B12
 

I just wanted to share that I saw my general MD last week and it happened on a day where I was done with my Nuvigil and my insurance isn't going to cover it again. I was faced with knowing I'd have all that fatigue again, and she suggested B12.

I was skeptical and didn't think it would really work, but I have seen a noticeable increase in my energy level since I've been on it. I take 1,000 micrograms a day in place of the Nuvigil and it gives me enough energy to get my kids off the bus and start dinner.

I don't know if it's just me, or if as I use it more it won't work as well, but I'm excited that something natural can give me the boost I need in place of something like Nuvigil.

Any thoughts?

Kate,

B-12 is a serious part of my daily regimen. I take about 400 micrograms daily. 1000 micrograms sounds high unless you have had blood work done to show a deficiency. It is thought that B-12 can be overdosed. It has been suggested that high doses can cause excessive cell regeneration to the point of cancer.

There are two forms of B-12. One is oral and the other is injected. Some people do not uptake the oral B-12 sufficiently so they need the shots.

I was given B-12 injections once a week for 8 weeks back in 1983 for a serious decompensation. It helped greatly.

On Wednesday, I get my labs read by my new physician. He has had me tested for B-12 along with hormones and such.. I am interested in what he finds as I take 380 mcgs of B-12 daily.

Hey Mark,

Thanks for that information. My MD did find a B12 deficiency and a Vit D deficiency. She wanted to try the B12 b/c of my fatigue and she put me at a higher number b/c I have been having some twitching/spasms in my right hand/forearm. She thinks it might help.

I'm not sure, but at least I'm getting the boost I need. I want to call her and ask her about what she thinks about the excessive cell regeneration. I certainly don't need cancer on top of all this junk! ;-)

I'm taking it orally, not injections. She also wants to do a lumbar puncture to see if there are high protiens pointing to MS. She thinks there may be a possibility that the head injury could have brought out MS symptoms due to an excess of stress. I'm not sure, but I see my neuro on the 15th of this month and I will ask him more about all this.

I think my MD is great, and definately proactive. She ran the blood b/c she found high billirubin levels, and I have to see a GI about that.

Don't you sometimes feel like you are falling apart!?!?

Just to settle some minds here...

There is no upper limit for B12 dosing. There are no reported toxic effects from high doses.

In fact less than 10% of any dose is absorbed orally by passive diffusion. The lowest dose we use on PN board here is 1000mcg daily.

In US we have antiquated testing ranges. Here very low readings are considered "normal" when in fact they are not.
In other countries, people are treated with levels below 500 or so.

The various nutritional experts have recommended that all people 50 and over take a supplement for this vitamin since so many are low, and that being low contributes to neurological symptoms and deterioration.

People with intact intrinsic factor functioning, will absorb more than 10%. But today with acid reducing drugs etc, that function is not reliable.

So taking 1000mcg is not "dangerous". But not taking enough may be not effective.

We have a thread on PN here:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread85103.html

Oral supplements of B12 should be taken on an empty stomach for best results.

Never be satisfied with "normal" from your doctor. Get the actual numbers! We see this error every day just about at the PN board here.
People being told they are "normal" when they are NOT.

Kate

I believe in your case being on a high dosage of B12 might be a short lived
thing. Maybe just till you get your levels back up.

The other thing to help with the Vitamin D is to take a Multi Vitamin daily.
This really should help that part I would think. I know that it did me
for a while.

Donna

I am sorry, I don't agree. If someone is low, you need to find out why.
People don't get low unless a serious condition is present.

1) long term veganism (with no dairy, eggs)
2) malabsorption from gluten intolerance ( or damage to the GI tract)
3) pernicious anemia ( lack of intrinsic factor)
4) use of metformin or acid blocking drugs. (also long term antibiotic treatments as used in Lyme disease)
5) loss of stomach acid capability

Chances are once you have become low, you will need supplementary B12 for life. Correcting a level for B12 does not correct the reason it became low.

Here is the new medical video on Vit D. The amounts previously considered normal are very outdated now. A multivit does not provide adequate levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ-qekFoi-o

The new vit D information is critical for health today. Please watch this video from Univ. Calif San Diego medical school.

My wife's physician has told her that Vit D deficiency takes months (6 or so) of supplementation to restore to a normal level. Getting sun exposure is an important need. Older people often have a decreased ability to get Vit D from sun exposure. High longitude (above 42 degrees) makes sun exposure much less effective in the six colder months.

kate, It is good to hear that your doc tested you for Vit B-12. Maybe the 1000 mcg is good for you. It will be interesting to see a follow up B-12 test.

Sometimes, they test for Vit D. Some studies claim that the tests are prone to underestimating the Vit D deficiency since it has so many forms in the body before it gets to the usable form.

As mrsD said, get a look at the real numbers from the lab work. Is your doc using 'old school' standards or is he using more current values?


The RDA as prescribed by our FDA is woefully inadequate.

