Guns and Bars Vent
 

It is sometimes embarrassing to be living in Arizona.

Seems the legislature is dumb as a box of rocks.

It is now okay to carry a concealed gun into a bar! I am just waiting for the first shoot-out at the Okay Corral.

Alcohol and guns in public places?:eek:

Somehow it does not make Arizona an attractive place to visit during our wonderful warm Winter months.

Sheesh.....in the days of the OK Corral, they wore their guns on their hips....no concealing them, then.:rolleyes:

I know; I could not believe it either but the owner still has the right to put up a sign which prohibits guns.

It really creeps me out seeing people "packing" here even though I don't see it too often in our little town.

When we visit the larger cities it seems everyone has a gun. :eek:

DH has a concealed permit and he does carry when we go for road trips to larger cities where it is legal. :cool:

There is just so much crime out there it scares the puddin' out of us. :eek:

What I read in the AZ Republic newspaper was that those with a concealed weapons permit are allowed to enter but they cannot drink. And if the owners of the establishments do not want them to enter, then they can post signs to that effect.

:eek:It's a dam* good thing I don't bar hop anymore.:eek: They actually interviewed a bar owner on the news and he was saying that even if they kept it in the car there still would be trouble with or without a sign. Mind you, this particular bar just had a shooting in the parking lot a few weeks ago.

Pretty sad.

OH and they are still trying to work out the budget so that the AZ Department of Safety doesn't have to shut down.:eek: So lets see if this makes sense, allow the weapons in bars and shut down the Public Safety Department; leaving the city police department to deal with it.:confused:

Driving and drinking are against the law, but guns and alcohol are encouraged. :eek: ..I think the gun lobby has gone too far here..:mad:

Leave it to someone to think that a concealed weapon will be produced to the owner of the establishment so that he/she has a say-so about whether the gun owner can come in.

Oh wait, let's have the gun owner shoot someone and then the AZ district attorney can prosecute!

Yep, this is the wild west at its worst, more like stupid.

Actually, back in the days of the Old West, they had gun laws. Places like Dodge City and Deadwood had ordinances at times where everyone had to surrender their weapons to the local constabulary/sheriff's office.

I'm sure there were people back then who still carried concealed weapons, but a lot of the towns back then, you were not allowed to openly carry guns. It's Hollywood that's made people think that gunslingers (not a term used in those days, that's another Hollywood-ism) were shooting up every town they went into.


It's not the weapons you have to worry about anyways, it's the people holding the weapons that cause all the problems. I'm all for concealed carry permits. Most people who get the permits are going to follow the law. It's the ones who are illegally carrying that are going to be causing most of the problems.

I live in an open carry state. We can carry anywhere, anytime. To carry concealed you need a permit. We have had this law for a very long time, and there is no more/less gun violence because of it. Those who bother to take the time to file for a permit, do the paperwork, follow the rules, are generally not the ones you need to worry about. The criminal element isnt gonna fill out paperwork, wait two weeks for a clearance, nor is he going to pay attention to any sign on any door. He is already packing heat, and has been for years.

We are talking Arizona, home of the militia movement. Home of a guy that took a huge rifle to an event hosting the President of the United States.

And politics has nothing to do with my statement.

I would have been embarrassed no matter what side of the aisle had been speaking. A good host does not THREATEN. Guns had no place at a rally, no place at that particular event.

I know people that carry guns. In fact, one of the doctors I know keeps a gun in his car glove compartment. Some yahoo carrying a concealed weapon just because he can does not make it okay. And trust me, we have A LOT OF YAHOO'S in Arizona.

Alcohol can make people stupid. Add guns to alcohol and that can make for a dangerous combination.

Everything has its place but not every place should have a thing.

There are stupid people everywhere, and I agree that this isn't a good idea. :eek: Guns are dangerous but in the hands of drunks, they are a recipe for disaster. I don't care what the NRA says.

Who says the guy with a legally registered firearm, with a concealed carry permit who goes to a bar with his weapon is going to get drunk??

Just because he's in a bar, and armed, doesnt mean that he's going to suddenly get stupid, drink too much and shoot up the place.

