2 miles, 3 times per week. Terrible pains in the back of my knees forced me to stop. I learned some stretching exercises; the pain went away.

Around 2002, after coming home from the gym, I started having strange pains and weaknesses in my legs (they would suddenly start to double up; I never fell, but came close). I had polio at the age of 8, and spent a month in the hospital -- and years doing physcial rehab. I lived a very normal life. So, I figured I had post polio syndrome, and stopped the gym.

Weakness in both legs; incredible stiffness in the morning; tripping on carpets; difficulty swallowing -- all the usual stuff. My condition worsened. I am now essentially house-bound. Sure, I can go to the supermarket, etc., but I pay a terrible price at night, stiffness, soreness. I have all the classic symptoms of PPS, but also of ALS and others as well. I can't walk to the end of the street without being out of breath. Climbing stairs, well, I have to concentrate on what I'm doing.

I have seen three doctors, including a neurologist who gave me an EMG, and told me that he doesn't know what I have -- but that I have something serious. He is referring me to a rare disease specialist. He also put me on lyrica, which has masked 60% of the pain in my legs, but makes me feel exhausted. I live on the usual over-the-counter pain killers.

I attempted to take my life last year (overdose of StilNox, ambien) because I could feel my body being "boarded up." Beside an intermittent, bad burning pain in my right ankle, I have (sometimes) pains in the center of the palms of my hands: they are definitely neurological and surprised even the neurologist.

Whatever I have, I sense now that it cannot be cured, that I will be in a wheelchair in a few months. For a polio survivor, there is no worse outcome than to be handicapped and become a public charge. Thus, I would describe my present state of mind as a mixture of terror and resignation.

I caught myself last night thinking, "Thank God, there's death." I sense the end is approaching, and that there is no hope for me. Best to get it over with quickly.

My question to all of you out there: they say many diseases mimic PPS and ALS. What, specifically, are those diseases? Thanks ever so much for any information you can supply.

Hi Tom and welcome to NeuroTalk. I am so sorry that your health has deteriorated so and that you have yet to get a dx. As you can see there are many forums of interest here..and you will find this a great place to make friends and share information.

I mostly frequent the Survivors of Suicide forum..our only son killed himself about twenty years ago and it just about destroyed our entire family so please don't even consider that as an option..people who love you will be forever changed. I know that you want the pain the end...not your life.

ALS, PPS, MS....check out the forums. :grouphug:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread112688.html

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/forum17.html

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/forum2.html

**************************

Tom,
Your story went straight to my heart. At 46 I was Diagnosed with Primary Progressive Multiple Sclerosis (PPMS). I am now 54, in a chair the last year and half. Sometimes it is overwhelming, I remember how it used to be and realize now that's changed. But I know I can't leave, I still have stuff to do for/with my husband and kids. Yes it sucks but it is what it is. Don't try to predict your future (chair, etc,), no one can, not even the best neurologist. One day at a time.

Hello, Kicker: Thanks for your message. Well, that is the first time I ever heard of PPMS, so I thank you for telling me something I needed to know.

One of the maddening things about neuro diseases is that so little is understood about where they "are" and where they "are going." No wonder the dxs are so vague, based as they are on elimination. Let me note that at 54, you still have much of your life in front of you; consequently, I find your attitude to be more than just appropriate: it is essential. At 66, objectively speaking, I'm facing a different situation.

Your note on "One day at a time" resonated. The best advice I got so far came a year ago from my brother, a retired neurosurgeon. "Sometimes you have to just put one foot in front of the other." The problem is, as time passes and my condition worsens, one foot -- the right one -- seems to have other ideas.

Welcome to NT

This is a great place for support and information.

We do support each other. We understand here at NT.

Never give up.

I met a lady in a nautropathic treatment setting who had been in a bad motorcycle accident. She has actually been to India and had embryonic stem cell treatments. She can walk now. They're doing amazing things with stem cells. I hear there's a lady in the UK who has donated 15.4 million to a research center for MS and other neurological disorders. She's the Harry Potter author.

Here's a wikipedia if you care to read. Although it seems she's not in harmony with the organization. :confused:

My hats off to her for the heart she has. :Heart: I know she's "Harry Potter R$ICH" and that's what makes her even more special.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._K._Rowling

Let's keep thinking positive for the research and developments.

We just have to do what we have to do for now.

I hope you get some answers real soon. It helps to understand why.

Trying to get diagnosed is the HARDEST PART?
 

Learning how to get diagnosed properly and then get treated takes lots of work!
IT IS SCARY AS HECK! You can lose your appetite during the 'process' thru worry. BUT DON'T!
Do NOT expect the absolute worst of what you may fear. Honestly it mite be something else from out in left field such as I got? [CIDP, and acquired auto-immune disease following a long flu/pneumonia bout-not a hereditary issue at all!] THEN? I got other things, such as cancer and a few other issues. Nothing, no problem after the first one! But after the fourth? Enuf.
Take a look please at this site? http://www.neuroexam.com/content.php?p=2 Then go from there? Get a handle on what the docs are looking for? It mite not be 'hoofbeats'...ergo horses? In your case it mite not be polio related? It could be a zebra in disguise... a different kind of neuro issue, that many live with and deal with.
It could be merely 'spinal'? Or, compression of nerves or auto-immune [what I have] But many here, are all kind, understanding and KNOW what you mean about the pain! I describe it as 'I don't have the energy to cry, and it doesn't do anything anyhow' at times. True- tests, take time and the results are often 'interpreted' differently? But as long as you've got a brain and the gumption? USE THEM! There have GOT to be docs out there in the world who can help YOU! Thing is? To FIND THEM! BTW? I found mine.
Don't know about you? I don't 'bounce' anymore! When I fall? I break. Isn't fun. But? I keep getting up and walk again! Even when I'm not expected to. WHY? Because I want to prove 'em wrong! I and YOU are stronger and smarter than 'they' are! So get to work! Hugs and hope... :hug::hug::hug::hug:!!!!'s Truly - j

Great to have you here!
 