Thanks Mrs. D. I wasn't meaning she shouldn't know the reason for being
low. But to start on B12 till they find out I didn't think there was anything
wrong with it.

I do now that my mother is given the shots for B12 or I believe that is what
she said. I'll have to ask her now.

I might be wrong it might be B6.

Donna

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all for your responses. I spoke with my MD yesterday, and wasn't able to post until now. She said the same that Mrs. D said, the 1000 micrograms is not dangerous. I wasn't able to get the actual levels from her, but I will at the next appointment.

I don't think anything she does is "old school". I will certainly ask, but she is young and seems to be current on everything. I have never had such a fantastic general MD.

She reinforced that the B12 is supposed to help with neurological functions, and that it may help with the twitching in my hand. She said that the increased energy is another benefit from it, but not what she was going for, but it's great that I have it.

When I see my neuro on the 15th, she wants me to go over it all with him and see if he will do a LP to check for evidence of MS. She thinks it could be a possibility, but that the twitching may just be another side effect of my head injury.

I'll keep everyone posted, and thanks again for all the added info!

Twitches
 

I had a fair number of twitches in the aftermath of my TBI. My hands shook for the first year. They're pretty good now - but I don't know if that's healing or meds. I also had a twitch that made me blink my eye. A lot of old guys at the grocery store thought it was their lucky day - or not.;)

I don't think there is an upper limit established for B12. Does anyone know?

You are correct... no upper limit established.
There are studies on PubMed from Japan that used 40 MILLIGRAMS per dose in fact for an MS study. I don't recommend that, of course.

However, cyano version of B12 is not metabolized well in some people...some cannot handle the cyanide portion, of this synthetic version.

That is why using methylcobalamin (or hydroxycobalamin) is safer--hydroxy costs more however-- is the best way to go.

The methyl version is the exact same as the active version in the body.

The only reported side effects for high dose B12 (and 1000mcg oral is not high dose since it is not all absorbed)... is acne. And that is with the cyano type.

There is a new oral coming out ...here is the link to it:

http://www.emisphere.com/oral_vitamin_b12.html

Don't know what type it is yet, however. Expect it to cost more than the methyl that many of us use already.

I would think that a B-12 blood test will best predict how you assimilate B-12. I take 380 mcg B-12 daily. My recent B-12 level was 1060. My nutrition physician said that it is an optimum level. The standards say much less than 900.

I take 1400 IUs of D3 but my blood level was low. He wants me to add another 3000 IUs to my daily regimen.

He wants me to read "The Edge" by Eric Braverman, MD.

Has anybody read "The Edge" ?

I am reading The Edge Effect now. I am not terribly impressed with it... but it has some interesting comments. I guess my biggest problem, is that Dr. Braverman attributes so many diseases and conditions in long list format to each neurotransmitter...without proof or validation. Often hypertension is listed with hypotension. ?? Duh???He claims to use Growth hormone on just about everyone...and this bothers me too.

It seems a bit grandiose for me. So read it carefully. I find it overwhelming, and complex. And I have read many many books of this type, and this one is giving me "trouble".
For example, he recommends using Aspartame for every patient.
This is problematic for me right there. If you go to Amazon and read the comments, you'll see what others think too.
He is also a big fan of bioidentical hormone treatment.

I found this book much more useful:
http://books.google.com/books?id=SPG...age&q=&f=false

I agree. Recommending "Aspartame" is a big concern for me too. Does he think we have agricultural pests in our bodies. Aspartame was originally developed as a pesticide. Its sweetness was discovered by mistake. One researcher said to the other, "Did you test it?" It was heard as "Did you taste it?"

Maybe Braverman needs to update to recommending the Stevia/sugar mix as a low calorie subsitute. I am not sure I like the Truvia version of stevia.

Besides, our bodies and brains need a proper carb intake, just not junk food sugar.

I will never understand why people will eat/drink something to satisfy their sweet tooth that does not satisfy their sweet tooth. It is much easier to truly satisfy a sweet tooth with a small sweet that to eat/drink gobs with an artificial sweetener that leaves one unsatisfied.

I think I will just look The Edge over at the library. It sounds like I will struggle to read it anyway. My brain does not tolerate writings that are difficult to understand.

I am also turned off by Braverman's appearance as an author of too many specialized subjects. Just like Dr Oz. He may be a great cardiac surgeon, but he is a master of nothing else. Oz and Braverman seem to be after $$$ more than patient health.

I am in agreement with him about bio-identical hormone treatment. Our diets have messed up our hormone balances. I will be starting testosterone and DHEA when it arrives. I am low in both.

BHRT has improved my wife's life drastically. Others we know have also benefited. Big Pharma's shotgun HRT is to be questioned. Same as birth control pills.

I read a recent study that links birth control pills to a change in how women view men. BCP's over-rides the need and desire of women to find a masculine man leading to women who are prone to choose and prefer feminized men. It is a very preliminary study. It will be interesting to see more research in this area.

