Severe Lower Back Pain... Input?
 

Hello Friends

Have any of you who suffer lumbar pain been told that you have 'MUSCLE SPASMS' !
I spend most of my time on the SCS/Pain Pump forum because I had a lumbar implant done a year ago. It does a wonderful job of covering over the horrible burning neuropathic bilateral leg pain. BUT, I've been having these very painful flares in my lower back.....so much so, that I've been thinking I may be heading toward disability because I am unable to even sit at my DESK JOB :eek:
I asked for a lumbar Xray and that is when it was determined that one of my lead wires from my SCS had migrated down about 6 inches. I had this lead removed 10 days ago. I was hoping that it was the migrated lead that was the culprit in causing this terrible back pain. But there has been no improvement, despite having that lead removed.

The Xray also DID reveal that I have 'multi-dimensional' degeneration of the spine in the lumbar region. My Dr said most people suffer with this as we age and didn't seem to think much of it.
I also have a mild scoliosis (wasn't measured) and Dr said I've probably had this since I was a teen.

Can anyone share any thoughts pertaining to this 'Muscle Spasm' theory?
Sometimes it's just a constant dull ache and I wear a Lumbar Belt, which helps some....but sometimes I get these 'episodes' where it literally feels like someone is taking a chainsaw to my lower back! Does this sound like muscle spasm issues to you?

I was prescribed Zanaflex muscle relaxer and it seems to help some, but it's very shortlived relief.

Do you think I should request a CAT scan? I can't get an MRI since I have an SCS, but I just really need to know what is going on.

Does 'Spinal Decompression' help with lower back pain?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be SO appreciated!

Rae
:grouphug:

Hi Rrae,

Well, SURE you've got muscle spasms back there considering all that's going on giving you pain. DUH! :eek: (directed at your doctors - not you!)

Most, if not all, chronic pain patients suffer from some kind of muscle spasms, and many take muscle relaxers for them as part of their regular medication regime. You might discuss with your doctor a longer acting relaxer. I've got a spasm in my neck/shoulder that's been there pretty much permanently for the past six months or so from pain caused by stenosis in c5-c7. I don't tolerate muscle relaxers well, so we keep working on it with myofascial trigger point techniques, thera cane, and TENS just to stay on top of it.

I've got lumbar pain too, and though it's also caused by more DDD at l5-s1, it generally manifests as muscle fatigue and eventually spasm (and a dagger in the spine) if I don't get/take the pressure off of it (can't sit/stand for too long without support). Speaking of which.... :eek:

I don't know what a CAT scan might/not reveal that you don't already seem to know(?) I have heard anecdotal evidence that spinal decompression/inversion therapy has helped some people with lumbar pain, but as to whether it would help any particular individual... ???

Wish I had more than the old cliché, "I feel your pain."

Best wishes, & do what you gotta do.

Doc

Doc
 

Thank you for that input
I'm sorry to hear of your neck/shoulder issue........

Yes, I'm pretty frustrated in that I can't seem to get ANYbody to really help me center in on this. I have a great PM doc who is on the verge of retirement......he writes out wonderful prescriptions...but is completely NOT interested in digging deeper in to the problem. I'M the one who had to push to get the Xray. I'M the one who has to call the shots it seems like.

I see that you know exactly what I'm talking about when you said 'a dagger in the spine'

Well, since it appears that I have to be my own advocate in trying to get any answers, I better learn more about some of these options - myofascial trigger techniques.... and by 'techniques', are you referring to injections?
Trigger point injections? Is this the same as 'cortisone shots'......

You've opened some doors of possible opportunities I can check in to.
I appreciate it.

Low Pain Levels to YOU my friend!
Rae
:hug:

A good or advanced physical therapist should be able to differentiate if it is muscle spasms you are having and possibly what the cause might be.
Like if it is posture, scoliosis, or use related, and if the nerves might be causing some of it.
Sometimes it becomes a circle of pain - nerve tells muscle to tighten or spasm & then the tight muscle pulls more on the spine & so on...

A good PT should be able to help calm the muscles down with manual trigger point release, heat, massage, ultra sound, low level laser - what ever modalities that won't disrupt your SCS.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Specialization! In a way, it's not his job to delve into the causes of pain (though in another way it is); his job is to help you manage the pain you're ostensibly stuck with. Makes sense but still seems stupid, huh?

