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Got PN from sacral adjustment 12 years ago...
I am 63 and was diagnosed with Peripheral Neuropathy caused by a sacral adjustment 12 years ago and the pain is getting a lot worse lately in spite of the various adjustments I have made to my sacrum and pelvis. I no longer have any ankle or knee reflexes and my toe nails have become distorted, thicker and brittle..
Until I came to this Forum, I didn't realize that so many people had similar problems and seemed to be getting relief from medicines... I always thought the remedy was to bring back my sacrum to its original position, but after having had a recent meeting with a neurosurgeon, I have finally come to realize otherwise... I have no diabetes and a stand up MRI shows no visible problem at the nerves roots at L3, L4, L5, S1, but there is some mild stenosis. However, about a year before the fateful sacral adjustment, a chiropractor had hit the centre ridge of L5 counterclockwise with a couple clicks of his 'activator', which caused the left big toe and the toe next to it to become numb in the following 2 days... The nerve irritation or damage appears to be somewhere between L3 and my feet, probably in the sacrum/pelvis area.... It all started about 12 years ago in Paris when I had some serious back pain: that was resolved by a therapist who had only 1 year of osteopathic study - as it turned out later - by doing a cranio-sacral adjustment, which consisted of pushing in the top of the sacrum to increase the curvature of the lumbar area... It worked great for back pain, but 4 days later, when already in Spain by then, the sole of my feet started to burn intensely and it felt like I had a thin layer of chewing gum under the ball of my feet when walking. The muscles along the spine and lumbar area were under constant tension, sexual functions and circulation to the feet were seriously impaired and I could not find anyone to remedy the problems... A recent X-Ray done to try again some chiropractic solutions shows a sacrum/pelvis misalignment in 2 dimensions: the left pelvis is rotated anticlockwise in relation to the sacrum and is 1/2" higher, resulting in a shorter left leg. I surmise that this was the result of a car accident that happened in my early 20's, when the leading left edge of the iliac was fractured and pushed backwards. I probably lived like that without noticing until the sacral adjustment, which I assume triggered the current Peripheral Neuropathy... Another therapist in Spain, using a belt around my thigh and pulling it outward managed to improve the blood flow to my feet, which had become very cold. Later on when on my own, I devised an orthopedic gadget that reproduced this effect and gave me some measure of control over the circulation to my feet... I placed a rounded spacer between my thigh right against the crotch and used an extended foam padded clamp to bring my knees together, thereby opening up the SI joint and helping greatly with the blood flow to the feet. However, one should keep very still while doing that, as sacral adjustments can easily be lost in the process... Through various stretches I managed to control the muscle tightness along the spine and in the lumbar area and substantially improve sexual functions. However, lately, the pelvis and sacrum adjustments that were keeping me going reasonably well - since I sit at my computer all day long and avoid walking or standing for more than 5 minutes to avoid recurrent pain - are having less effect... Here are some examples of the effects of such manipulations, which are done by lowering a certain part of my body on a rubber cube and let gravity do the work: pressure on the upper part of the sacrum will cure back pain, if the sacrum came out of alignment; pressure on the upper left pelvis will help with the feet burning but tends to make the ball of the feet number... The numbness originally started at the big toe of the left foot, then most of the upper part of the feet became numb, including a band just above the ankle, while the ball of the foot became hyper-sensitive. The right foot followed the same pattern shortly after. Until recently, when I rubbed my big toe against the one next to it, I could feel it, but not any more. Also, I could alleviate the symptoms for a short while by pulling my feet behind my chair, as far back as possible for about 45 minutes, but that trick no longer works, either... The chiropractic attempts at straightening the pelvis in relation to the sacrum have only resulted in temporary (1 day) relief, at the expense of the ball of the foot now becoming also numb. Where the pain only bothered me when walking or standing, I now experience it also at night and have trouble sleeping... Stretches did help a lot at he beginning: alternating resisted knee to the chest relieves back tension and, lying down with one knee up, placing the opposite foot on the knee and pushing the leg down in a resisted pumping action to stretch the ligaments, does help with the feet burning... I have also tried deep body massage with a "Thumper" to release the muscles around the back, spine, buttocks, thighs and legs, in case a nerve is entrapped to some good effects, which unfortunately don't last very long The neurosurgeon I just visited suggested pain killers, such as Lyrica, but this would be a last ditch solution, as I know only too well that the side effects of most medicine are usually worse than the problem they're supposed to cure. I also need to keep in touch with the pain to see if things are getting worse... I am finally convinced that the long sought perfect sacrum adjustment won't solve the problem and even if it were attained, it's unlikely it would last. I have been looking up the Iherb Website for products that users recommend and found that Benfotiamine appears to be very helpful... I would appreciate any advice from veterans of Peripheral Neuropathic pain who have obtained good results, as the quality of my life has began to stink to high hell, lately.. |
Welcome to NeuroTalk Seagem! :) This is a great community with lots of nice folks and good information. I hope you'll find the info you need and make some new friends in the process. :hug:
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Research on Iherb shows that some products - besides the 3000 mcg B-12, B-6 and Ginkgo Biloba I'm already taking - are producing decent results, according to the users: - Benfotiamine 250 mg - Alpha Lipoic Acid 300 mg - Acetyl-L-Carnitine (from Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl) 650 mg I'm also looking into Cq10, Super Omega 3-6-9 and STIM (electric stimulation) therapy... Any other suggestions?... |
I'd suggest r-lipoic 100mg instead of alpha lipoic. It is more potent.