Hello and welcome to NeuroTalk. Happy to see you have come to be with us. Just let us know if we can be of any help.

There are great number of fellow members here to assist as possible and looks like Alffe has given you some forums to get started. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Again welcome, looking forward to seeing you around.

Darlene :hug:

A good friend of over 30 years said to me when I told him my diagnosis "you're still you, aren't you". So I try to be.

Hello, Dahlek: Thanks for your information and comment. I am resigned now to never having a clearcut diagnosis; rather, I will be sent from doctor to doctor and take test after test, with nothing conclusive being shown at the end. In the meantime, my condition will go from bad to worse. Fate may surprise me, but, again, I doubt it. There seem to be too many things that are not well understood about neuro diseases at present; someday, they will be, but not in my time. So that is what, in your terms, my brain and gumption are telling me. My intuition, which may be wrong, is in play; after all is said and done, all the information and facts and conversations and tests are over, intuition is what remains. I'd like to be optimistic. There is a certain point, however, at which even hope -- the only item that did not escape Pandora's box -- escapes, flies away, never to be seen again.

Suicide, reply to Allfe
 

Hello, Allfe: Thanks for your comment. My heart goes out to you regarding the loss of your son. I do not have children; however, I cannot imagine a greater loss to any parent than that of a child.

I understand your approach of trying to dissuade people from taking their own lives; I would do no less if I were in your shoes. However, as my physical condition worsens and I am determined not to be a burden either to my family in particular or society in general, I become more and more convinced that death can in truth be a solution -- at least to certain, very special problems. I should note that last year I contacted two Swiss organizations, Dignitas and Exit, to no avail; both deal with cases such as mine. I would certainly like to take my life in a way that is not dangerous to myself or others, and have something in mind.

Darkness is setting in, along with profound sadness -- something beyond depression ("melancholia," perhaps). Again, more and more, I see no way out.

Hi, My name is Melody and I was reading all the responses to your post. I have to ask you something. Is your pain level managed? I mean, are you in such unbearable pain that you can't think straight, or are you just tired of living?

There is a big difference you know. I completely understand the mind set of a person who cannot find any pain relief. I am not condoning suicide under ANY circumstance, but I can understand that when a person is in agony 24/7, that the thought might cross their mind. This is a perfectly normal thought process.

I wonder if you have any kind of support system to help you deal with what you are dealing with. You mention that you do not have children. Do you have a mate, a good friend, SOMEONE that can be there for you when you are at your lowest point?

We all need people. Either being a friend to them, or having them be a friend to us. Sometimes being a friend to others helps us feel better.

Have you tried reaching out to anyone? What was their response? You say you don't want to be a burden to your family. What if something happened to them instead of to you? No one wants this to happen but sometimes, we are dealt a certain hand of cards.

We will be here for you anytime you wish to post any of your thoughts or questions, or if you just want to come by and share some ideas.

We are very nice people with various maladies but one thing we have in common is no one judges anyone else. That is not our role.

I believe we are a compassionate group made up of different kinds of personalities. Just think about this. Years ago, you never would have been able to post your problem on a message board and have different people try to reach out to you.

You will be in my prayers tonight. Here's a hug. :hug:

I wish for you a brighter tomorrow, whatever tomorrow brings you.

Take care,

Melody

Hello, Melody: Thanks ever so much for your message. No, I am not in constant pain, but I am in constant discomfort, mostly a sore back, and increasing weakness. That said, sometimes when I take a step there is a lightning bolt of pain in my hips; I have arthritis in both of them (consistent, I should add, with post polio syndrome, which is what I suspect I have. No professional dx yet). Also, I recently started having excruciating pain, very sharp, going upstairs in my right leg: sometimes, not always. The pain lasts for 2 seconds or so, involves the entire leg. I have not yet fallen, but almost did (for the first time) about a week ago. I am aware that these sharp pains can come any second, which makes walking dubious indeed. It is the NOT KNOWING when the pains will hit that is so debilitating, exhausting.

I live in Europe, so I am far from home and family. Nobody here understands what I am going through; they are inclined to think I am exaggerating at best, faking at worst. They are, in a word, irritated; I cannot say I blame them. From looking at the neurotalk forums, I am not the only one in that isolated condition. As you say, the forums provide what so many of us cannot find locally.

You mention sharing ideas...

Regarding suicide: I am not at all convinced now that suicide and taking one's own life are the same thing. The 200-plus people who jumped to their deaths from the burning World Trade Center were officially ruled NOT to have committed suicide. Rather, they were homicide victims. They had no choice (between being burned alive or dying quickly: there's no real choice there). So, in the end, they took their own lives.