I get the frustration, though I've worked past/through some of it (e.g. stages of grief). My orthopedic surgeon advised against surgery for me (everyone/case is different), because the numbers weren't there to support it. Chances were better than 50% of my pain being the same or worse after surgery, and I didn't care for those odds.

His advice was Pain Management (adding that some healing/body adjustment would occur naturally in time) until either my situation or medical science changed. I don't regret that decision one bit; some healing/fusing has occured, as has some further degeneration, but we're dealing with it.

I wasn't, specifically, but they are one of the modalities used in PM. Sometimes they use steroids (cortisone or other); sometimes other little "cocktails"; I'm not really up on them since they didn't work for me.

I was referring to myofascial trigger point therapy ("massage*"). I concur with Jo*mar's observations**, except that in my own experience, while PTs are somewhat familiar with myofascial trigger points & treatment, I would seek out (as I did personally at the suggestion of my PM doctor at the time - he couldn't officially "refer" - politics....) a certified/licensed (depending on jurisdiction) Myofascial Trigger Point Therapist .
http://www.myofascialtherapy.org/index.html

* "Massage" may be a bit of a misnomer, which the therapist joked about with us. Basically, they manually work out little knots in the muscle tissue, but this little manipulation can generate a pain level of 7 if it's done properly. "This too shall pass!"

** especially those about the circle/cycle of pain - I have a lot on that.

The therapist we saw was light years ahead of and beyond the local PTs. There is a lot of overlap. She helped me work on things like posture, gait, proper sitting support, etc. When it got down to the nitty-gritty, she located several MTP issues, worked them out, made some observations, and then taught us how to continue the therapy on our own at home.
http://www.triggerpointbook.com/
with or without a Thera Cane
http://www.theracane.com/
tennis ball, and/or a few other common household items...

There are many. Western medicine pretty much limits itself to two choices: surgery and/or medication. Eastern & alternative medicines take a somewhat wider view, but we must be vigilant against quackery. Then there are individual prejudices like belief systems, past experience, and preconceptions (right or wrong) tossed into the mix....

What's working for me now are a little of each, depending on.... well, a lot of variables. I use/have used meds, MTP massage, TENS, stretching/exercises, distraction (a lot of distraction).... Then there were several boatloads of things that didn't work....

Like I said, we gotta do what we gotta do. :winky:
Hang in there!

Doc

Back pain
 

I fully agree with this advice which I followed with great success.
It took me a while to find the right physio, and you may be able to get some personal references to help you get to the the best.
Just like doctors, they vary.
Mine can find the problem just by look or feel. If a joint is locked up, gently massaging will release it.
Also consider some remedial massage to get the muscle knots unravelled.
Lower back pain is VERY common, and the physios handle this sort of thing all day and every day.
Afterwards, you should embark on a routine to stretch and exercise the back, and look to lifestyle influences that strain the lower back.
Our muscles lose strength and tone as we age yet we try to do everything the same.
Joints tend to stick together, leading to strained muscles as they try to hold the joints in the new position.
Something has to give....

Hi Rrae ~ It doesn't sound like muscles spasms to me . Muscles spasms are a more fluctuating thing -- not the constant horrible deep ache that you describe. And I would NOT want to have decompression if I were you, or you'd end up with more problems than you already have. Surgery just begets more surgery. Just like with fusion -- the levels above/below will fail - and you'll end up needing more surgery. This happened to me -- I had 2 open surgeries for herniated discs - and darn it if the levels below the surgical site didn't fail. Now I have more herniated discs. No one will touch me now tho, since I have a bad case of osteoporosis. :rolleyes:

The American Medical Society said that most surgeries in the U.S. last year had the same long lasting effect as those people who went to physical therapy!!! So there have been many needless surgeries !!! The only reason for surgery should be if your spinal cord is being compressed.

If I had it to do over again, I would NEVER let them touch me -- but my surgeries were done before the internet came into being. :rolleyes: so it wasn't easy to do any real research.

I wish you the best of luck! God bless & take care. Hugs, Lee

I use a lot of distraction - and some of dat traction, which I forgot to mention. I have one of dose units dat hangs from a door.... It gets me to laughing so hard I have to stop lest I pull a neck muscle, because all I can think of is:
http://amayberrystateofmind.com/images/Barney21.jpg

Doc

Can you get a scrip for PT?
 

