Just came back from April 21 meeting of the PN Support Group
 

We just came back. We had a guest speaker, a chiropractor. VERY INTERESTING MEETING. The guy uses lasers to treat neuropathy.

I have some clips of the guest speaker to put together to make a video. I'll do this tomorrow morning.

Glenn was there and was his usual entertaining and very informative self. It's always nice seeing him.

And everyone loved my muffins.

So tomorrow morning I shall continue to post on this thread and explain about what was discussed at the meeting and I'll include a link to my youtube video which I haven't yet made BECAUSE IT'S LATE!!!

lol
Going to bed.

Hi All

The video is now live on youtube. I am including a link to that video in this posting.

Last night at the PN Support Group meeting, we had a speaker. His name is Dr. Arthur Raisfeld. He has a new practice in New York City.

Here is his contact information

Arthur Raisfeld, DC
235 E. 49th Street (Suite 3)
New York, NY 10017 (inside the offices of Midtown Total Health)
Phone number is 646-863-7174
Fax is 646-863-7179

Dr. Raisfeld spoke about using Laser/Led Light Therapy for treatment of Neuropathy. He has had success with this.

I thought you all would like to hear what he had to say, so with his permission, I recorded portions of what he said, and I made a video.

We all asked good questions and he provided great answers to those questions.

So here's the link to the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dj8roA_lZQ

Thanks for the video!!!

This is very interesting. I understand the idea of "waking up" or "stimulating" nerves, but I didn't hear any explanation of exactly what his procedure entails. How does he use the lasers/LED's? What's involved with the procedure? Are the results immediate or does it take multiple treatments?

Glenn,

Have you done research on this treatment? I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

Hi. No, I have not done any research in this treatment. Because youtube has a limit on how long a video can be, I had to edit some out.

As he explained it, he doesn't shine a light on the area, there are little pads that he attaches. The treatment lasts for 20 visits, but people have seen improvement by the 5th treatment.

I have his website. If you go there, you can see on top there are options to click on. His website is still being made, but there is info to be found at the moment. So go and poke around and see if it peaks your interest.

Here is Dr. Raisefeld's website.

http://www.metropolitan-chiropractic.com/index.html

I have an issue with "20 treatments".... that seems rather fixed to me. Sounds expensive too.

Actually the doctor was very flexible. He explained that 20 treatments ** but people do 10 treatments and he did offer discounts. So there is no hard and fast rule that one has do to 20 treatments.

I believe that someone from the PN support group is going to do this.

If this happens, I'll update on this thread.

I mean, if one can afford it, and nothing else has worked, be it acupuncture, pain meds, rubs, ointments, creams, soaks, whatever, if this has even a slip of a chance, and a person can afford it, well I remember when Alan went to Dr. Theirl and he was a chiropractic neurologist and he made Alan get off of Fentanyl.

So.....one never knows.

Sounds promising to me. I wish I won the lotto. But I don't even play

lol

Yes, do keep us up to date.

I always have a hinky feeling with these treatments offered.

If they were so great everyone would be doing them...there are just millions of people out there. They would be lining up!

But that doesn't seem to happen does it?

In this economy??????

lol

I agree. They always seem to have multiple visits required and of course insurance NEVER pays for it. If it was so good, then one would think insurance go with this kind of treatment vs stimulator implants, high $$ meds, etc.

whats the difference between these treatments and anodyne therapy

i heard that medicare will not pay for anodyne therapy anymore

Thanks for the link Melody. He seems to be very new at this and only links a couple pubmed articles on the laser lights. They appear to be more research than clinical application, since it's lists animals and human "trials" in what looks to be a grant support article.

Then again, if he's still developing the site, more promising documentation may be revealed in the future.

I have no idea what the difference is. I've never researched anoydyne therapy. But with the LED lights, they put the pads on the various places and turn on the lights and WHO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS!!

If I hear anything I'll update here.