I will look into B5P. It sounds interesting. I currently take 300 mg of B-6 daily. If I miss my B-6 for a few days, my wife can tell, same as B-12.

The comments Braverman makes in the book are strange.

I am skipping to the end...since each chapter rather repeats itself. He made a statement:
"acetylcholine keeps your muscles from drying out"...pg 171
Now what does THAT mean?
Also there is NO bibliography! The book makes sweeping generalizations with no backup studies. Some seem to make sense sometimes, but most are just that, sweeping statements.

I am going to research him some.
I find Dr. Amen MD much more grounded.

You will find this interesting:
http://www.aapsonline.org/newsletters/aug97.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/23/ny...einstated.html

The lack of a bibliography in The Edge Effect is now more understandable to me.
I guess there are no studies to bolster his claims.

The recommendation to use Aspartame for him, appears on ALL his neurotransmitter subchapters. He explains at first in the dopamine chapter that the phenylalanine in aspartame is what he is after. But you know....phenylalanine is common in all proteins. We get plenty by eating protein.

What IS in aspartame that is problematic....is ASPARTIC acid which is a known stimulant of the NMDA receptors for PAIN.
It is related to glutamate which is also a stimulant to these pain receptors and problematic in the brain. Why does Dr. Braverman recommend aspartame to all patients? This is a question I have...and basically I think the book was not proofread properly, and it is repeated by accident.

I DO NOT like his sweeping generalizations ...he seems to have "borrowed" snipets of other peoples' research and used them out of context or whatever, for his own purposes. It is sort of like Martha Stewart's approach (some people believe she has stolen recipes and craft ideas for YEARS and received much criticism for that, although after her prison experience it seems less to me).

I'll find some other "precious" quotes from the book before I take it back to the library. I think those will illustrate my opinion, fairly well.

He sounds like a formulaic author. They are common in self help books. The author finds an issue people are interested in, does a "little" research, then uses a template to write chapter after chapter of marginally informative text.

They are usually just interested in selling books for a publisher and their own wallet.

Consuming aspartame for the phenylalanine is like drinking soda for the phosphorus.

The aspartic acid is a big concern with aspartame. I understand that when aspartame is heated, it breaks down into methanol, then formaldehyde. Just what we need, pickled and preserved brains.

I think I will use my time more wisely.

I just read a short bit near the end of the book about acetylcholine.

He calls this a moisturizer! Keeps the cells lubricated and keeps the bones from drying out!

(I think he means choline).

It is the weirdest thing I have EVER read... and he is supposed to be a "doctor"... well, he did lose his license and have to fight to get it back.

I found a critique about his clinic... he charges alot of money for tests and some electropicture of the brain (over $1000)

He sells some electrical machine called the CES
http://www.orthomolecular.org/librar...n01-p049.shtml

I can't find much to support his machine, either. :Dunno:

Braverman's electro-picture of the brain is just a QEEG with more leads than commonly used. I guess he tries to relabel it to differentiate it from QEEG and brain mapping.

His license suspension sounds like a witch hunt for being a pro-active alternative medicine proponent. The only charge that held up was shoddy record keeping and one instance of practicing medicine while his license was temporarily suspended.

The shoddy record keeping referenced procedures or treatments he prescribed or performed without adequate records to show cause.

Either way, he appears to push the edges of the envelope. He does promote the CES device, an FDA approved TENS for the brain.

I am usually one to do the research on people such as Braverman. I was remiss on this one.

I will consider his ideas carefully. Some may be supported by others' research and published reports. I will look for such evidence before accepting his ideas any further.

Thanks for your work.

Hi Everyone,

I just had my B12 retested and the level was 919 pg/mL. Does anyone know what a good level is and if I should address getting off the B12 or keeping it up?

Thanks,

It is a good level. Keep it up.

It is not really high, compared to what others I've seen on
supplements, and that implies you were low to begin with.

I agree with mrsD. My test came back at 1067, with 176 to 840 being the normal range. My physician was delighted with 1067.

So keep up what you are doing with B-12.

What was your folate? About 20 would be optimum.

My questions is, Were you low or do people like you and me use up our B-12 at a faster rate than most?

The answer doesn't change the ongoing treatment, just a different way of looking at the issues.

I don't know what my level was to begin with, but my MD said it was low and put me on the 1 mg of B12. I will ck what my folate level is.

Thanks everyone!

Wow, 1 mg of B-12 should be a good kick to your B-12 level. I only take 380 mcg (micrograms) or 0.38 mg and my B-12 is at 1067.

Maybe yours was super low.

Are you taking B-6 also?

200 to 400 mg per day should be a good and safe start.

I found this B12 info very interesting....you may too

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...23&newsLang=en

I have not seen this new form yet.... it is now 2012

If someone here has seen it, please post here.