The reason for the query is its tendency in the spine treatment realm to be an oft used initial therapy for deep tissue spine patients in an effort to assist with their usually well schooled combination of analysis/observation, massage, exercise, and stretching. The use of a therapy service provider whose place of business also includes access to a therapy pool [typically a heated water bromine solution in an indoor pool where both exercise and traction can be achieved. I have spent countless hours in a therapy pool both pre and post surgery as a means to try to build strength and relax everything. After a good workout in pool, a deep end traction with either a cervical collar or those pool noodles strung under the arms allow the back to hang and you can attain a traction effect. Once you have tried this and seem to have good results if any, you could graduate the traction effect under the watchful eye of the therapist by adding weights to your ankles [and they come in graduated sizes- I worked up to 5 pounds on each leg] and then let your self hang or do bicycling in the deep end of the pool.

That's it for now,
Hope you can get some relief Rae,
Mark56:hug:z

Thank you my friends
 

Your responses are packed full of good stuff......so much so that I'm gonna print out this thread and stuff it in my purse as I must deal with how I'm going to handle an unexpected situation.......cripes :( when a death in the family happens, our worlds must come to an abrupt STOP and most of my distant family member have NO idea how 'disabling' I am becoming....
Only my immediate family are the ones who see me curled up in bed wishing I could just fall off of the face of the earth :rolleyes::confused:......

I am in NO condition to travel that's for #@#$%*& sure!
I can't 'boo hoooo' to my relatives about "MY" issues...for crying out loud my COUSIN DIED..!! :eek:
I'm practically having a mental meltdown because I can't be there for people who need support.....I can't even feed my horses anymore....I can't BE ANYBODY!! :eek::(:thud:

Can someone just stuff me in a BOX and Fed Ex me to the funeral?
Could it just BE THAT SIMPLE!!!!!!

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate all your input.
It really means alot to me

Doc.... thank you for that funny 'visual'....I feed off of humor. If it weren't for humor, I'd be a gonner by now, that's for sure.

Hugs to all
Rae
:grouphug:

just a thought..
 

Rae;

Is it possible it is your SCS in your back that is getting your atttention? The mere fact that a 'foreign' object..it is positional..I only say this without any medical findings,because I KNOW my SCS is in my back..lower left hip with leads up inside my spine into shoulder blade area, as I can feel it..not exactly pain all of the time but sometimes.. just an ugh, restricting, sore feeling.. and I know that it is in there! The rest of your "I've had it feelings!!" seem like your fustration of your constant pain..and I am really sorry for that fustration.. we relate, I hope this helps you!! Just a thought..

Hugz, Kathy:grouphug:

Thank you Kathy :hug:
You definitely 'get it'.....
I've had the SCS for a year now and I love that it covers over the maddening burning pain in both legs.
But ever since the one lead had migrated down, that's when the lower back pain presented itself. Since that lead has been removed, I was hoping that would end the 'dagger in the back' issue.....
But it seems to be getting worse and I really wish I could hook up with a doctor who is willing and able to help me identify WHAT this pain is.....sometimes it's a 'burning'....sometimes it's just a deep 'dull' ache....and sometimes it turns into a fullblown flare which becomes acute (as in a 9 on the pain scale)......the 'daggar'
Jo*Mar says it well - it becomes a circle of insanity!!
Questions are bouncing around in my head such as 'is this an RSD-type of spreading thing?? or the nerves being aggravated by the muscle 'spasms'....

When I get back from my 'road trip' I hope to connect with a specialized PT rehab for starters.

Each reply to this plea I've sent out is like a piece of a PIE of 'logic'....and if I put them all together, I think there's an answer in there to be had.

The most frustrating part of it all is that when I seem to get ONE thing 'fixed'...something else goes haywire.

Thanks for your input....it's good to hear from you.....
I hope things are going ok for you
You've always been such an inspiration to me and you were there for me back when I was first getting my SCS.

Forever Grateful
Rae
:Heart:

According to Dr. Tennant in his Intractable Pain Patient’s Handbook for Survival, the first step is to get the pain under control, then identify and tackle the source(s).
http://pain-topics.org/pdf/IntractablePainSurvival.pdf

Likewise, Dr. Tennant's approach is analogized as a patchwork quilt. (I'm extrapolating a bit here). Lots of good advice/strategy in that book. I find myself reviewing it often when things get bad or change. YMMV.