Now, what if the "murderer" is not a person but a disease which, moreover, does not cause constant excruciating pain (comparable to the 9/11 fire) but debilitates its victim little by little -- killing him or her slowly, over the years? I ask: is not the victim just as much forced to "do something" as were the 200 people on 9/11, albeit forced in a different, more subtle way? I think suicide must be a voluntary act; to say someone was "forced to commit suicide" is, therefore, a contradiction in terms: that is the lesson of the 200. But if that is true, then people who are victims of debilitating diseases who kill themselves do not commit suicide; rather, they take their own lives.

Clearly, intention is also involved. The coroner of N.Y. noted that none of the 200 came to work intending to do what they did. Maybe, in suicide, the person intends to end life itself. When someone kills themself because of a serious disease (or a burning building), however, they do not intend to end life per se; they intend to end their suffering, and can do so only by taking their own lives. In that regard, to answer your question: no, I am not tired of living. I am tired of seeing my health deteriorate one inch at a time; tired of sudden pains; tired of perpetual weakness and discomfort; tired of being tired.

This whole question of what is suicide needs to be revisited. Socrates showed the incredible complexity of the issue: he was forced by the state to drink the hemlock (not suicide, therefore); however, when the moment came, he voluntarily -- truly willingly -- drank the poison (therefore, suicide). Now, that's a paradox for you.

You say it very well: sometimes, we are "dealt a certain hand of cards." The question comes down to this: do I want to be a burden to my family and others for a long, long time, or to be a burden for a week or two, settling my estate and so forth? Both are burdens, but I submit the latter is a lesser one.

Again, Melody, I thank you for your concern, your compassion, and your prayers.

Good morning...I think this conversation would be better placed on the SOS Forum...here is just one link from previous threads regarding assisted suicide...http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...sisted+Suicide

and another one...


http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...sisted+Suicide



If you do an advanced search, you will find others there. I do understand my friend and would feel very much the same given your circumstances. :grouphug:

Yes you are
 

Spoken with a clearer voice and softer spirit, you have opened my eyes to still another means to help others. We still are. We still are. Just the other night I shared on another thread with one who, being stricken, needs to know it is OK to cry needed to read, let yourself be human.

As we each remain committed to one another and to our beyond cyber families and friends, we can reach beyond ourselves to share, to be there. Lebelvedere, I am glad you are here among us, for being only human with your DX, you can be THERE for others. I am, despite having lost the tremendous strength of my "athletic" body to a car wreck 5 1/2 years ago. Next week, I am allowed to speak in front of a chronic pain group here in Colorado; how I wish you could be there so I could shake your hand.

Hang around. You have purpose. OK?
Caring,
Mark56:)

great post Mark...thank you! :grouphug:

Tom:

This is a long post, but I wanted to get the information to you.

So right now you are on Lyrica and over the counter meds. I would have suggested a fentanyl patch or something stronger (I have no doubt that you have access to this), but given your possible predisposition to take your life, I'm not going to go in that direction. You didn't mention alternative treatments. And don't laugh, but there ARE alternative treatments to what you have been taking.

My husband has severe neuropathy in his two feet. He admitted to the neuropathy support group that yes indeed, he has thought of suicide way back when his neuropathy was so bad he didn't know where else to go. Many others at the meeting also raised their hands when asked "have any of you had these thoughts?

He did try the fentanyl pain patch but they had to keep increasing the dose and then you can't have any more. So he had to detox and that was a BIG pain in the butt to get off of that drug.

So he tried acupuncture. Well you should have seen this man after his first appointment. He bounced out of the office. That's right, he BOUNCED.

He said "Oh my god, what a difference" Now I do not know if you have explored any of the alternative ways that many people explore.

Like yoga, meditation, acupuncture, etc.

I have diabetes. I have NOT gone through the hell that you obviously have gone through but I did have a bout with neuropathy that sent me temporarily reeling from the pain. I then knew WHAT MY HUSBAND HAD BEEN SUFFERING FROM.

See, no one who hasn't walked in your shoes, can possibly know what you are feeling. And when drugs do not work, we have to try and see if our bodies can start cooperating and heal on it's own.

Doesn't work for everyone, this I know. But I can assure you of one thing. It worked for me.

I have been a diabetic for 22 years, on insulin, on meds, high blood pressure, neuropathy, degenerative joint disease (notice the word degenerative).

I once had a doctor treat my frozen shoulder and he looked me in the face and said "Melody you have DEGENERATIVE joint disease, you DO know what the word DEGENERATIVE means, right? He wasn't trying to be cruel, he just wanted me to have the facts.

Want to know what I did with the facts? I decided to change the way I looked at food. Sounds stupid, right? Well, guess what? It saved my life.

Some years ago, I gave up Red meat, and started eating a plant based diet. You can look this up on google. It's a no brainer. You eat fresh stuff, nothing in a package, no meat, and you get rid of all the toxins in your body.

I have done this. I also went online and discovered the benefits of sprouting my own food.

Ever heard of sprouting? Neither did I. I happened to come across a video of someone sprouting her own broccoli seeds, (never heard of broccoli seeds at the time either), but I said "Melody, what on earth do you have to lose?" "Do you want to be unhealthy, diabetic, degenerative, blah blah, the rest of your life? or do you want to make an effort and see what happens when you change the nutrition in your body".