You might want to do some electrostim. I found IFc useful for pain. You can buy a home unit online for about $150. Also some of us use magnets. If you search the word "magnets" on this forum we have many posts about them. I just had a root canal, and had alot of face pain afterwords, and used my strong magnet on it for 20 min a night, and it was immediately helpful without strong pain meds. (I only used one Aleve liquigel for it daily OTC). This recent post has some magnet info: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...hlight=magnets Also you may try Lidoderm patches over the sacral area. They may work too. I find that some nerve pain, may be just an old injury refiring. By blocking that nerve for a few days...with Lidoderm or magnets you may turn that over firing nerve off. |
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I have tons of of magnets - I was trying to make a self running magnet motor a while back - and even have a large gold plated one, 2" x 1/4" with the pole marked: which side do you use towards the pain?... Do you have a link on the best STIM machine to save some time and how/where to place the pads?... I'm also going to try a water with a similar composition, PH = 9.5, to that of Lourdes, France, as it's very beneficial to health in general: google 'kykwaterionizers-direct' and see the testimonials at the end of the page... Btw, I wrote a very detailed account of my symptoms and attempt at curing them because I copied it to the Centre for Restauration of the Nervous System in Cuba, the CIREN, to see if they can help. Of course, if it works, US citizens will have to wait for a change in the law, which is likely to come soon... Sorry but I'm not allowed to post links yet, unfortunately... |
Is the magnet a neodymium one? Mine are ...they are very strong! There are safety tips on that link I put up here, about,
not using if you have an implanted devices, etc. The south pole is typically put against the body. If your mag is 10,000 or more gauss, you don't have to leave it on for long. I do spot treatments while reading in bed. My very elderly cat also asks for a short treatment for her neck and back. She rolls over and falls into a deep sleep..she limps and has arthritis. I put surgical tape on the side that goes against the skin. Some people get "magnet burns" or react to the metal alloy with rashes. The south pole typically calms pain, the North will stimulate pain. If you make a mistake, you'll feel it within 5 minutes. (I do). You should see improvements in comfort within a week, and perhaps a month for major improvements. I'd do the magnet first, because it is so inexpensive, before springing for a IFc unit. I got mine from Healiohealth.com http://www.healiohealth.com/tek9.asp...cific=jnnrmmm8 I'll have to search the placement file I saved... that will take some time. I had a nerve damaged from surgery in my right thigh. It is called Meralgia Paresthetica. I had it for years and it was very painful. 2 weeks of daily Lidoderm patches placed in the correct spot, totally turned that nerve off. Now I only have echos of that problem if I overextend the leg. It was amazing how it changed the pain. That is why I say to some here that you might be able to "turn off" a nerve that is just firing by habit. |
I've been reading this thread with much interest.
For about five weeks now, I have had a weird right side pudendal symptom of nerve vibration upon disturbance of the bladder/gential area, such as jostling or jiggling. It does seem to be a bit worse when my head is forward in the L'hermitte's sign position, or when I bend at the waist. It is not painful, but is tingling/vibrational, like someone is constantly plucking a guitar string.