Doc

Dear Rae;
 

Rae...

It's always my pleasure to help you..I hope I can shed some light on your dismay.. I have to wonder also that your pain is in combination of your unit and spread of your RSD as I think the implanation of the unit can promote spread, mine I believe did!!

Nice to visit with you and I am sorry I have been quiet lately..Iam getting there.. thanks for your wonderfully kind words!! They help... and remember, anything I help with please, say..I gotz your back..

Hugz, Kathy

Much MUCH Appreciated!
 

Thank you Doc, for the links!
I tell ya, I get so sick of sifting thru nonsense online.....so I really appreciate when someone lands on a link that targets a specific helpful issue.

I will check it out now! And, I'll probably order the book! I actually DO enjoy researching the 'old fashioned' way.......BOOKS.....aka 'Paper Blogs' :D

Kathy,
yeahhhhhhh :( as much as I DON'T want to admit, I think I might have to get out of denial mode and realize that we are indeed talking RSD spread.
I looked at my journal and flipped it to the page on New year's Day and I wrote "Happy @#$ New Year!.....it feels like the burning is trying to inch it's way up my torso!"....... :eek:

Guess I'll be seein ya over on RSD Forum Kathy.....you have been like the backbone of that forum.....always there for everyone.
I know you've had a rough year and the sadness you've endured.

Man, I just can't believe this! :(:confused:

NO
 

Not RSD spread, that is not a good thing at all........ No. I can't accept that one yet. Nope.
Concerned lots,
Mark

Amen to that. I've reached an understanding with all my doctors. At first, they don't want to see/hear anything gleaned from.... "THE INTERNET". :eek: I get that. So I'm very particular about the source(s) of anything I bring them (they've even scoffed at material from Mayo, FCOL). They do tend to accept NIH, Medline, and a few others, and they'll take a look at what I bring them if I have enough credible corroborating data. Talk about a tough room! :yikes:

Doc

Leesha I totally concur with you when you say you whih you had NEVER let them touch you.

I too am exactly the same. I started off with a herniated disc and had a discectomy on that...but it was no better. So had two spinal fusions L4/L5 and L5/S1 and I am worse now that I was BEFORE I was ever opened.
In fact my pain started off on my right side and its NOW in my LEFT side too......If anyone ever asks me what I think I say NO NO NO NO!!!

Rae you need to sort this out alright. I dont think its spasms either though. I took have that DEEP pain but I dont think I would go the spinal decompression road either....DO NOT LET THEM OPEN YOU!!!! well thats my advice:hug:

Jackie :)

I hear you
 

I had two discs herniate on me. I continued on with my job in construction as I really had little choice; taking Vicodin and Soma. THis worked for about 4 years. Then I was on a really heavy job (actually I wasn't so good, the herniations wore through the sciatic nerve and I vomited at around 2:00 P.M. most days) and I ruptured the discs.

The Surgeon didn't believe what I told him, did not prepare properly, went in on the wrong side and found two major blow outs on the right inside. Total FUBAR.

The next doc spent 6 hrs just cleaning up the scar tissue and another 5 doing a fusion. The hospital screwed up and put me in tiny leg circulating sheaths and ignored my screams of pain all night. The next morning the doc wanted to remove both legs at the knee.

I was left with some weird stuff; now reflexes in my legs and never ending pain in my back which leads to sciatic pain and chronic muscle spasms.

Somewhere a nerve or set of nerves is being stimulated.

As far as I can tell there are limited solutions. List: No more than 1 hour in any fixed position, If you are thin a lace up corset helps a lot. A healthy dose (HIGH) of opiates and a good synergetic drug and perhaps a benzo diazapin. When the spasms hit stand up and put your hands on a wall, support and stretch gently.

In my state (WA) they are cutting off or down most pain med RX. The magic limit is 1/2 what makes my retired life 40% of normal. At 1/2 I'm in bed.

This is what it is. Doctors hate it because it's soft tissue damage and it's hard to document. The good/bad news is that with chronic pain you no longer "get high" when you take the meds. The doctors still act as if you do, but you don't and the therapists are hip.