So, because I had absolutely nothing to lose, I made a change in what I put in my body. AND BOY DID THIS WORK FOR ME.

I went on youtube and watched a video on the benefits of broccoli sprouts. Blew me away. I then learned about the minerals, vitamins, life sustaining enzymes in sprouting other things. So I sprout organic seeds that I purchase online. You can do this because you obviously go online.

I make it simple. I just sprout broccoli, radish, FENUGREEK (which aside from broccoli, is VERY BENEFICIAL TO THE BODY), and I sprout whatever seeds I happen to buy.

I do not go to the store and purchase lettuce or stuff that I don't know where it came from because all that food was grown using pesticides. (You DO know what pesticides do to the body, right?) all kinds of nasty side effects. Neuropathy, being one of them.

It's amazing what happens when you put GOOD things in your body. You go to the bathroom effortlessly every day. You dont' get bloated, you don't get headaches, some of the aches and pains with being in your 60's, well they go away. It's like your body goes "hey, thanks, I'm feeling a bit better today".

I have been eating this way for 2 years. You couldn't make me go back in time and put whatever I used to put in my body, well I would not do it again.

My body now works. It didn't work that good before. I had a frozen shoulder that I could not bend behind my back. I can bend it much better now. Can I do push ups, sit ups, run a marathon, OF COURSE NOT. But I can move better than I ever could before.

I tell myself. "you are almost 63 years old and you got up this morning, and you were able to go out of the house and do what you had to do".

Two years ago, I was all bent up, and stiff as a board, and while I'm no spring chicken, I can move BETTER. Might be all in my head, but who cares. I CAN MOVE. And yeah, I have days when the barometer drops 20 degrees and my body says "ouch". But when the barometer is steady, my body does not say OUCH that much any more.

It's all baby steps.

Here's a link to one of my online videos. I was asked to make a video of how I sprout because I joined a sprouting message boards and we all get excited at what we do.

So click on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjwlIRrKRy0

You can also view my other videos because this video links to the others on youtube. I sprout lots of cool things.

And if this lights up your brain and you go "hey, what have I got to lose", well then google BENEFITS OF SPROUTING, and the immune system, and how it just might help.

What have you got to lose?

And you might even like the taste. I make sprout salads (I put things in that people put in salads), and I add a splash of extra virgin olive oil, tomatoes, black olives, sea salt, fresh ground pepper. FABULOUS. I put them on sandwiches. (I sneak them in my husband's meals.)

I give my sprouts away to my neighbors who say they don't have the time to start sprouting in trays like I do. To me, it's what I love to do. It's the greatest hobby I have EVER discovered because it saved my life (medically speaking I mean).

And my biggest advocate is my doctor. He's a body builder and you should have seen his face when I marched in with a bag of sprouts that I had just harvested in the morning. They were broccoli sprouts.

He turned to his other patient and said "See what my patients bring me? SPROUTS!!!!" I once asked him ."are you saying this to make me feel good or do you really know about the benefits of sprouting"?

He said to me "Are you for real?, keep sprouting and bringing me sprouts" We both laughed.

And my husband is his primary patient. My husband doesn't see food the way I see food. He sees it for what it does to his brain, so he eats things he is not supposed to eat.

He also seeds the doctor MORE THAN I DO.

And just to update you. I put NOTHING artificial in my body. I eat food that rots (eventually). No preservatives.

So tell yourself the following:

"What the heck do I have to lose, I might even like doing this"

For me, it's quite relaxing, and I can make a big deal out of sprouting, or I can just sprout one or two trays. It's the fact that you are growing your own food, WITHOUT PESTICIDES and if you look up what sprouts contain, well you just might see that this might be the thing you have been looking for to KEEP YOU GOING, and not go down that black hole.

I can only suggest this.

Look at my videos. Have a laugh or two at my expense. You can see the various methods I have tried.

For me, I healed my body nutritionally. I am almost off my insulin. Five years ago, I was on 46 units of Lantus and 2000 of some oral medication.

This morning I am down to 9 units AND NOTHING ELSE. And my glucose levels are just fine.

Now you might be saying "but she's a diabetic and I'm not a diabetic".

That's not my point.

My point is try and put some good LIVING FOOD in your body, and your body might just start cooperating.

There are no guarantees in life.

But right now, nothing else is working for you right?

I just want to help. Please believe that.

Melody

[Hello, Mark: Thank you for your message. I, too, wish I could be there to listen to your speech and to shake your hand. Good luck with your presentation. If it is as moving as your message, you will get rave reviews.

Hello, Alffe: Thanks for your latest contribution.

I, too, believe the discussion belongs on the suicide board. Should I cut and paste my note there? What's the best way to go? Thanks.

Tom, I left you a message. :)

Hello, Alffe: Message received. I think it would be best if the moderator made the move -- and included the message to which I responded (if that is O.K.) I'm still learning the ins and outs of neurotalk.

Your help is greatly appreciated. I thank you in advance.

Hi Tom
I have moved the whole thread to the SOS forum for you

good people here who understand:grouphug:

thank you Chemar! :hug:

Tom, I trust you will find us here. On rereading some of your posts..