Seems to me that if he's legally licensed to carry gun, with the proper permits to carry it concealed, and he went thru all the trouble to be able to do that, he's going to be responsible enough to not whip his gun out after downing a dozen beers and shoot up the place. (not everyone goes to a bar to drink alcohol. I never did...I went to the bar to play darts and hang out with my friends)

Of course, not everyone is going to be like that, but I would like to think the stupid ones are going to be a small minority.

My state as well had folks show up to the Obama rally WITH fire arms strapped on. As I said, we are an open carry state, and they were expressing their 2nd amendment rights. The right to bear arms. it is in the constitution that we are allowed to carry such things. My constitution tells me I am allowed to carry/use such things. I am well trained, well educated, a non drinker, and a responsible citizen. its the citizen that doesnt apply for permits, classes, or education that scares me. Sorry, not gonna give up my gun. Not for a public rally, nor a private meeting.

That was my point. If I saw you walking with a gun, or a member of the Marines, etc... it wouldn't bother me one bit. There are lots of stupid people that hang out in bars. I know, I live in a college town and read about the fights that happen twice a week downtown. Here, that would be a disaster. :icon_eek:

Get real. People with CCW licenses are educated, and responsible people. 40 other states allow this and there are rarely, if ever, instances of problems.

I am a supporter of the law and was a CCW holder for many years. It's still a law that you can't carry a gun and drink. I am proud to support our 2nd amendment and will be forever.

Lets try to keep this friendly peeps!:)

That was my point. Those who fill out the paper work, get the education classes required for a basic license, and practice with their weapons are not a problem. its my RIGHT as an American to be able to carry a weapon. Its not a wish, or a desire, or a possibility, its my right! I personally would feel much safer going into a bar setting with someone that has taken the time to fill out the papers, done the courses, and is responsible enough to follow the rules to CCWs and sit and have a lunch, or a meeting, than random places with folks that "wanna pack heat" or do it cause its cool.

I am in favor of the law being passed, and feel its a good thing to keep all legal, and above board. Its not those that follow those laws that are the trouble spot in the violence in our society. its those that break, or feel themselves to be above or beyond the law.

The same law passed here in my state, and we feel its a good thing. If some random gang banger comes in to rob the bar or its patrons, he will think twice if he knows that he isnt facing an unarmed crowd, or unprotected patron. Surprise! yep, you can have my watch, and wallet, but youre gonna have to work harder than that for it.

Firearms
Distances Bullets Travel

here's neat chart-
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning.../bullets.phtml

Oh my, you gun toters..:D Forgive us, if we cringe at the thought of everyone with a hidden gun, especially in a bar..:eek:

This laws seems to put a rather large burden on tavern owners.

I don't think I'd be willing to tell a man with a gun that he couldn't have a beer. If it's illegal to carry and drink, will the barkeepers be held responsible if they serve an armed patron who then brandishes or discharges his weapon in their establishment? Will they have to check for firearms like they check IDs for age?

I can just see it now. In addition to a Bouncer, there will be a Security Gate similar to that in an airport to get in the door of a bar. :rolleyes:

How Many --
 

I agree with you on these points. When I read this in the paper it just seemed so nutty that it was unbelievable.

Do you have any idea what the purpose for toting guns in the bar was?

gmi

We have been visiting or living in the Phoenix area for over 25 years and I have never seen anyone wearing a gun unless they were policemen. Where are you seeing the gun toters?

gmi

I have no clue as to how this whole gun/bar "right" got started or why. I am sure it has something to do with the 2nd Amendment. The first two Amendments seem to be getting a lot of cable air time recently.

There better not be any cheaters at the poker tables!!:D:D I am too slow to dodge a stray bullet from the bad guy or the good guy.:p

It seems as if there was alot of fear in my own towns when these bill passed through our system. Folks were worried that we would have folks toting guns into the grocery stores, and day care centers. What we found out is that no more, and no less folks were carrying guns as a result of that law. The bar owners do have the ability to put up a sign that says "no guns allowed" same as the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" sign. The media slant on the way they reported the bill made it appear as if we had a bunch of vigilantes that were gun slinging in the local saloons and bar fights were gonna be with bullets instead of fists now. They made it sound like if you lived near any of these local places, your family was in danger of a stray bullet.


