Benzo Taper.... or what? ARGGHHH!!!
 

Hi guys.

Start of this month (20 days ago) i started tapering my benzo. it is pretty potent but subbing with diazepam (Valium) first is problematic since the equivalence is not well-established, and diazepam's characteristics are also a little different. However, this benzo is about as long acting as diazepam, and it is available in drops, so one can take/reduce by miniscule doses, for a safely proportioned taper.

i made a taper plan following Ashton Manual guidelines (5-10% every 1-2 weeks varying with individual needs / reactions / stress / etc). i do adjust it as needed. I have also decreased caffeine. I have not had any real problems except for some light sleep and a little agitation which passed however. Other than that, i have had a little "postive" activation in the sense i get more stuff done!

I had the 4th dose decrease (there are countless more) a couple days ago.

Today, i woke up where everything bothered the living shtt out of me. my mom singing. the sound of a cell phone being turned on. the tinkling/banging of a metal spoon on a glass jar (that would bother me if i was about to have a migraine, only it wasn't bothering my ears, but my NERVES). AARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHH.

BUT also......... i am trying to get some docs together that have to observe a bunch of tech specs. i have been busy hunting on the internet all day for a shop that can scan the stuff i need... where they or i have adequate control of the scanning parameters. i know of one but i was hoping for something closer. GRRR. Yesterday i was busy all day mucking with stuff to see if i had already some suitable stuff on hand. i don't. i even ventured down into the basement (big big big deal for me!!! like i'm alive! wow!) and dug through boxes looking for some software i couldn't find :mad: GRRR. i think that contributed to my GRRR. found some other stuff though. :o

STILL, it is WEIRD. the past 2 nights i've slept like a log, 7-8 hours straight... clean through parents taking up the blinds this morning - which is LOUD! an hour later i wake up a jangled up everything's-a-needle-in-the-brain claw and fangs queen? hello????

i was not "agitated" per se, today, btw and hadn't even had coffee yet when the cell phone bugged me!!!! :(:rolleyes:

ok, anyone think the benzo level has gone way outta whack somehow???

or do you think it is stress from the stuff i'd doing against a deadline too, more than the benzo?

or both?

or other?

thoughts?

:eek::confused::Sigh::confused::eek:

~ waves ~

could be both:confused:
although you are tapering really slowly so that is good.
I think it was the increased stress.
You aee a sensitive woman and maybe your senses are more accute?
anyway to make a place for yourself in the basement?????
privacy!:eek:
bizi

Be careful
 

Dear Waves,
One guess is that you woke up feeling this way, so it was not the activity of the day, although the activities you describe sound like a problem for certain days.
If this is close to Valium's half life, then you might have been near the four day mark of the half life (and these half lives vary considerable from person to person (if I remember right about how this works).


Also, you say you are reducing by 5%-10%. Maybe some of the cuts / tapers are going to need 5% rather than 10%.
And maybe sometimes the cuts need to be further apart than the 1-2 weeks suggested. If this cut was hard, then maybe go 3 weeks until the next one.

Some thoughts:
Any chance that you would benefit from dosing twice a day instead of once a day? Perhaps you already do that.

The internet instructions (consensus?) are to stay at a decrease once you have made the decrease. But go by what your body mind is telling you. You can go back up to the last dose and sit there awhile if you need to.


There are some meds that might be able to help you according to this abstract:
http://journals.lww.com/psychopharma...tinuing.3.aspx

It's hard to assess against the day you had. So wait one or two more days to decide if it was the cut that caused the day.

Here's what my pdoc did when I messed up a Xanax taper (without checking with him first):
He put me on higher my original starting dose for four days.
. . . . not saying you will need to do that. . . . just showing you how my pdoc handled it.


You'll have to see how you feel tomorrow to know what happened today. :Heart:

M.

hmmm... basement.
 