I tried anodyne therapy for small fiber neuropathy. I had about 8 treatments. I thought I felt some relief after 3 or 4 treatments but I think it was just wishful thinking. I stopped after 8 because there was no difference. In fact I thought it got worse.

I'll be interested to know if this procedure is the same as anodyne. I even tried the "Rebuilder". It seems both these procedures that work to stimulate the nerves only brought more pain for me. I wonder if the lights would cause pain while stimulating the nerves. I'll look into this by way of his website, and try to get more info.:Thank you:

Glenn,

You were there, what's your thoughts on this? I'm interested in your opinion.

Medical light therapy is not new.

I seem to recall blue and green lights used by chiros years ago.

Then they stopped advertising that. Now one hears of cold lasers and such...but this guy doesn't seem to be using them?
My YouTube stalled at the 6 minute point and I didn't go back to it. Did he show the instrument? Pads? Not like the cold lasers I've seen pics of, which are like a thick long pen.

I remember a friend of mine, sharing her light device her masseuse loaned her. I tried it on my knee, back when I had that big swelling, etc, and it made my pain worse. I was not impressed. This was about 10 yrs ago.

Here is an example I just found: being used in Europe.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...nEERHIFmqEkrwA

Bioptron light therapy.

I was at the meeting--
 

--and I did bring up the similarity to anodyne therapy; I suspect the mechanisms are much the same.

I suspect that the mechanism is primarily ischemic/circulatory and involves the nitric oxide pathways. The laser light energy (red light emitting diodes are typcially used in anodyne therapy) provides additional enery for electron excitation and production of vasodilating substances, and with improved circulation, more nutrients and oxygen can get to damaged nerves, and more waste products out. I would also suspect that the proposed reduction in inflammation would help with such transport and minimize the damage being done to nerves.

Accordingly, I would speculate this would be most effective in those who neuropathy ultimately has an ischemic/circulatory basis. Of course, that is a lot of them--the mechanism in diabetic neuropathy is to a great extent circulatory deficiency, a number of autoimmune neuropathies associated with collagen/vascular breakdown also fall into this category, etc. It might also help with people experiencing "double crush phenomenon"--the situation in which actual spatial compression (such as in the carpal and tarsal tunnel regions, or a the back of the knee, to name three spots that are prone to compression) exacerbates the effects of other more systemic neuropathy causes and results in symptoms greater than the sum of the contributing parts. (I also talked about this at the meeting.) If reduced inflammation could result in nerves being less compressed symptoms might improve.

I'd guess this would also be less effective for those whose neuropathy stems from nutritional deficiency, actual infectious pathogen invasion of nerve (i.e, HIV infection, cytomegaloviral infection) or toxic issues--things that actually fray apart the axons.

Anodyne therapy
 

Disregard my question. I didn't see the replies about anodyne until after I sent my question. Thanks.

I have read about anodyne therapy too. I'd like to know more. Is this guy doing the same thing or is it something different? Has anyone here had positive results with anodyne therapy?

This may be a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

For neuropathies which stem from ischemic/circulatory problems, wouldn't long acting nitrates and/or calcium channel blockers be just as effective? Without the 20 visit, $2400 price tag.

Well, good question.

I think when one gets down to the capillary level...there is no way to dilate that small. This is why viscosity of the blood becomes important, in the bone marrow disorders that pump out high length chain proteins which clog up the serum.

High viscosity also comes from high sugar intake, and high fat meals. (this has been tested in studies).

Also when the blood cells enlarge as in macrocytic anemias, the cells have trouble passing thru the tiny capillaries.

Most of the spaces in those tiny capillaries are the thickness of one normal red blood cell. Those vessels do not have smooth muscle. I believe that stops at the arteriole level.

So perhaps the light works at this very tiny level... and I am being generous here with the "perhaps".

Did anyone ask what happens if this treatment or has it made anyone worse?Success rate and how many people with PN have done this?
Sorry I am very skeptical. All the doctors who have these special treatments seem to act like sales people. Notice how personable they are and they relate the treatment to their loved one or themselves. Very different then the typical neurologist.