Its been 2 years since this passed in my state, and no one more fight, or one less fight has resulted in the case of this law. It simply means those who have been carrying OPEN (you can see it on their hip) like the guy at the obama rally with the AK47 strapped to his back, are now give permission to carry a concealed weapon. Meaning they can pop it in a holster UNDER their jacket, or in the waist band of their pants, or in a holster on their leg. it means they can keep it from plain view. Many bar owners for months put up signs that said "no concealed weapons allowed" Many bar owners removed those signs 6 months later, when they found out that they lost a good deal of business. Folks didnt want to lock their gun up in their car, before stopping off for a beer with their friends, and started chosing bars that didnt ask them to leave their gun behind. These folks had carrying for years, and felt their 2nd amendment rights were being squashed, and voted with their wallets to avoid that bar.

2 years later, it hasnt made one single fight worse/better in bar. The local news reporter is a "free stater" and did a follow up peice, that showed 100% of ALL bar fights within this state that involved a gun, involved an UNregistered, UNlicensed gun, and usually it was a person with a warrent for their arrest already. meaning they were not prone to follow the rules to start with.

again, I say its not those who take the time to fill out the paperwork, train, and practice with their weapon. If some knuckle head wanted to rob the bar, and came in guns blazing with a head full of crack, when we all hit the floor, I would rather be laying next to someone who could protect me. The media ticks me off! they make it sound like children are being snatched off every corner (we have LESS child abductions today then 10 years ago) or that danger lurks everytime you turn on your own faucet at home.

I would like to see our world build each other up. Support each other. Be tolerant of each other. The media has cause so many to fear their neighbors, or fear allowing their children to go trick or treat! its sad.

I hear all of your positive statistics, Dej, but that's all they are. Owning Guns for any reason, in this day and age is not only unnecessary, but dangerous, in my view.

If noone had guns, including the police, then, wouldn't this be a friendlier place to be?? We are all capable of violence or just losing control, at any given time. Carrying a gun, could possibly make that moment, deadly, for someone.

I know guns don't kill people...people do....but, if that person didn't have a gun, then just maybe, that other person wouldn't die.

Stepping off soap box and quietly backing out of room......DON'T SHOOT!!:D

I said *maybe* :p

I am an avid hunter. We eat and use every peice and part of the animal killed. I live in the boonies. I want a gun for my protection. I wont hesitate to shoot you if you threaten me or my family. I worked in the prisons for greater than 20 years. I KNOW how voilent folks can get. My husband was a Marine for a long time, and learned well how to use, store, clean, and operate many different types of guns. He too hunts, and is a respectful hunter. Much more of our meats come from the local farm or our hunts than any grocery store.

Yes, Sally wouldnt it be great if we could all hold hands and pat each other on the back? The problem is that not everyone wants to hold your hand. Not everyone who does want to hold your hand, wants to do it for the right reasons. With the explosion of violence on TV, computers, Video games, and inner city BS we have become so desensitized to violence that we think nothing of ramping it up a notch or two.

If there are no guns (including the police) then pretty soon, we will have to ban clubs, rocks, knives and tasers, and paintguns, and so forth. Trust me, human nature doesnt lend itself to being peace filled. That is a wonderful idea, but unfortunatly the rest of the world is not going to follow along. We have a very very very long way to go, before we can even attempt such things. I do like the idea of it, but cannot see how it could become a reality.

I like my guns. I am well practiced with my guns. I have a variety of guns. I have a gun safe with a lock on it. its bolted to the floor. My guns are registered. I have all my paper work filled out, and I maintain safety education classes, and keep practiced. While most of my guns live in my safe, you betcha that one lives at my bedside, or on my person. Many of our forefathers died so that we could maintain the rights and liberties that we do have, and one of those is the right to bear arms. Sorry, not gonna give up my gun, not now, not in the future, not even if I woke up and saw sunshine and puppies falling from the skies. I like my guns.

No need to try to make me feel silly and naive for wanting peaceful times, Dej.:rolleyes:

I know how scary the world is. I'm just thinking, it would be a little less scary, without guns, that's all....silly me!!;)

Are you still able to use your guns, Dej? I mean, are you still able to practice firing them? I can no longer pull the trigger.....I have lost that much strength in my hands and fingers. Maybe if I used a much smaller gun I might be able to but I just have the one Beretta.