"The question comes down to this: do I want to be a burden to my family and others for a long, long time, or to be a burden for a week or two, settling my estate and so forth? Both are burdens, but I submit the latter is a lesser one."

I beg to disagree with a week or two of grief. Trust me when I tell you that it years of guilt and pain when someone we love suicides. You say you are far away from family and friends...that surely must add to your depression. Those of us left behind always wonder if there was something we could have said or done...we ask WHY until we realize that we'll never know for sure...we say What IF....or IF only.....

I don't know if some of those links Lara left in the old assisted threads still work but they were excellent ones.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/conte...7/s1914206.htm

Welcome Tom to our little "family". We "get it" here...can't wait until you meet DMack (David). :grouphug:

Hello Ted welcome to SOS.....May I use your words in quote

“Darkness is setting in, along with profound sadness -- something beyond depression ("melancholia," perhaps). Again, more and more, I see no way out”.

Question: What Is Melancholia?
Answer: Melancholia is a profound presentation of depression. With this form of depression, there is a complete loss of pleasure in all or almost everything. The start of these episodes is usually not caused by a specific event, and even when something good happens, the individual's mood does not improve, not even for a short time. Melancholic features can be associated with a major depressive episode of Major Depression or Bipolar Disorder I and II.
Possible Presentations:
(at least three of these symptoms must be present for a diagnosis by DSM criteria)
• A distinct depressed mood - one is not simply sad or down due to a life event such as the death of a loved one
• Depression is consistently worse in the morning
• Early morning waking - at least two hours earlier than normal
• Psychomotor disturbances - either retardation (slowing of normal movement) or agitation
• Anorexia or weight loss
• Excessive or inappropriate guilt


Ted Melancholia is Depression.................
In your case brought about by enduring and excruciating pain.....
The pain and the physical conditions you describe and are you undiagnosed with must be so debilitating......
The Melancholia can be treated though!..................and if treated your physical symptoms may improve.
We all tend to see physical disease as the reason of our pain, mainly because the effects it has on our bodies, and the limitations it presents.
But depression is one hell of a beast that does not stop at altering our state of mind.......it literally eats are very body and soul.


M.E= in the UK used to be called YUPie flu......a YUPie was a young upwardly Professional individual.........apparently these young businesses people worked 14 hours a day...went to the gym....drank like fish......worked hard played hard etc............ then got struck down by a debilitating mystery illness that floored them.....some for months some for years..................depression is said to be rife in this condition................but what came first? Chicken or egg

Depression can be present in many Arthritic/immune suppressant conditions/ gastrointestinal conditions...and so on..............

Tom before speculating on your own death........please have your Melancholia treated.............it may alleviate some of the physical trauma you describe.

I crushed to vertebrae in lower spine; nearly twenty years ago.........suffered for years [still do] had facet joint injections and had 7 years free of pain......I have bi-polar 2 which keeps me on my toes, and know 100% my multitude of physical pains result from my mental health..............when I’m low I’m a mess and often fight the lure of suicide [or the beast as we call it on here]
But I keep thinking one day there will be a serious cure for depression.....and hope that will aliviate my other symptoms.......

Tom please stay around you have a great deal to contribute to this forum, and your eloquent manner and educated contribution deserves to be heard.
So stick around for the next forty years and lets share life’s experiences

David

When in Doubt Pray Like there is No Tomorrow
 

Tom-

Interesting, I had a friend by the name of Tom. He was advanced in age, in diabetes, in blindness exacerbated by diabetes, and he was tied to a dialysis machine far more than pure quality of life would tend to indicate. Together with his family and God he contemplated cessation of dialysis. An end to the treatments which could have but one certain effect, and now my friend Tom is no longer with us. We still mourn his passing, but sometimes as in cancer situations and the like one reaches the point when they wonder "should I continue?" I have friends who fight like the dickens continuing, because they see that as part of their legacy for their family, while still another who was DXed ALS lapsed into morosity until no longer was he effectively a participant in the family and his time was fairly brief.

As with my father, now DXed with Alzheimers and fading so very fast, should he, would he have chosen a different path. In this family historically beset with suicide, I am glad he did not. Far too often once priors go the way of the path to end pain immediately for themselves, the part of the equation not fully considered is what does the legacy breed within the family left behind? In the family of my progenitors, where cancer was cited as the reason a great grandmother who saw her beauty fade into grotesque hideous caricaturization of her former self, she opted for the way out. Later, others, seeing a progenitor do it, thought it might be the way too. Still later, another, distraught with back pain took himself in a way much less thoughtful than you have suggested and the whole of the family was left to pick up the pieces and clean the residue when the police had had their fill.

A cousin of mine, dear, very dear to me and but 18 at his death was thought to have ended it in a fiery crash on I-70 in Kansas City because he was overwrought with what comes in teen years. I was crushed for years. Not long after, I sought to end my own, having seen what my precious cousin had done. Sure, I had my excruciatingly painful teen years reason for wanting to. Oh, but the blood, and I botched it, could not finish, did not finish..... and then I went into denial, hiding, loathing of myself for what I had sought.

Why do I go through this litany? To bring to mind those who follow you. Those whose lives become left with having to pick up the pieces, those who might, just might be spurred on to action by your hand though you were not there to hold the weapon. Just a thought.