Hi Daniella:

That very question was asked at the meeting. The chiropractor said something like:

"Well, obviously, since we really don't know how EVERYONE will react to this treatment, if we do see that the pain is worse, THEN WE STOP THE TREATMENT immediately."

I remember this being said.

I guess everyone's neuropathy is distinctive to themselves and no one really knows what will happen. But this chiropractor's dad had a very positive result from the treatment and that's why the son is now doing it.

Not being able to to dilate at the capillary level makes perfects sense. Then my next question would have to be whether anticoagulation would improve flow...even to the tiny vessels?

I have particular interest in your logic because I have APS (Antiphospholipid Syndrome) to include 3 strokes & 2 amaurosis fugax. I also have SVID (small vessel ischemic disease). Of course, I'm on life long heparin injections. I must keep in mind that ischemia might be contributing to my ganglionitis induced neuropathy. However, I must say that I find no improvement being anticoagulated...but who knows if it would be worse if I was not.

I can maybe understand light opening those tiny vessels. But I would think this could/should be easily confirmed via vascular imaging studies...and I don't see any documentation to support HOW this works or that it does open vessels. Then again, IF it does open these tiny vessels, how does it KEEP them open for any reasonable length of time?

Thanks
 

Hi Melody,

I wanted to come to the meeting this past Thurs. but I forgot my daughter was off from school this past week. We ended up going away for 4 days, we went to a few colleges, spring shopping and of course I worked so I just couldn't get there. I have it on my calendar for next mouth.


That is a really interesting video. I started watching it and we had a power outage right in the middle of it so I'm going to watch it once I have a better internet connection. Right now it's hanging by a thread.

Thanks again,

Gabbycakes

Certainly good questions--
 

--from everybody.

I know what the people who use lasers and anodyne therapy claim, and the supposed mechanisms by which these treatments may work, but, like anything else, an individual person's "mileage may vary".

I think Mrs. D has a handle on this--the ischmeic neuropathies seem to be primarily small fiber (except for some anti-nuclear antibody conditions which seem in addition to affect larger fibers, such as polyartertis nodosa) and linked to capillary (small-blood vessel) problems, or to larger peripheral artery issues. (Of course, the link between nerve insufficiency and peripheral artery disease is quite easy to see and has been known for a long time--if one's main arteries are compromised, ain't no surrounding tissue very happy--and if one has documentable peripheral artery disease it's likely the capillary level is not functioning well, either.)

I think the vessel dilation effects of these therapies works more readily on the smaller vessels--it's simply easier to activate nitric oxide in smaller spaces. The endothelium, or inner lining, of blood vessels uses nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscle to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation and increasing blood flow. This "gas singaller" is also helpful in inhibiting leukocyte and platelet clumping. The idea is that the application of specific wavelength energy helps to produce nitric oxide from the amino acid L-arginine by utilizing the enzyme nitric oxide synthase (it may take a certain energy level to activate the enzyme)--but since nitric oxide is a highly reactive molecule and will only exist for short periods of time before reacting with oxygen (it is chemically classified as a free radical becasue of the unpaired electrons in the molecule), the goal is to replace the substance often enough to keep up its vasodilating effects. (Yes, I know, total chemistry nerd.)

I imagine there may be other salutary effects from the application of specific frequencies that other nerds may be able to document.

BTW, too much nitric oxide hanging around is not generally a good thing--large amounts are an inflammatory marker. But there has been evidence of reduced amounts in people with blood vessel constriction.

I may not have understood this correctly. Are you saying that the laser helps to activate nitric oxide, thus inducing vasodilation and increased blood flow? If this is correct, and nitric oxide only exists for short periods, then how can the laser treatments still be effective after 20 treatments?

And also, would anticoagulation (and actually altering the viscosity of blood) have the same effect?