Oddly enough, though the sensation starts above the root of my penis, in the bladder area, and then proceeds down the right side of it, along the dorsal nerve distribution, this does not seem similar to other pudendal nerve problems I've researched. For one thing, it is not worsened by sitting--in fact, sitting and keeping my lower body area unmoving/rigid will eventually cause it to fade after some minutes. Walking sets it off constantly, but I don't feel it much as I take steps, but I feel it in full when I stop. This heightens my perception that this is somewhat positional. Interestingly, I first noticed this after a rather vigorous "session" with my wife, which immediately led me to wonder if I had injured the penile nerve. I know that the pudnedal nerve has branches to the penis (or clitoris in women), to the **** spinchter, and to the bladder. I had a full urological work-up, including rectal exam and PSA--all normal (in fact, my PSA is below 1). It was my urologist's impression, given my tendency to have hypersensitive nerves due to my acute-onset body wide burning neuropathy history (which leaves me very prone to any sort of compressive effects), and given that I often have some sciatic symptoms, that this may be due to problems in the sacral spine. Indeed, I do tend to have on-agian, off-again achiness by the left sacroiliac joint. I have a two cm leg length discrepancy (left shorter than right) which has resulted in some gait oddness and left leg "instability" but no muscle weakness, and I have just had completely normal MRI of the lumbar spine and completely normal nerve conduction studies of both legs. My speculation--there's some sort of twist or hypermobility in the pelvic or sacroiliac spine area, so that depending on positioning, some of the nerves going through there are getting pressed. The intergrated orthopedic/physiatric practice I consulted did not seem interested in looking at the sacral area, though. I know the pudendal nerve comes from combinations of the S2/S3/S4 roots, and that sacral pathways also contribute to the sciatic nerve, but they seem to follow the old idea that 95% of sciatic symptoms come from radiculopathy of the L5/S1 nerve roots, which of course did not show on the normal lumbar MRI. I'd love to know if anyone has had similar problems in that area and what kind of therapy they may have found helpful--I do have a prescription for physical therapy, but I'd love to be able to find a practice that would listen and be a little outside the box in terms of where they'd manipulate. I susepct the best place to start would be a place that does a lot of hands on neural work and myofascial work, and I'm open to advice. The pudnedal symptoms are not painful (yet), but they are extremely annoying, often buzzing for a half-hour at a time before I can quiet them down again, and they are keeping me away from nighttime activities (if you catch my drift). |
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What's the link to the magnets? |
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I realize now that I forgot to include a couple of relevant facts to give a complete picture in my first post: is it possible to edit a post, as I don't see any key for doing that?... |
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posts are only able to be edited within 24 hours of making them you can either just add a reply with the additional info or PM one of the mods of this forum or me with the text you would like edited in and we can do that for you :) |
Glenn there is a physiatrist who has a physical medicine and rehabilitation practice who gave a talk i was at and talked about some treatments that were outside the everyday medical box. He has an office in east rockaway, nassau and belle harbor, rockaway queens. MIght be worth a shot to talk to him. His name was Robert Lanter.
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I am now looking for a wide belt lined with magnets that cover the entire lumbar area to wear while seating at my computer: any suggestions?... The Lidoderm looks very effective, acording to the testimonials I have read and I'm definitely trying it and also buying Lidocaine gel for my feet... Thanks a lot for all these great suggestions: I wish I'd come here a lot sooner... |
I have found that applying Lidocaine to the END points, where you feel the pain...like using a gel....is not effective.
It is more effective to interrupt the nerve as it goes to the spinal cord. I put the patches on the tops of my feet. That is where all the little nerves all over join and go up the ankle. I used IFc for my tendon injury for my left leg. I have not used it on the PN in the feet. The magnet belt will only be effective if the magnets in it are strong. Some belts have very weak ones. I am looking for the link showing electrode placement. It is buried somewhere here. I'd start with the easy things first and leave electrostim for later. There is : TENS Electrostim IFc they are all subtly different. My PTs recommended IFc saying it has more healing effects. The TENs is mostly for blocking pain. |
Inferential placement is the first category in this long PDF.
http://www.wecontrolpain.com/downloa...nt%20guide.pdf oh drat... this link doesn't work this way... PDFs really confuse me this is where I found it on Google: Quote:
placement electrodes IFc illustration |
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Also, the South pole or Negative pole must be used towards the body for best effect, apparently... |
Oh, that is pricey... 2 quarter size magnets on each side should do it.