My son taught me how to use a gun. Took me to the gun range and everything. He's a police officer and wanted me to know how to protect myself.

Since I can no longer safely fire the gun I've given it to him for safekeeping. I'm not a big fan of guns but I have to admit I did feel safer when I had one and knew I could use it if need be.

Sally, OMG! I so never, ever want you to feel naive or silly! EVER! I love your idea of a peacefilled world. I want to live there myself. I am sorry if it came off that way. :hug:

Kitt I have a Baretta Px4 storm and its very light weight and has a short trigger so my lil hand fits it well. I LOVE this gun! it about half the weight of my other Baretta that was a 380. This new one is a 9mm. its quick, responsive, and quite easy to use. Its about $600 so not real cheap, but not bad either. Ask your son to show you the Single action which is MUCH easier to pull on the trigger. The old Double action guns were so much harder to pull. This one also comes with three grip sizes, so it fits the smallest hand, like mine, or my husbands hand. I have been ever so happy that I traded in my old baretta for this one. Plus the hubby says its Italian! whats not to like? Silly goat. I have found that as MS has marched forward, I did have to adjust to it. Things like the single vs double action, and a more comfy grip.

Hugs for Sally. I didnt mean any offense. You know I luv ya! :hug:

yes, sorrry...kitty. :o

I knew ya meant me! :D

Just some thoughts . . .

It is my understanding that the bartenders cannot serve alcohol to anyone with a gun. Not sure how this is going to work out and as Hockey and Cyn pointed out how are they going to control that? Give the bouncers metal detecting wands? Check for licenses? Make the gun carrier wear a special wristband? Who knows.

Also, what extra insurance and liability will bar owners now need in order to keep themselves and their business protected. How many of them will end up going out of business due to this?

In bars these days, more than alcohol is being served. Just head to the bathroom and you see it all and smell it all. Scary thought, but a reality. I don't generally go to bars as I am in bed too early (LOL) but over the past year I have been to them a couple of times. Some of these were "nice" bars with people walking around with white under their noses.:rolleyes: So, our pistol packing buddies can head to the bathroom and get something other than alcohol.:eek: Heck, they can just go to the dance floor and get something. It is truly amazing and shocking to watch.

I know many people who are certified to carry a gun and are gun enthusiasts. One friend in particular carries his gun all the time - never concealed and in a holster. While this group is responsible even when drinking, they all agree how quickly things can get out of hand and how perceptions get distorted when alcohol is involved.

I also know of some one that had a scary experience. While driving home from work in rush hour traffic, some idiot started yelling at him on the road. He was going the speed limit and the other driver was trying to get around him and couldn't due to traffic. So the driver starts screaming and yelling. My friend pulled over in to a parking lot to get away from the nut case. This nut case pulled in to the parking lot too and pulled out a gun and pointed it at my friend.:eek: My friend peeled out of the parking lot as quickly as possible. This nut job could have been certified, licensed, etc. but snapped. Just because someone goes through all that training, certification, etc. doesn't mean they won't snap either under pressure or with alcohol.

Also, it is not just bars that are a concern. So often on the news you hear of families getting together, drinking, and someone ends up shooting their own family member. Alcohol was involved in most of these cases. Working in the hospital for years, I have learned how common this is; more than what they put on the news. It is truly sad.

So, those are my thoughts.

And just tell me why a respectable gun toting citizen would go to a bar, if he didn't want to drink????

Thanks Trish. I echo many of your thoughts.

I support the 2nd Amendment. That is not the issue I originally brought up.

I take prescription drugs. Many of these drugs can be /are abused. However, I am a responsible person under the direction of my equally responsible doctor.

There is a good place for guns and a good reason for a gun (not for me but I do respect others).

Concealed gun in a bar? Cannot go there with you. I have never heard of anyone holding up patrons in a bar. Stagecoach days are over, holding up an train went out of vogue with Jesse James and his ilk.

If you want to hunt, okay. I could not kill an animal and eat it. I can just go to a grocery store and eat the products sold, not wildlife. But that is my choice.

Home invasion? luckily rare in my neighborhood, in fact never.

Circumstances dictate gun use. Guns in bars, just ridiculous in my never so humble opinion.