Thanks Beth, :)

i very much value your input.

hee hee... basement for privacy... i have thought of that more than you would believe. what i meant by basement though, is the garage. and what is in the garage, is my boxed up stuff, and a lot of dust! lol. :D:rolleyes: NONETHELESS! i HAVE thought of it, which is pretty wild! (hey, there is a light in there :p ... no heat tho! :eek:)

definitely today senses more acute... or less of a senses-to-brain filter in place. it did get better as the day went along though. this morning i was asked to do dishes and had planned to go out and wanted to do neither. i forced myself to do the dishes and focused really hard on the water and suds on my hands and stuff... i think that is called increasing "mindfulness." then i plowed on with the stuff from yesterday, which got me more frustrated, but also distracted from the "general ARGGGHH" feeling i had waking up. i was nicer to my parents. i felt good about doing stuff. i didn't get the results i wanted but even "eliminating options" means at least the path of what to do next is clearer. i feel better/calmer now. hopefully the stress was a major contributor - yesterday i got really frustrated with not finding the software i needed and then not being able to install some other stuff... the up side is i'm actually DOING STUFF which is flippin' amazing!

we'll see what tomorrow brings... i have to get out and go to a little shop in town to see if they have a scanner. they also sell cigarettes so they might be open sunday. when my wallet got stolen, i lost their business card, so i couldn't call today to find out. :(

:hug:

~ waves ~

Ha Waves
 

It's hard to tell. I've been through things like that,and sometimes it's impossible to time,or know what to do.

I decided to slowly withdraw from Xanax years ago,and I did it very,very slowly over a long period of time,in which I felt comfortable to do it. After about four months I was down to a tiny piece.

My anxiety kicked back in slowly,and then hit me real hard. I was out of town,and when I got home,I felt like I was having a heart attack. My friends drove me to my parents house. My parents called my Pdoc,and he put me on a strong dose of Xanax,and the pain went away,and I felt better. Unfortunately I had panic attacks for several months. My parents let me stay there for six months. It was a awful experience. Everyone around me didn't know what to do,or say.

I had obsessions also that where increasing.

I made a mistake in trying to get off of my medication. I was filled with emotion about it. Please be careful. I don't want you to go through what I went through. BF:hug::hug::hug:

Thanks guys... need to sleep... will post back tomorrow
 

Dear Mari & Steve,

thank you both for your posts... much food for thought. i was in the middle of replying to you Mari but got a chance to chat with someone live... so did that. and now it's 4am... past my imaginary bedtime... lol.

anyway, i will answer you both tomorrow!

:hug::hug::hug:

~ waves ~ whose eyelids are drooping :o

Waves,
Enjoy your sleep!
We'll see you later.
M.

back again...
 

Dear Mari,

First, thank you for all your thoughts and suggestions and persepectives! Lots to chew on... wow.

right. on the other hand, the activity of the previous day was very very frustrating. but it does seem "suspect" waking up that way...

when i used to use the benzo prn but non-daily, i would start to notice anxiety after about 2-3 days. with a smaller cut i would expect more time to pass. this benzo has a typical half-life of about 96-120 hours, but i've seen higher and lower values cited too. the taper plan is in Excel. i am using a half-life of 110 which my pdoc agreed was a good working value... but i tried plugging in lower and higher values (ranging 80 to 130) it doesn't make too much difference to blood levels and drops, within my current dose range... only at much lower doses with a lower half-life.

No. taking any in the morning leaves me out of it. as it is, i need at least a little caffeine in the morning! :o also, fwiw, Ashton suggests shifting to 1ce daily dosing for long-acting meds during taper, if it is not already the case. the reason given is to reduce the pill-taking habit/psychological impact.

I said i was observing the guidelines... including the part about varying (can be more or less, faster or slower) according to individual reaction / situation" etc! LOL. the last cut was 5.77% - previous two were 7.69%, first - being the easiest - was a whopping 11%. throughout December i will only cut by 1 drop (< 2%) every 10 days due to the holidays (big stress, potential alcohol consumption here and there). the calculated daily drop in blood level is marginal throughout. And, if i feel too stressed out, i will just play sitting duck till after New Years. ;)

yes, could be. :) but i hope not! this cut and the one before only had a week each technically, but were kinda pre-emptive due to a missed dose... followed "recovery" dosing that kept me at steady state (dose was cut, but not blood level). i will definitely keep this dose until i feel "ok" to move on.

