My husband had an MRI today.
 

I hope someone can look at these images of my husband's spine. They were taken today.

My husband has Idiopathic Peripheral Neuropathy. The doctors HAVE NEVER found out WHY!!! He has been to countless back guys, and neuros's but all the back specialists have always said "We can't find any relation of the neuropathy to the back.

Now his neuro has said "it's your back, go for another MRI" which he just did today. We just got the CD. I thought I would post the images and MAYBE someone can see SOMETHING.

I hope I did this right.

Much appreciated.
melody

MRIs are very difficult for a non-trained person to read Melody, and it would be better to wait until your doctor reads them and gives his or her report.

If anyone here were to comment on the films, then they'd probably only be guessing and I'm sure you know that a guess could do more harm than good.

If you wanted to try for yourself, then there are some "Read your own MRI" sites on the internet to help explain things to you.

Guess what!!! Alan took a look at the second image and exclaimed "Why are my private parts on this image?"

I never laughed so hard in my life.

I have no idea what that second image is so I guess we'll wait and see.

Thanks anyway
lol, Melody

Alan

lol, i am guessing, but i think that #2 is a crossection of a lumbar vertebra..
did you get the radiologists impressions along with the film?

Not yet, The MRI was done yesterday, he came home with the disc and the guy at the MRI place said "Monday, the report will come in".

I gather that this report will be sent to the neurologist because she's the one who ordered the MRI.

So I shall update when I know anything.

I STILL say that the No. 2 image looks fishy!!

lol lol lol lol

Melody, I am no doctor but the nerve root on the left looks suspicious to me. In any case, if you go to the Chirogeek website, he has a section on how to read an MRI. Even so, I caution trying to figure this out for yourself. Radiologists can be wrong; I am proof positive of that. Let the Neuro sort it out and MAKE SURE the MRI films are right in front of the both of you when he/she does! That way they can point things out to yo and explain it to you thoroughly. Just saying...don't go by the REPORT alone.

Are you talking about the first image, and when you say left, do you mean as I am looking at the image, the left side?

Thanks much

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=lumbar vertebra cross section&flv=1

Thank you very much.

Now only if I had gone to radiology school.

lol

We'll find out (hopefully) tomorrow, what the report is. Or, later in the week.

Melody

Melody, no, I am sorry, I meant the second image. As you are looking at it on the left. Just looks like a nerve root might be compromised but again, I am no doctor. I have trouble looking at those axial views even on my own MRI's. This might help but I would definitely wait and see what the doc has to say.

http://www.chirogeek.com/003_CT-Axial_Tutorial.htm

Hi.

I wouldn't even begin to know where a nerve root is. But I will definitely bring that up when we go for the results. Don't know when that will be. They will probably mail the results (or fax) to his neuro, and I gather she will then make an appointment with my husband.

And you KNOW I'll be there.

Will update.

And I can't thank you enough.

Much appreciated.

melody

Hi Melody
 

I would be careful not to put too much info on a chat site. The MRI contains too much info for people that are not here for the right reason. Just a word of caution. I hope all goes well at the docs :)

Thanks very much. I have requested that these scans be removed. I send a private message to one of the administrators. Thanks for the info.

Now let's get to Alan's report.

He just came home and here is what the IMPRESSIONS ARE:

MRI OF THE LUMBAR SPINE (WITHOUT CONTRAST) The lumbar spine was imaged in sagittal and axial planes utilizing multiecho technique.

1. At L5-S1, there is a broad based disc herniation with severe bilateral foraminal impingment. There is also thecal sac impingement.

2. At L4-5 There is a broad based disc herniation with severe bilateral foraminal impingement. There is also thecal sac impingement.

3. At L3-4 There is a disc bulge and a left foraminal herniation. There is significant bilateral foraminal impingement. There is also significant thecal sac impingement.

Oh, on the first page it also says A prominent hemangioma is seen within the L4 vertebral body.

On the first page )well I don't want to put the whole report in this posting, I just typed in what it said under IMPRESSIONS, on the last page, in bold lettering.

So do any of these impingements and thecal sac things, and whatever, well, do any of these contribute to a person having Peripheral Neuropathy between certain toes of each foot? Not the legs, not anyplace else.

Just between certain toes of each foot.

Thanks much.

Of course, Alan will see his neuro to get her opinion of all this, but I thought I would give it a shot and post the impressions here.