Fast forward decades. I was in a horrible car wreck. Left me needing multiples upon multiples of surgeries to put Humpty Dumpty together again. I will never NEVER be able to do all of the athletic stuff I used to enjoy with my family and friends, although after a fashion, I am trying to get back on my mountain bike again [had to take off the toe clips because with neuropathy, I cannot feel to get in and then cannot feel to get out].

I have had friend ask me why I had not ended all. Why did I endure pain when it was well known pain made me scream at the top of my blood curdling voice? How was I so strong, they asked? Had I somehow strengthened my faith?

Oh, faith is a huge part of the person I am in this life, and that faith carries me. Much as in the Footprints poem where God is carrying the one who needs Him most when the help was most needed. I have no strength, but by God. May sound mystical and all, but that is my inner strength.

Sure, I had done analysis after analysis, knowing the life insurance would more than provide what our estate did not to help my family through a suicide aftermath. BUT it came down to legacy. Oh sure, I had worked out a method and means to effect an end, maybe even clean enough so family would not have to pick up after me, but it was that legacy of my progenitors that haunted me and haunts me to this day.

How can I make a choice which affects not only me but those who follow in my footsteps, be they family or friend, acquaintance or NT follower? Is my action an independent isolated action which causes no reaction, or is my action something which regardless of my plan produces reaction beyond my understanding? I opted for action for which I could be accountable in person; thus, I write here, and write quite often, because through pain I have been working to my understanding of life, my importance in it to God to my family and anyone else whom I touch in person or cybernetically.

I have been granted a tremendous gift, the implant of a Boston Scientifc SCS unit to attempt better management of my pain through electronics and..... just perhaps without the need for all of the fist full of pills that used to sustain my morbid and declining existence. Hope..... there is much hope here. God? He has carried me so often that I wonder so how I could be worthy of the lift, and then I remember, "wait a minute, I cannot be worthy.... it is the matter of His caring in my life."

All of this being said Tom. I care for you. I will pray for you. You have so much of importance to decide in your life. No one can be responsible for you other than yourself. No one. As for me, I am thrilled that I still dwell among breathing people for the simple reason that we all matter. All of us.

May your decisions come through to you in the grace of a mind filled with peace, and may you glimpse joy.

Your friend,
Mark56:)

.Mark:

Beautifully said!! Very moving.

Melody

Death...not the answer
 

Tom, death is not the answer to what ails us. We cannot help others nor ourselves by trying to take, what we think is, "the easy way out". You are still a young man being I'm 64 and have a lot of life still in me. Don't give into the words "old age", it's a mind thing. "As a man thinketh, so is he". I use to have very bad pains in my legs to the point of my right knee giving out on me. I am not one to take medication except once in a while an Excedrin. I found other alternatives to medicine. I changed my diet....when we reach a certain age there are some foods our body can no longer handle. I eat more fruits and vegetables now and have totally taken red meat out of my diet. I use to walk and exercise a lot, but I felt I over did it. I had to learn to balance life out, and learn to listen to my body. Your body tells you what it needs, believe it or not. I also (please don't think that I'm crazy, but) talked to my pain, because I believe we all have the power within to heal ourselves, we just have to change our thinking.
We never know what life will deal us, but we have to be prepare to deal with life and choose to change it around to benefit us to the best we can with whatever situation we face. I have observed so many people, old and young faced with horrific conditions, however they beat the odds by choosing to live their lives to the fullest in the condition they are dealing with, for instance Steven Hawking. Hawking has a neuro-muscular dystrophy that is related to amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, a condition that has progressed over the years and has left him almost completely paralysed, however his brain is still functioning and he is still teaching other people with what function he has left. He's looking at life with respect to it and choosing to 'live' it to best he can with what he has left of it. I hope you choose to live life to it's fullest and not shorten it, because you don't know what you mean to someone else in your life.
God bless you and keep talking and sharing with others.
....ask not what have you done for me lately, but what have I done for you lately... Rakeitha

Hello, Mark: Thanks for your moving and thoughtful message.

Yes, the idea of legacy has entered my head, too. Nobody in my family, to my knowledge, has committed suicide or taken their own life. My mother, who was in a nursing home for almost 4 years, told me she wanted to die, and I believed her; however, it was too late. She was entirely in the hands of other people, inside a "soft" "caring" prison. If she would have had the pill, she would have taken it inside of two seconds.

I think people considering taking their lives should give as full an account as is possible as to WHY they did it. Yes, they will leave a legacy -- but that legacy need not be a "bad" one. I see little comparison between a distraught 20-something whose girlfriend left him and a 60-plus man suffering from a debilitating, unknown, apparently not curable disease. The latter person needs to state his case clearly, so that the former will not -- cannot -- see it as an example to follow.

You mention your faith in God. I wonder ... what are we to make of Jesus' death? Did Jesus "commit suicide?" After all, he had the power to stop his death, but did not use it. Or, did Jesus "give up his own life," rather than commit suicide? I am inclined toward the latter conclusion. I'm beginning to think that suicide has a large anger component, which "taking/giving up one's own life" lacks. (Despite their claims to be serving a higher ideal, "suicide bombers" are thus appropriately named; their videoed confessions before they strike exhibit great anger, hatred). Maybe, Jesus' death is what made him truly human; had he waved his hand and destroyed his opponents, we'd be talking about something else. Difficult, probably unanswerable questions -- which makes them so compelling. They don't call it the greatest book ever written for nothing.