Not just internet. But, true... it's not like there's a law! ;):D:D

I am trying very hard to manage anxiety without additional meds of any kind... to use breathing, or distracting myself, or doing something physical, or focusing hard on sensations - to change mindset. I believe this will help decrease psychological addiction which my pdoc reminded me of, as well as the Ashton Manual, lol. However, if i am up a creek... heheh... I still have some Neurontin which relaxes me... i am taking as much Depakote as i can handle and do not want to add anything which can alter benzo metabolism. Neurontin does not get metabolized or interfere with my other meds.

yah, i think you're probably right. unfortunately the pressure will build up over the next 10 days. it will be hard to say. today was better but then again i just watched tv and movies and ate. nothing productive.

hmmm.... :Scratch-Head:

Anyway, I appreciate you sharing all this and will keep ALL of it in mind. what is even somewhat working now may not necessarily later, so it is good to have all your suggestions. :) :hug:

~ waves ~

((( Steve )))
 

Yah. even with all the calculations... there are too many variables like external stressors and even psychological dependence... how can i measure that! lol

wow. Xanax is really hard to taper directly because even halving or quartering a 0.25 might not be a small enough amount to cut by, especially towards the end of the taper... depends some on your original dose. But also it wears off fast, which is another problem altogether. Getting as far as you did was quite an accomplishment! :o :hug:

wow. i'm so sorry you went through this. it sounds like you had a real bad backlash... terrible. :(:(

I met a guy who was being detoxed from Xanax when i was in the clinic and he too was in pretty bad shape.

Do you know that Xanax is considered - both physically and psychologically - the most addictive benzo, par excellence? If for any reason you should need or desire to come off it, please ask your prescribing physician to work with you, and gradually switch you to Valium first. After you are stable on the Valium for a while, that can be tapered. It is easier to come off and it can be done more gradually.

Luckily what i am on is not quite as difficult as Xanax... even though it is pretty potent, it is also very very long acting (Xanax is very very short acting). Also, its availability in drops makes it so you can cut back by a tiny proportion at a time.

Thank you, Steve. That is very sweet of you. :hug::hug::hug: I do take your warning to heart even with this med. I promise to be careful! :o

~ waves ~

doing ok... sort of
 

doing much better today nerves-wise. i think what is also happening is, recently, my sleep wrapped around and i have been waking up about the same time as the parents, or after them. more often, i am awake long before they are, or i wake up after they have gone out.

the thing is, when i wake up i like to have peace and quiet for a while. that has always been the case - normal for me. like i can watch tv and stuff but i will have it on a really low volume - which i can hear well, provided no ambient noises interfere. or if i listen to music, it has to be pretty soft, gentle music, in the morning, and low volume. NO THRASH METAL!!! :p

the parents are like, from full off, to full on. so, if they are here and awake or waking, when i am waking up, no peace and quiet during the time i am still coming to grips with my senses.

anyway. problem today is can't get butt in gear to get the stuff i need done. and i'm worrying about it too. i keep trying to argue myself out the door, but it isn't working. this is part of my action block and i don't know what that is about. i know lately it has been less, but today is not one of those days. :(

i have decided to can my exploratory mission to the little shop here, and go straight to the one in the city as i have to go half way there anyway, just to get another thing done. the cost is not much more. i would still have time to get ready and catch the next bus... i think that would be in time to make it back for dinner and not get people mad. but i have sub-zero inclination.

i will shoot for tomorrow i guess. i can't remember if the shop in the city is open all day or if they close in the middle. here things close for like 2-3 hours. i think they close. maybe i can find their phone number and call to get their hours. that would at least be something....

:Sigh:

thank you all for listening.... :o

~ waves ~ who is stuffing her face

I hope you can find their phone number so that you can plan the outing better. I would hate for you to go to all of the trouble to get there and then they are closed.

The kitties are fighting at times youngest hattie is such a bully she bites hazel's( yearling) ears and hazel cries....cats will be cats, they play fight like this all day. chase each other around they really get along well until hattie gets too worked up and really goes after hazel and fur goes flying. Harriet (11 yera old) just sleeps most of the day ......just thought I would share this with you...hope you don't mind.:)
bizi

i found them on the internet and their hours were posted. :)
i went to save their number in my cellphone and a bulb lit up in my head... maybe i did when i went there last time... indeed i had.

silly wabbit! well, just as well i didn't remember having the number. finding the hours on internet was free - the call would not have been. :cool:

ok. now to do some dishes... sigh.

regarding MY TAPER

next dose cut is scheduled for Friday but i might put it off till after this deadline. or i could cut by only one drop which will drop my level only negligibly.

The flip side is i wonder (from having gained energy) if the benzo might have been robbing me of energy/motivation all this time. Maybe my "block" isn't just psychological ... maybe there is some chemical apathy in there! I could use more of that "good energy" right now!

anyway i see my pdoc on Thursday so i will tell him all of this stuff, see how i feel then, and see what he has to say about everything.