Coagulation factors...and high platelets etc are different from the globulins that are peptide (protein fragments) that are made in the marrow or elsewhere in the immune system, in excess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryoglobulinemia

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/total-serum-protein

Coagulation factors are also proteins, mostly made by the liver.
When people go into liver failure, they often may bleed to death, because their coagulation factors are impaired.

It is all pretty complicated. But I believe coagulation is different, and separate in cause from the immune factor globulins. So suppressing coagulation would not affect elevated immune globulin contributions.

You're right. I should have known better. Anticoagulants do NOT actually change the viscosity, but rather alter (decrease) certain proteins to prevent clotting. So it would likely have no effective in this setting.

I still can't figure how the laser treatment could ever be complete/stopped based upon the short action of nitric oxide...if I read Glenn's post right. Any thought's on this?

The only scenario that makes sense to me....is that perhaps light reaches the capillaries because they are so close to the surface of the skin...and denatures (breaks up) the protein fragments so the blood gets thinner and moves thru better.

You know some serum diffuses into the tissues, and returns as lymph. If it gets stuck there in the periphery it cannot return. this would be possibly visible as edema.

But if this were an accurate guess as to mechanism.... it would not explain why the treatment ENDS. In order to end this problem one would have to go to the source making the excess fragments to begin with.

All vibration and light would do is move things along while applied. Seems to me it would have to be done forever.

Don't you just love the interaction between all the other people on this particular thread. I read what they write, don't understand a word, but it's so darn fascinating that there are people on this forum so darn smart, that they all could be practicing medicine in one form or another.

I've learned about coagulation factors, and peptides. and the words

"This "gas singaller" is also helpful in inhibiting leukocyte and platelet clumping."

I mean, these people know NEUROPATHY. You should have seen the chiropractor's face when Glenn started speaking. The guy nearly fell off the chair. He might have come to that meeting thinking he would teach us about neuropathy. He clearly corrected himself once the questions began.

I think we taught HIM something. All I know is as I continue to read these various posts, I continue to learn. I only wish I was this interested 30 years ago. I was too busy eating myself to reach 300 lbs.

But now I use my brain instead of my mouth.

lol

Looking forward to meeting you at the next meeting. You must come. And we talk muffin talk too!!

Melody

Mrs. D.

I have to add one thing that the chiropractor said during his presentation and afterwards. Some people asked "is this laser treatement a cure for neuropathy"

The man was VERY CLEAR. He said many times. 'I must make this clear, this is NOT A CURE, this is a symptomatic relief of neuropathy"

And when someone said "What does that mean" He said "I cannot cure neuropathy, I can relieve the symptoms, make the pain go down from let's say a scale of 10 to a scale of 4"

So he was making it clear, that whatever the lights do, it's not a cure, but the tingling, the burning, the zipping and zapping WOULD BE LESSENED.

He was very clear on that.

Just wanted to share that

And after the presentation, he was sitting and talking to us, and I said "what about medication, what if a person is on medication for pain, and they do the light therapy, how does one know if it's the medication that makes them better or the light therapy"

His response was "It's been our results that many people need much LESS medication after doing the light therapy".

So it is not a "cure".... so why have a finite # of visits...like 20?

Why charge so much? Why not do it forever, for much less $$ so patients could afford at least some? The answer is for the edification of the chiro to make as much money as possible.

Seems to me if the light breaks up the fragments, it won't be until more are made by the body, that another treatment would be useful. So going often may not be necessary even!

An affordable home unit would make sense therefore...so people could do their own symptom relief. Affordable and covered by insurance. With the millions of people out there anyone with any savvy could make a fortune by charging an affordable price for something that works, and has no side effects like the drugs do.

As long as greed reigns in this country we will never see it!

Mrs. D.

You hit the nail on the head!!!!