But you do what you want. I find I don't have to "wear" mine anymore, since I bought the big ones. I just put them over the area I want, for 1/2 to 1 hr while I read in bed. |
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Also sent a big order to iHerb for supplements that help with PN and will buy the electrical device you recommended. I'm currently getting some relief from a pelvic adjustment I did a couple days ago, which is still holding... Now that I have a better understanding of PN, thanks to this Website, I plan to work hard on all fronts to get rid of most of the pain... |
That's fine. As long as your magnets in that belt are the strong ones. Some of those support belts have the weaker 500-600 gauss type in them.
I found the belt, and it looks powerful! But I also see a belt for $80 which is much weaker...1000gauss/mag. (I would skip this one) You may find you don't need it all day long. I'd start with wearing it an hour a day, and see what happens. If nothing, then increase, every 5 days or so. It takes a day or two to see improvements with magnets. Make sure you understand the SAFETY needed for using the magnets. You cannot use them if you have an implanted medical device. Don't sit at your computer or laptob with them on. Airport security probably won't like them either! I tend to try and help people with the least invasive, least expensive things first. That is just my bias. Certainly if you want the belt, (and it may turn out to be a very good investment) and it is not a burden for you financially, that's all well and good. I've used magnets for over 10 yrs. It started with my right knee, and from there I've expanded my use. I even used a tiny one gold one (5000gauss) on my toe when I broke it (a boulder rolled onto it and broke it in 2 places doing landscaping work in the garden). The toe bruised pretty badly, but did not swell up and I could go to work with it, with the magnet. My podiatrist was surprised to see it when I went in for the x-rays. (he uses and recommends magnets too! LOL) I have another thing up my sleeve for you to try, after you do the belt and IFc. If there is residual pain, after much improvement, I'll share it with you. I personally think the IFc is the strongest intervention for back pain, then the magnets, then the supplement I am using now which improves blood circulation. If you want that info now, PM me. It is too soon to put it up here IMO. Here is a hint for the IFc.... at my PT, they put a towel over my leg and then a coldpack, and this minimized the zapping sensations the electrodes cause. So if you cannot stand the feeling...try that cold pack. Each session was about 20 minutes long. |
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The reason I bought the belt is that I need wide coverage: from L3 down to most of the sacrum and then, left and right to the SI joints that are also giving me problems... I'll soon know if it works at all and, if it doesn't, I'll use the magnets to make a motor... Please, PM me this 'other thing you have up your sleeve', as it might well work, as well... |
Yes, I will PM you. This weekend is mixed for me, as my son is moving into his first home. He has a truck for today, but not on Sunday. We were planning on going over there ( it is 1.5 hrs travel from us) today, but he seems to want us Sunday.
We haven't firmed this up yet..the timing. But I will get the PM out to you by sometime soon. Sometimes I get up in the night, etc ;) It will be long..taking effort to compose. edit...I just talked to my son, and he said our help would be better used on Sunday. The rental messed up his truck, and he is getting a smaller one (with no mileage as a gift), so he will be traveling back and forth all day with large stuff. We'll be taking our two vans to his place Sunday, and I will pack up his dishes etc. So I will PM you today sometime. This will be in the PM function, not the profile visitor messages. To access that you click on Private Messages under your name in the upper right of any page here. |
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Experiment to beat PN symptoms: Alkaline water at 9.5 PH and -280 ORP... In a previous thread titled "Got PN from sacral adjustment 12 years ago..." I described the symptoms and the strategy I was going to employ to try and remedy them. This includes a slew of supplements, strong magnetic belt covering the entire lumbar/sacrum area, IFc and Alkaline water... So after some extensive research, I bought one of the best models made by the Korean firm KYK with 7 titanium plates coated with platinum, guaranteed for 5 years: the retail price was US$1695.00 including a set of spare filters and if I buy 2 more, I'll get wholesale price on the 3 units at just under $1000.00 a piece... The machine is very well made, includes inline filter and pressure reducer with snap-in connections: installation was a breeze and yesterday I drunk my first glass of water at 9.5 PH and -280 ORP... There is a large body of evidence, mainly testimonials, showing that Alkaline water cures many ailments, as it rebalances our systems, which usually suffers from too much acidity. Lourdes in France has a source honored by the Catholics, whose water is at 9.5 PH and has been credited with curing many thousands of pilgrims... It may be wishful thinking, but it seems to me that my feet felt much more alive when I woke up this morning and I also felt more relaxed: too soon to tell, of course, but I will monitor my blood pressure and pulse daily, as this water is supposed to lower both and help with weight loss, as well... I'll keep you all posted of any progress or set back as they unfold... |
I am somewhat skeptical about "alkaline water".