Rakeitha:

I am so glad you wrote what you did. I'm a big believer in putting good stuff in our bodies.

Thanks for writing what you did. When I first came on this thread and read the various postings, the first thing that popped into my head was Steven Hawking, a man stuck in a body that is practically frozen, but his mind is on a different level than all of us.

I don't know how he has lasted so long, but God Bless that man.

Mel

Hello, Alffe: Thanks for your thoughtful words. "Why?" "What if?" Well, thanks to this forum, it's becoming clear to me that PRECISELY what is needed for someone contemplating taking their own life, is to fill in the blanks as much as possible. That means leaving a written legacy. Of course, those accounts can never be complete; perhaps, that is the way it should be. "Wonder is the beginning of philosophy": Aristotle.

I read the full 4corners transcipt, about elderly, very aware people thinking about ending their lives. Something else is shaping up: I'm not sure that those people should be placed in the category of "suicide." In their case (and mine, I'm beginning to suspect), people who are elderly, in pain (or severe discomfort), facing a disease with no known cure and which is getting worse, are not in the same boat -- although we put them there -- as people who commit suicide for other reasons, e.g., economic hard times. Eventually, maybe this forum will make the distinction which presently is lacking. For now, our vocabulary lacks words and expressions to fill that gap. As more people live longer, have more physical and psychological problems, the terminology will emerge.

Hello, David: Thank you for your information on melancholia and comments. You confirmed my initial perception that, given the fact I have three of the symptoms mentioned, I have something on the order of melancholia. I definitely do not have a bipolar problem: I have zero moments of elation. Zero.

I have no doubt whatsoever that our mental condition has repercussions on our physical existence. As I'm sure you are aware, there are numerous pills out there that can "fix" the problem for a few hours, then leave you in a vegetative state. So, it's a question of staying clear of them.

As for the physical side: the arthritis shows up on xrays. As for the nerve condition, the EMG showed there is a big problem in my legs. I wish it were just "old age," but it's something else. I also wish it was indeed entirely psychological. Well, as the French say, "on verra." We will see. Otherwise, do you have a specific treatment to suggest?

Thanks for being here, David -- and for being you.

Tom

Tom


I Have no elation at all..........i only suffer depressive symptoms.....though the racing thoughts...and bursts of creativity are said to be the other side of my BP....[i actualy thought they were the better half of me, and dont on the whole cause me great concern...........im more productive in that mood] so dont be fooled that BP is UP............DOWN....[mine feels all down]

As to suggesting any treatments ?............exercise.....of mind and body....and plenty of H20........thats my only advice Tom...........

Im sorry that your pain........is so disturbing

David

Hello, Rakeitha and Melody: Thank you both immensely for your posts.

Melody, I do eat well, a full and balanced diet. Too much sugar and salt, no doubt. Sprouts? Your prior message was the first time I ever heard of them. No doubt I could improve things by eating better; the question is, how much better? Yes, I believe in alternative medicine, and did yoga (Hatha) for 6 months or so. I take homeopathic medicine now. It's just that, well, at the end of the day, the thought keeps reappearing: my time has come. I know that people here refer to suicide as the "beast." I would say that taking one's life when the time comes, is not suicide; hence, the beast is either absent altogether or of an entirely different nature.

Rakeitha, you mention Steven Hawking. He is a hero to me -- much as Johnny Weismuller was to all us kids in the polio ward (he had polio and went on to become a world champion swimmer). Such people move the goalposts for everybody else; indeed, they provoke changes OF, not just IN, the game. Yet there is a price to be paid, even in their case: go to http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=577 for another person's view, i.e., his ex-wife.

No, I don't feel bad because I am "old;" I feel old because I feel bad. I looked around for a quote from Hawking on suicide, and couldn't find one. I wonder if anybody has ever bothered to ask him about it: Dave, talk about the elephant in the room -- that one is no elephant, he's a mammoth!

Hi.

Honestly, from what you have written, I gather no one here can talk you out of doing what you are set on doing. I recently put up a thread on an amazing man with no arms and no legs (who also thought of suicide at the age of eight), because he didn't want to be a burden on his family.

That man is now an adult and he travels extensively as a motivational speaker helping THOUSANDS of the disabled and the non-disabled. He even made me laugh when he played music with his little flipper foot. He has SOME sense of humor.

He made the young people in the room, laugh and cry. He explained his way of thinking, his belief system (this is what I think got him to the point where he is today).

He found a purpose for his life. Not a reason for being disabled, but a purpose for his existence.

We all have purpose. Some don't find it until we are older than usual. But I think everyone has a purpose.

We just need to find what that purpose is and what we can do with it.

I wish you well on your journey to whatever you decide is in your best interest.

I can only hope it's to continue to exist, to reach out, to make someone smile, to give someone a compliment.

TO LIVE!!!