:o:confused::o

~ waves ~

Dear Beth
 

I sooooo do not mind. Quite the opposite! I miss having cats! I enjoy hearing your "cat-tales" :D:D:D

Thank you for sharing! :):heartthrob::)

i hope Hazel learns to "cope" soon though... for her sake.

I once lived with a kitten who, just introduced and maybe 8 weeks old? used to literally chase and assault a very tranquil but long and lanky 6mo old male... who was already established in the household. like, territory? what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine, and your tail is mine too... hey, it moves, *bat, bat, swat* ... :eek: The "poor" older kitten would just move his tail, change seat... in general try to stay out of the way... even go hide... with the odd vocalized complaint. the little one used to set up ambushes ... steal up on the couch and wait for him to walk underneath then, pounce down on him, fangs and claws flared!

She was agrrrrrrrrrrressive, boy! You know, she climbed up my legs *through* my jeans when i was getting their food once. can you say OUCHY OUCHY OUCHY OUCHY OWWWWWWWWWCHEEEEEEE!!!!! and, thank goodness i was wearing full length jeans, for i doubt bare legs would have made any difference to her!

yes cats will be cats. gotta love 'em. and you can find quite some characters... like people. :cool:

~ waves ~

Waves
 

I'd love to respond, but my head has gone for a six together with my body, so I can't concentrate enough to get into even the tiniest details.
I hope thiongs work out OK.
Love to everybody.

hey Isis
 

Dear Isis,

That's quite alright... well, not really, not for you! ... but you know what i mean... thank you for popping by all the same, themoreso really.

I appreciate the kind thoughts. :) And I do hope you feel better soon all around!

Now, you take it easy... take care of you.

:hug:

~ waves ~

Dear Waves,
You sound like you are managing -- that is good.
That would be something if the new "dose" is helping you with motivation levels.
I think it is normal to have concerns about
1) going through a change
2) starting out on a long process that you are documenting
3) having concerns about the unknown that you might face a long this journey


Be as gentle as possible with yourself.
M.

wellll..........
 

saw pdoc, told all and thensome.

he said it was indeed plausible for the benzo to have caused apathy. i asked if i seemed like i might be getting hypo. he said definitely a bit... and to hold the taper for now.

heck! why can't i just get un-apathetic, why must i go from bozo to hypo?

:Bang-Head: &)#*(*&$#(*)&^&@(&$ :hissyfit:

Well, at least it's the kind that feels good... except when something crosses/stresses me :eek: also some of the impulses are already overwhelming.

i WANT the energy, i craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave the energy and i crave bunches of other things........... :rolleyes::p:D things are not ruinous so far... but certainly time to carry minimum cash and leave all plastic home! (not too compatible with gift shopping! :rolleyes:)

--------------
i see pdoc again on Tuesday... he says wait till then (no extra meds until then). heck, i don't want to get worse, then again, i can't do a whole freakin gram of depakote (am already at 800 mg) it will make me fat probably and Zyprexa, hah!

good news: we have Geodon now!
bad news: it is not prescribable except for ACUTE MANIA or SCHIZOPHRENIA.

geez, thanks :mad: the rest of us have to get diabetes or TD i suppose. :rolleyes:

~ waves ~

I use to be energetic,but being on these three medicines makes me tired,and I lack the get up,and go also.

Being on the meds helps me emotionally though. Not fully. It's like taking a over the counter cold medication for a cold. BF:hug::hug::hug:

Dear Waves,
That is good about less apathy and perhaps more energy.
And that is good that the pdoc is able to watch for signs of mania for you.

It's hard to write about benzos --very complicated -- perhaps many of us (all?) have / had issues. So I don't know what to say. :confused:

Mostly I'm saying that you are following a good path and doing well.
Keep monitoring yourself with help from the pdoc and keep money and assess to it at home.

M.

Dear Steve,
Tell the pdoc to give you stronger stuff.
Tell him / her you don't need the equivalent of over the counter cold medicine.
Tell her what you need.
M.

Benzo taper
 

Dear Waves,

How is it going? :)
Do you feel all right?

M.

please check in waves....
how is it going? we miss you.
bizi

blech
 

dear Mari & Bizi,

thanks for the notes.

i've been flippy from a med miss and triggers. mood ok now ... migraine is an energy killer.

w.

Oh, Wow, Waves, :hug: :hug: :hug:
That's a lot.
I hope you get through your day with some ease.
M.