The stomach is meant to be very acidic for reasons. This acid state facilitates the absorption of certain minerals and vitamins in our food.... folic acid, B12, calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc. About 30% of elderly people aready have low acid in their stomachs. And those taking acid reducing drugs. Proteins cannot be digested properly in an alkaline environment. Drinking alkaline water would result in normal stomach acids being neurtralized. This happens also with the use of antacids by people with heartburn. When the pH of the stomach goes alkaline, a syndrome can result called "milk alkali syndrome" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk-alkali_syndrome This was more common before the fancy drugs we have now like Zantac and Prilosec which lower acid through other mechanisms. The acid present in the stomach is neutralized by the juices from the pancreas when leaving the stomach. I found this link about the chemistry involved with the discussion of "alkaline water".... http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html So until I see some real studies showing benefit, I will remain somewhat skeptical. I have seen some sites recommend not using alkaline water all the time. So that might be a good idea just in case there is some downside to the whole thing. |
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Actually, I am getting the first inklings of PN spreading to my hands and it's worrying me, as it seems to spread fast. Wondering whether exposure 14 hours a day to the radiations of a 21" old style CRT computer screen and drinking my fair share of wine and tea laced with rum has anything to do with it... I have identified several painful nodes (when pressing on them) that seem to correspond to the passage of nerves that appear to be inflamed and may contribute to the PN symptoms: I am applying large magnets to them... - Leg: when sitting, on the inner side opposite the knee, slightly below the crease. When massaging this area I feel the difference in my feet... - Arm: slightly above the crease opposite the elbow on the inner side. I also feel the effect in my hands when massaging this node which is only painful when pressing on it... |
Mrs. D, have you ever heard of Topiramate and Lamotrigine to help nerves regrowth?...
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No I haven't. I don't think there are any DRUGS that enhance nerve regrowth, now. There are neuro growth factors being investigated, which are peptides and would need injection.
They are not available as yet. Anticonvulsant drugs orally are used to block pain impulses however. The anticonvulsants typically are sodium channel blockers. If you find the studies about nerve regrowth, many here would love to seem them! A new study using amitriptyline was published recently. This drug is an old antidepressant, and has been used for chronic pain and PN for decades. |
What about intravenous immune globulin (IVIG)?
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Ivig--
--is not a nerve growth factor per se, though if it is effective in slowing down autoimmune attack on nerve components, it might allow nerves to begin to regenerate absent constant attack. (It works, presumably, by slowing down rogue antibodies that the body is using to attack self by diluting their concentration and providing others to compete with them. It is not likley to be much good if one's condition does not have an immune component.)
As to the other aspect of the discussion, I seem to remember some flurry of articles recently about one or more of the anti-depressants (not the anti-convulsants, I believe) possibly being preliminarily shown to have some nerve regenerative properties; I have to go research that a little further for specifics. (I do remember the whole thing being very preliminary and in need of much further testing, though.) |
It was amitriptyline, Glenn. This is the only TCA from the old first generation antidepressants that showed this action.
There is a thread here: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...=amitriptyline |
IVIG poses a risk and should be reserved for PNs that are autoimmune, fast spreading, etc.