As Spock used to say

Live Long and Prosper!!

and yeah, I GREW UP ON STAR TREK!!! And I try to use humor every single day.

lol

Melody

http://tetchua.blogspot.com/2007/12/...ical-view.html

***********************************

Hello, Alffe:

First, for a needed laugh, to see the source of your avatar, the singin' dancin' frog, go to http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=I45u...eature=related.
"One Froggy Evening": Nobody who sees that cartoon will ever forget it. It came out in 1955: what a year -- the same year as "Rebel Without A Cause" and "Blackboard Jungle," the two pillars of the youth culture. "How Much is That Doggy in The Window," "Tennessee Waltz," "Shrimp Boats" -- after 1955 American popular music never went back. The same was true for many other things -- for better and for worse. In brief, Alffe, your avatar is on the cutting edge -- which edge I'm not sure, maybe of the absurdity of life.

Your post is WONDERFUL!! Its link is easy to overlook, so look again everybody! http://tetchua.blogspot.com/2007/12/...ical-view.html.

The best comment I ever found about all that was Albert Camus' question to nihilists: if life is meaningless, then how can death be meaningful? (Unfortunately, perhaps, nihilism isn't my problem, but so be it). Elsewhere, Camus says to wouldbe Che Guevaras and others ready to die for an idea: anything worth dying for must also be worth living for. Kirilov, Dostoevsky's nihilist in "The Possessed," makes many unacceptable declarations before killing himself; however, he says one thing with true clarity: free will, such as is manifested in the determination to take one's own life, is what is devine in mankind. Of course, free will can be manifested in many ways, probably as many as there are people.

Again, I thank you for something I'll be going back to -- frequently. Right now, for example

Hello, Melody: Thanks for your latest contribution.

Yes, I watched your post on the man without limbs. Such people make the unimaginable real, actual. He's onto something profound: you can get away with doing things in a funny way which might cause riots if stated in a serious essay.

"I think everybody has a purpose." I do, too. I also think that at 66, my purpose may be behind me -- although right now, as I write these words, I sense another purpose emerging: help people see that taking one's own life and suicide are not necessarily the same thing.

You note, "I gather no one here can talk you out of doing what you are set on doing." I wonder ... is one of the differences between taking one's own life and suicide PRECISELY that in the former, there is indeed nothing you can talk them out of, whereas in the latter -- say a teenager sitting on the ledge of a building -- there is the material there to talk them down? "Talk them out of" implies misplaced emotions, mistaken ideas. Can it be that somebody can take their own life and have well-founded emotions and mature, rational ideas? Is that possible?

Suicide is a "beast" -- I agree with neurotalk members on that point. But what about "taking one's own life" due to an incurable disease and increasing weakness and constant discomfort and/or pain?

Hi.

I absolutely see your point. There is a MAJOR difference between having a terminal painful illness, and a teenager suffering angst and thinking "oh woe is me, she doesn't love me anymore, my life is meaningless" BIG DIFFERENCE.

It brings to mind a very good film by the name of Soylent Green. I don't know if you've heard of it, or seen it but it brings up what a person might be able to do (in a far distant future society), when Euthanasia might be legal.

In the film Edward G. Robinson is a very old, wise man who is helping Charlton Heston discover the secret of WHAT IS SOYLENT GREEN?

But in the film, there is this big building where people can go and take that journey that they are determined to take.

It's probably up on youtube.

The way they explain it is that the elderly or the terminally ill, can walk into a center and they can achieve their goals in a beautiful, peaceful, pain-free manner.

I was always moved by the scene where Charlton Heston arrives just in time to be with Edward G. Robinson as he exits his existence. I remember saying 'I wonder if our world will ever allow this to happen".

Of course, this does not exist at present. Perhaps some other countries have this,but I've never heard of it.

I don't think people who have a religion, well I don't believe ANY religion would condone this kind of ending.

Maybe SOME DAY down the road, this might happen, but in our present society we have pain meds, hospice and whatever we need to do.

Just know, whatever you do decide to do, I wish you God speed.

You sound like a brilliant man who has given this a lot of thought.

What's my purpose in life at the moment? To keep reading posts and continue to learn.

I have learned more since I hit 60 than I EVER learned when I was younger.

I'm like a completely different human being and my brain is like a little sponge and I want to absorb everything.

I'm not religious whatsoever but I am spiritual. I believe in positive energy and not in negative energy.

So keep posting, you have much to teach us.

Melody

Hi Melody

Quote from you

I absolutely see your point. There is a MAJOR difference between having a terminal painful illness, and a teenager suffering angst and thinking "oh woe is me, she doesn't love me anymore, my life is meaningless" BIG DIFFERENCE


Anyone considering taking their life.......... Is in my humble opinion a tragedy ......the above analogy is rather harsh in the way it defines the act/thought of suicide to only be comprehensible by a more mature mind........sadly the act of suicide amongst teenagers is rife in the UK 2003 totalled 5755 .................And i would hesitate to guess quite a few may have been feeling . 'woe is me'

mountains and molehills......................whatever age or gender....creed or colour.....................................whats a huge dilemma to one is a mere drop in the ocean for another............



Please lets all be aware there are many people who read this forum.......and when it comes to SUICIDE...............IT DOES NOT DICRIMINATE ON A PERSONS AGE OR INTELECTUAL BACKGROUND...........It justs lures you just the same

David

in no way said to offend ......just stating an opinion:hug:

Thanks David...best we start using the trigger icon...:hug:

I agree.................

plus this is a huge subject .................in all of its connotations

hence Tom.................. a change of Avatar is required from elephant to MAMOUTH

David