Have you had any weight gain with the injury? Not using the back muscles or giving them extra work can exacerbate the spasms. They can't do what's asked and so they spasm.

Markway!
 

They wanted to TAKE YOUR LEGS OFF??!! :eek:
Oh my Lord!

I'm so sorry reading what you've been thru!

I sure comprehend what you mean about the pain meds. It's unbelievable to me how high my tolerance is to the pain meds I take! It would lay a 'normal' person flat!
My aunt broke her arm/shoulder in 3 places and I saw the 'pain' meds she was taking - only a drop in the bucket of what I have to take to stay above the wreck that I've become!

I wear a lumbar belt, which does indeed help some. I've been told not to become too 'dependent' upon tho, as it will only serve to weaken my back muscles all the more.
....I like the 'corset' thought! Wish they were still in fashion :p...... not that I give a cr@p about fashion anymore.....but it's hard to find an actual 'corset' in the mall.....:D...... guess I could take a gander of the online shopping, of which I've never really done.

Spinal Decompression
 

Oh, forgot to ask this....

A couple folks have commented on this - in terms of surgical....
but I was wondering more in terms of the NONsurgical spinal decompression....

There are a few spine specialists in my area who use this 'machine'-thing (DXR 9000, or something like that?) Has anyone heard of this?
I don't know much about spinal decompression.

I wonder if there are many discussions on non-surgical spinal decompression.
I ought to take advantage of the 'search' feature at top of page and see.
I will do just that.......

In the meantime, if anyone has any input on this, I'd be very grateful...

Cheers
Rae

Oh, that.....
 

Well, a very dear friend of ours who is a Chiropractor, gave it a go in a joint practice started up with a colleague of his and he had both positive and negatives to say about it. End result, he and his colleague abandonded the joint effort and went back to their individual Chiro practices.

You can achieve similar effects MUCH more cheaply if you have access to a Physio place with a warm therapy pool. Go there. Under the watchful care of the physiotherapist, use the pool with a Cervical Collar floatation device and weights on your ankles. Swim down to the deep end and just hang there for as long as the physiotherapist recommends, and you will have similar results.

Prayin for your solution,
Mark56:hug:z

Victoria's Secret or Frederick's of Hollywood (I only mention those because I've seen outlets for both in malls).

Umm.... steel yourself. It could get really.... umm.... 'nasty' unless you protect yourself by qualifying Victorian corsets or something similarly tame (no guarantees).

Doc

Hi Rae,

Google says it's: DRX 9000
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4193987246237#
(as in Dr. X) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_X_(film)
Great flick, BTW, as is The Return of Dr X - Humphrey Bogart's only horror film (it's a hoot), but it is NOT a sequel to the above! (or to anything else!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_Dr._X

And the DRX 9000 isn't related to either movie (nor to the HAL 9000, Banana Jr. 9000, BFG 9000, et al.)

Doc (with a lifetime of useless [but occasionally useful] knowledge!)

What a Hoot
 

Doc-

You are equipped with an interesting sense of humor to help all of us through these times! Boy, with you Lost in Space, and Rae pulling things out of her left pocket, we could get into a real :ROTFLMAO:!

Yup,
Mark56:)

Yep Mark....
 

.....and ya better watchout! I'm gonna order us EACH a corset from Vic Secret,....so we can have matching corsets to wear to church on Easter Sunday yes?
Now THERE's a 'visual' for ya! :cool:

Oh, Thank You but NO
 

I remember all TOO WELL the rigid polymer corset with velcro and ties and such I had to wear after deep back surgeries. Now that was one UNCOMFORTABLE getup and I had to wear it for many weeks. One of those keep the fusion from failing too early type garments. Believe you me, IF you wind up talking fusion with a board certified spine surgeon you will wind up wearing one of those. Kinda hard to find them at Victoria's Secret.

Ouch,
Mark56:D

....or to the next Rocky Horror Picture Show.... :p

Thank you!
 

This is GOOD to know! THank you very much!
......I have a sneaky suspicion that the first place I was going to check in to would fall under the category of your first paragraph! :eek:
This is good to be savy on! Now I won't seem like such a 'sucker'.......

Whaa???
 

I just looked up "spinal decompression", and as I understand it, they are the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_..._decompression

I don't get it - what's the diff? Can someone 'splain me (using small words)?

Doc