GBS, and those caused by Campylobacter infections (food poisoning) would be examples. Lupus, and other autoimmune more slowly progressing also respond. Progressing PNs with motor loss, is another candidate. But keep in mind that IVIG is processed from up to a 1000 donors, and even though it is screened and purified, it carries the risk of prion disease and other viral contaminations. There was a huge globulin issue a few years ago, when a donor in Utah was diagnosed with nVariant Creutsfeld Jacob disease (similar to mad cow). All gamma globulins for injection (many nurses use this when they get a needle stick) and the IVIGs went off the market for a while. Here is another article about another type of contamination. http://www.weightfixerohio.com/Nanob...tamination.htm So IVIG products should be used only in cases where they MUST be. They are invasive and carry some risks, even though as much care as possible is given to their manufacture today. IMO there are not to be taken lightly. |
Mrs. D, I wondered if you could comment on issues I raised earlier:
Actually, I am getting the first inklings of PN spreading to my hands and it's worrying me, as it seems to spread fast. Wondering whether exposure 14 hours a day to the radiations of a 21" old style CRT computer screen and drinking my fair share of wine and tea laced with rum has anything to do with it... I have identified several painful nodes (when pressing on them) that seem to correspond to the passage of nerves that appear to be inflamed and may contribute to the PN symptoms: I am applying large magnets to them... - Leg: when sitting, on the inner side opposite the knee, slightly below the crease. When massaging this area I feel the difference in my feet... - Arm: slightly above the crease opposite the elbow on the inner side. I also feel the effect in my hands when massaging this node which is only painful when pressing on it... Btw, magnets seem to have an effect on the pain while in use: the Magnetic Black Belt people sent me magnetic insoles as a gift and even though the field is quite weak, it makes a good bit of difference... I read a study where magnetic socks were used: do you know where I can get these?... |
Everyone has those "nodes" you describe. These are called pressure points, and I would not be alarmed by them.
You even have one really sensitive one under the nose just where your upper lip connects. This is a huge accupressure point. This link shows the locations of some of these points for martial arts to incapacitate an opponent: http://www.pressurepointkarate.com/p...int-charts.htm It used to be thought that some pressure points and tenderness corresponded to the condition called Fibromyalgia. But new medical thought is that everyone has these tender spots, and they do not indicate disease. I am glad you are seeing response with the magnets. I never had any effect from the shoe inserts, either. As you keep using the belt, you will notice an improvement. It takes a short while to get going. I've been using my magnets on my root canal cheek...I've had a tough time with that lately. |
I have always wondered about IVIG and the dangers involved. Sure it is screened for what is known or screenable, but who knows what is no yet known. I have always thought that something like IVIG should only be used if you were in a very bad way or getting there. It seems to me for a while it was being used almost as a diagnostic tool, as is done with epidurals. I personally feel that anything invasive should only be done after you have gotten a few opinions, done some research and thought hard about it.
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If I can't find ready made magnetic socks, I might make them from scratch using small magnets with a hole in the middle sewn on the outside of heavy woolen socks... Do you have to avoid alcohol completely with PN or is it still OK to have a couple glasses of wine with meals?... |
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In all instances, alcohol is medically bad for PN. :mad: It makes it gradually worse, even if you don't have adverse PN affects while drinking. :confused: Strips the myelin sheath.:eek: As for me, I can feel it in my feet, about 1/2 hr- to 1 hr, after just one drink.:((squeezing, aching, burning, throbbing) Two is my limit, when socializing with friends or after a hard day at work.:wink: But I expect to pay the price.:cool::( |
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The only foot intervention that has worked for me is putting one magnet at the tarsal ligament, to help release any compression there. I can get a sharp pain in my left ankle, at that location that is different from burning. One of my strong magnets there helps. I had an injection at that location once--a steroid one, and I had surgery when I was 12 on my instep for a tumor (a hemangioma), and the surgeon told me the tendons will never be quite the same. That ankle is mostly okay, but does flare now and then for some reason. That foot also has a mild swelling below the ankle...because of the surgical damage. Looking at the ankle, you'd never know, but certain shoes hit me there --slip on clog types-- and really hurt. I bought a wonderful set of clogs (indoor outdoor slippers) by Woolrich, even a size larger, that hit me there. I tried to stretch them, no go. So I got out my scissors and cut the midseam, about 1/4 of an inch and now I can wear them. Since most of your pain is suspected to come from the sacral area, I'd think that is where your attention should be, at least for now. Buying separate neodymium magnets, the 1/2 in diameter is very inexpensive. They even have them on Ebay.;) |
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However, my forearms, wrist and palms now seem to be affected and my right palms is to red and inflamed that I can barely rest it on a pad to operate my mouse: I'm now looking for another solution where my sensitive wrist and palm won't touch anything and that's not that easy... |
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