Thanks much

Hello,
I enjoy reading the information put forth on this forum many have probably seen the light therapy kits being advertised on TV. I had 5 ultra sound treatments on the neuroma in my right foot and it didn't help. My chiropractor stated to me that he had little success with clients suffering from PN, the only positives were the spinal adjustments. He did not charge medicare for the US treatments since they didn't help. He told me if I was into trying different methods of treatment to try the bee stings as they had helped some of his arthritis patients.

when the treatments end if they make you feel better that is when the pitch for the home unit begins. that is how it works with the anodyne therapy and subsequent home units they sell. as i said above medicare used to cover anodyne therapy treatment for those with diabetes or circulation problems but doesnt anymore. The results of the treatments may have been poor overall.

This is from an insurance company website:There has been insufficient evidence in the peer-reviewed, evidence-based literature to support providing coverage for this service. At this time, Anodyne® therapy for the treatment of diabetic peripheral neuropathy is not recognized as a standard of care, therefore is considered experimental and investigational, and not reimbursable by Medicare. There is currently no circumstance for which Medicare covers Anodyne® Therapy.

The website for the laser treatments says that after 20 visits, some patients come back for "touch up" treatments. Fancy way of saying that it's a never ending processing. The $2400 is just the beginning.

They charge this much because some people who do have the finance and are desperate will pay it. I saw a holistic doctor who was similar. My gramps see's him and is on 40 vitamins and supplements that he buys from the doctor and goes in monthly for I think 500 not covered by insurance. My gramps has the money though but it is still being taken advantage of. The doctor is super friendly salesperson which can make a person feel like they are being treated properly,etc. That is why I stated about the gentleman at the meeting be so friendly and relating it to his family. It is to pull the person in to feel safe etc.I am not saying there are not good alternative docs but many are out for the $.
You know awhile back I spoke to this acupuncturist. She stated that this may not help the actually nerve pain but what it does do is help with anxiety,sleep,digestion etc. Those combos help with pain because your body is in better balance. What I liked about her was that she was honest. When a doctor tells me I will be fine in X days or it is the cure I know they are full of it.

Its on my calendar. See you there.

I finally got to watch the whole thing once my internet came back late yesterday. I gotta get out of the woods. Anyway, I found so interesting when he spoke about stimulating the nerves. The only time I have complete 100% pain relieve is when I am at the gym and moving my arms continuous. Not weights or anything when I'm on a eliptical machine and it has the arm gear that goes back and fourth while you are holding it. That continuous movement stops the pain. Unfortunately it only last while I'm moving as soon as I stop it comes back. But I have found this very interesting. I have known that movement has helped my RSD for quite some time. And there are doctors who spec. in RSD for children who have a protocol out for this type of treatment. These children participate in treatments that consist of extreme PT and excercise, for lack of a better word, to beat the RSD away and stimulate the nerves back to a normal level. This works better with children than adults, but there is a team of doctors working on a protocol for adults out of the University of Chicago.

Thanks again for the info.

Gabbycakes
Gabbycakes

I. too, think--
 

--that for those who might find these types of treatments effective, the treatment would have to be continued over long periods of time--possibly permanently.

Now, it is likely that the vasodilating effects of these treatments would help with nerve maintenance and healing, especially if they allowed more nutrients and oxygen in, and more transport of waste products out, on a regular basis. In essence, that might even help to slow or arrest the progression of the neuropathic processes. I'd also think, though, that if the fundamental cause of the neuropathy is not addressed, whatever that is, these treatments might give some symptomatic relief, and promote some healing, but at best that would be a holding action. One would still have to get blood sugars under control, address autoimmune issues, promote optimum vitamn/mineral levels, etc., to hope to have a chance at long term relief--otherwise the conditons promoting the neuropathy would quickly reassert themselves after treatments.

Hi All.

I have been asked to clear up the price issue. The price ** is not fixed in stone. This is a doctor who will work with people and he gives discounts. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear. I believe he will lower that price (don't know how much) but I really do think he would do this.

I thought I had written this before but it was brought to my attention.

I'm glad I have the opportunity to clear this up.

And again, if anyone I know goes to see him and takes the treatments, and reports back to me I will surely post the information on this thread.