Thanks again

Melody

http://www.chirogeek.com/003_DERMATOME-THEORY.htm

Melody, you might want to read this. In my own opinion and based on what he has going on, yes, it is highly likely that all of this could be causing pain in certain toes. I just had an anterior oblique xray done and will be meeting with my spinal pain doc for the very same thing later on this month. What that report is saying besides the herniations is, yes, there are nerve roots being impinged which is what it looked like to me although I couldn't see the several herniations. Oh, and the thecal sac, if I remember correctly, is also loaded with nerves. I hope your husband gets the answers and help he needs. Best wishes! :) Oops, forgot to add...these dermatomes overlap. In other words, these charts are just for general info.

Hi. and Thank you very much for your response.

I asked him when he plans to go over this report with his neurologist. He said "I have an appointment in September". I said "In September???" why not call her up and ask her what she thinks?" He said "I'm not bothering her, when she gets this report, and if she notices something, then she'll call me"

He never likes to bother doctors.

He has been on this journey for over 8 years. He has been to countless back guys and they all said 'We can't help you, there is nothing on this MRI that tells us it causes your neuropathy"

Of course that was other MRI's done over the years. This is different and his neuro did say that she thinks his neuropathy comes from his back.

So we shall see.

I shall check on the link you provided.

I wonder though, if they think there is a cause and effect, then what might they do to fix this problem? How do they un-impinge nerve roots?

He was wondering if he should get that Teeter Hang up gadget and hang upside down and get his spine back into allignment?

And there is another gadget (cost about $250) whereupon you lay flat on the floor, you bring your legs up over this gadget and it moves in rotation so you are re-alligning your spine. We saw it on tv and Alan said 'Oh that looks like it would help me"

Oh well, we shall certainly continue to fight the good fight.

Thanks much

Melody

Hi, I'm back, and I just clicked on the link you provided. Interesting reading. I then googled pinched nerves and neuropathy and read some more.

The really interesting aspect of this whole thing is the fact that Alan's chiropractic neurologist gave him back his life a few years ago by taking him on as a patient and using a G5 machine on him.

Every time Alan went to see the chiropractic neurologist, he came home like a new man. He said "oh my god, when he used that G5 machine on me, oh my god, I have to find a physical therapist who uses a G5 machine.

I am still trying to find one. I must have called a dozen physical therapists in our area but so far no luck. These machines are very expensive. But when Alan was lying on the table getting his manipulations, and the guy used the G5, Alan HAD NO PAIN when he got up and for a few hours after.

This must mean SOMETHING

Years go it was thought that Alan had auto immune stuff going on, and I still think he does. He has psoriasis, which is auto-immune.

But his neuropathy, I really do think it's related to his back. And we've been to 4 back guys. They all looked at the MRI's taken at the time, and all said "no, we don't see anything".

How frustrating is this??

Melody

Oh, this TV back thing? http://www.getback2life.com/
- my dad has one of those, he has DDD, stenosis, arthritis... Seems to help him for awhile, he has a TENS that he wears quite a bit too.

Melody--
 

--I definitely think, from that MRI report, there's enough evidence of compressed nerves that some sort of therapy is in the offing. He has three disc herniations (at least), meaning the internal contents of the disc has burst through the protective membrane that is supposed to keep it all inside the disc and has spread into the surrounding space, encroaching on the nerve roots at several levels. And given the locations, I would not be surprised if he's got symptoms in his feet, or even in his lower legs, depending on the position he's in.

Certainly, it helps to explain the relief he has gotten with Dr. T in the past--the machines and maneuvers used on him likely opened up space in the foramen and reduced the disc content pressure on his foraminal openings.

The interesting thing would be to compare these images with images in the past to see if the foraminal openings have become more closed off over time. Sometimes, herniations subside--the pressed through disc contents are evenutally re-absorbed by the body, releasing pressure on nerve roots--but sometimes they are sufficiently severe that some sort of surgery would be required to clean up the area. It would be interesting for Alan to get an orthopedic neurosurgical consult (I'm sure his neuro has people to recommend, as do I, if you want). Given his other situations--and his height--it's difficult to say whether surgery would be a primary choice now, or only recommended following other therapies.

I still think, given his autoimmune history, Alan might be co-morbid, and might have a double crush situation invovled in his neuropathy--but there's certianly evidence now that he has compressed nerve roots in his lower back that are sufficient to cause quite a number of symptoms.

Melody, you are welcome. And, yes, it is frustrating. But I really liked what Glenn had to say. He is spot on! Thanks, Glenn, you stated it much better than I did. :) I am just glad, for your sake Melody and that of your husband's, you are getting some answers now. :) Oh, but there is one thing I want to emphasize. Glenn is right...get an OSS referral!!

Thank you Kathi and Thank you Glenn:

By an OSS referral, I imagine you mean an Orthopedic surgeon right? He has one. The guy who did the operation on his calf to lengthen a muscle so Alan would not put too much pressure on his foot ulcer. That operation did nothing.

The foot ulcer is a result of his feet being numb, and after his stent, they put him in cardiac rehab which put him on a treadmill (people with neuropathy SHOULD NEVER GO ON TREADMILLS). He never felt the foot ulcer, and the rest is history. He has a malformation of the bone under the foot ulcer, so it will heal and as soon as he walks too much, it recurs. That's why he wears the custom made shoes.

Now let's get back to his back.

I'll try and get the other MRI's he took, and the rest is up to Alan. I'll show him what Glen wrote (thank you very much Glenn),

We shall see what Alan decides to do. If it were me, I'd get all the other MRI's, I'd march to the neurologist, I would say"

"AHA, look at this, I have compressed nerve roots, what can be done about this?"" or something like that.

But I'm not Alan.

He has put on over 35 lbs since he stopped going to the gym because he has depression over our son.

Nothing I can do about that. We cope how we cope and he likes to pick on stuff all night while I'm asleep.

But he IS trying. So when he next meets with his neuro, maybe she'll say "Take these to the orthopedic surgeon who did your calf, and see what he says".

Will update.

And thanks VERY much to you guys.

Much appreciated.

Melody

No Melody, what I meant and I am certain Glenn did too was an Orthopedic SPINAL Surgeon. For instance, I have two regular Ortho docs; one for upper extremity issues and another that works strictly on the hips and knees. Darn these docs and their specialties lol, but that is how it is. :) Anyway, my spine surgeon is a Neurosurgeon because of my neck. If I ever have to have a lumbar fusion (spine pain doc is trying to keep me from that right now) I would definitely seek out the Ortho Spine Surgeon that is in the same group or even my same Neurosurgeon because they both really cover it all. Just ask the Neurologist for a referral to a SPINE surgeon. The reality is this...they are better trained in spinal nerves, etc. Or, you could also ask for a referral to a SPINAL Pain Management doctor and see what he/she might have to say. But based on what Glenn said, I think I would I shoot straight for a surgeon. If they find that surgery isn't warranted or have other ideas; they will tell you and Alan. :) Oh, and yes, see if you can't get all the MRI's...that would really help.

About two years ago (give or take), Alan's neurologist referred him to one of the neurosurgeons at her hospital (not sure if he's a spinal neuro but he's the head of neurosurgery. I went with him to the appointment. He looked at the MRI, and he shook his head and said "nothing I can do, I'm sorry".

I'll never forget this. As a matter of fact, Alan went there two times. Once a few years before that visit, and again, a few years later. Two separate MRI's and the same opinion.

Now he recently had the latest one, and the reason his neuro sent him for yet again another MRI, is that Alan is complaining about his back and if he lays in a certain position, his neuropathy worsens, and if he lays in another position, or sits in a certain position, his neuropathy gets better, so she said "I really do think it's your back".

At the next appointment I'll ask if she can refer us to a spinal neurosurgeon.


Melody

Hope you get some answers and understanding from the doctor...

Well, she's the one who ordered the MRI and now she thinks his PN is related to his back. So she HAS to refer him to yet another spinal surgeon.

We found one who takes his insurance and we don't need a referal. We have all the films. I have no idea why Alan is not calling up anyone and making an appointment. But I think I know why.

Alan does not like to go behind doctor's back. No matter who the doctor is.

I really think he wants to wait until he has the appointment with his neurologist, goes over the lates MRI results with her and then tell her "We found this spinal surgeon out of Beth Israel, what do you think?"

I know Alan, this is how he thinks.

Me?? I would have made the appointment, the day I got the results of the MRI.

But this is HIS back, and not MY back.

We each have to be responsible for what WE do.

I really believe this.

Take care, and thanks much.

Melody

Just hug him... :wink: