anyone try Low Level Laser Therapy or LED for PN?
 

I was at the orthopedic office today for a check up on my back; i saw the NP and told her my biggest issue was my PN. Did dshe have the magic bullet. we discussed where I have been and such....she showed me a website about this Low Level Laser Therapy and said they had 2 patients that were having relief; told me to use my common sense and due diligence/

so here I am....

the website is this the denver neuropathy treatment center dot com

says there are 280 nationwide so anyone have any experience with this?

THX
ROB

yipee *edit* I can give the proper link

http://www.denverneuropathytreatmentcenter.com/

I can't speak to the PN part of it, but my chiro uses LLLT when needed for my shoulder, neck, elbows, foot -Plantar fasciitis, low back..
sometimes I only need 1 tx with it and sometimes again at the next appt.

But usually the sore spots (chronic RSI & misc other pain) go away instantly after the LLLT. They may eventually come back due to activities but that's life sometimes.

I wish I had on of my own.

But you don't need to go to a special treatment center, many chiros and some PT places have LLLT , just call and ask them about it and if they have experience with treating PN.

We've recently been having quite a discussion here--
 

--about light-oriented therapies for neruopathy, based on a presentation by a chiroprator who uses them who presented at a recent NYC Neuropathy Group support meeting:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread148916.html

TY both.



I had followed that other thread glen where the treatemernt was debated however didn't see any postings in it about results. as is very evident the more I learn about PN each person reacts to different treatements individually. as I am desperate to get some relief I was hoping that someone else had tried this laser and would post their individual results.

discussion about the marketing of these products as well as pontificating about WHY someone thinks something doesnt work is like an 'armchair quaterback' to me/ was looking for some TRUE HONEST results from a patient that tried this therapy.

and while its said the light doesnt CURE PN I would sure be happy with minimizing some of MY symptoms while I find my triggers and solutions/


I have followed and tried every recommendation I was given on this board YET my pain rages on.......so if you have any ideas what i could try next please do share.

Here is an interesting article on cold lasers:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5036278_co...europathy.html

Notice the Vit D mention? Did you have your Vit D measured at the doctor's?

My vit D

jan 2009 14ml;
started taking 2 - 2000 D3 daily
dec 2010 37.3ml
still take 2 - 2000 a day/

You are still a bit low... with the target of 50 being the lowest normal now.

I'd bump up to 5,000 IU D3 daily and get retested in 3 months.
If you want to use up the 2,000 you already have take 6,000 one day and 4,000 the next and alternate. That might put you closer to 50. Either that or more sun exposure.

ok TY mrsD.

I will add a bit more plus with the warmer weather coming I SHOULD be getting more sun soon :D

i am going for a consult with the laser chiro/ Guard is UP!

Please let us know how it goes. I think many are curious about this treatment.

so i went to see the laser doc today.

it went very smoothly. during the consult I discussed my aprehension since I had just been TAKEN for 8K by some other chiropracters. we went thru my history, he looked at my latest lumbar MRI.

then we went to the exam room. He performed a standard diabetic neuropathy exam using about 10-12 individual tests like cold things and vibrating things. the pin. My score was 36 left/40 right. It said that a ~75 was normal. He showed a loss in almost all the tests and concluded i had a combination of small fiber and large fiber nerves affected. we started to discuss the laser and i asked if the laser treatements would become a lifelong commitment and need treatement forever. he said absolutley not. anything the laser resolves is fixed but that my body may continue to degenerate and these may need future treatments but these were very infrequent.

he said he felt the large fiber or motor nerves were prolly from my low back issues and he could address then later but felt that the small fiber neuropathy was treatable with the laser. He said they pretty much call the treatment a 20 visit plan. he said they needed to be done in as short a timespan as possible. however he understand my concern and suggested i consider 10 visits. he wants 1250 or so for that. he said i can pay as i go or they would work with me in any way I needed. help with financing, etc.

i scheduled my FREE first treatment. I go in for that on Monday. he said he hasnt has anyone YET that didnt have some kind of relief within five visits. Kind of suiggested if I go ahead i go with 5 visits minimum to determine if it helps/

I went to the chiro on Momnday to recieve my first laser treatment.

I agreed to 10 treatments to start so I recieved a FULL treatment for my FREE visit. It was about 20 minutes with the lasers on.

so the treatment; they put this plastic bag over my foot and it went up to my knee. then they put some of the laser pads on the back of my ankle and put these clam shell like things on my feet. a blanket to keep the light in for others. I didnt FEEL much except some small tingles here and there. That was it.

I met a patient there who was on treatment 9 and said their level of discomfort and pain had been halved from the laser/

I am not sure why but i agreed to 10 treatments for 1299. they offered me just about any which way to pay.......even a monthly plan with no interest.

I have 4 scheduled next week/ so look for updates then/

Were you able to see the actual "laser" machine?
like the brand name & model #?

The laser my chiro uses is a hand held one* and only needs to be applied to an area for less than a minute.
* It is much like a Ultrasound machine with a base and then the actual laser part has a cord from the base to the laser tool/light portion.

What you describe sounds more like a LED light therapy- where it does take 20-30 minutes per area.


They can look very much alike and they may do the similar therapy , but they should not call it a laser if it is a LED.


I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want a LLLT to be on one area for 20+ minutes.


If you can see the brand & model then you can search it to see what it is.

I'm curious to know what they are using.

If a LED you could buy your own have it forever, same w/ LLLT really but they cost more.


this site shows both LED light therapy equipment & cost of machine & cold/soft/low level laser and costs
http://www.coldlasertherapies.com/category_s/1.htm
http://www.coldlasertherapies.com/Te...diance_s/2.htm
http://www.coldlasertherapies.com/category_s/3.htm
and of course there are plenty of other sites & prices

I would be cautious - seems to me if it really works we would be hearing more about it. I'm going to ask my neurologist when I go for my checkup this summer - he is not opposed to alternative treatments and was glad when I started acupuncture [it did give me some feeling back in my feet].

I would also check to make sure insurance covered this - it can't be cheap can it? Know mine wouldn't cover it, doesn't cover acupuncture either.

In my first posts I gave this link to the place. they seem to call it laser as well as LED; hence the confusion.

again here is the link http://www.denverneuropathytreatmentcenter.com/

they seem to call it LOW LEVEL LASER while in fact I believe the lights are LED.

when i go next week i can ask the make,model and serial number :D




i am being catious.....any more cautious and I will just be home reading about it.

MY ORTHOPEDIC dotor is the one who suggested i look into it. I wouldnt call it a referral but more of a suggestion. he also said he had 3 patients who were trying it and getting some relief.

NO INSURANCE. MINE DOES cover accupuncture but not 'LIGHT THERAPY'.

as I think we all know, insurance will not cover MOST non tradidtional treatments.........


so since INSURANCE doesnt cover it....does that mean we shouldnt look into it. my insurance wont cover Bariatric surgery but they cover Heart attacks. does that mean I shouldnt try to lose weight, instead just wait for a heart attack that my insurance DOES cover. PUUUULEASE/ :rolleyes:

Hmm they don't have a very informative website - only the main page and nothing else??

I would definitely ask if it is really a LLLT or if it is instead LED light therapy.

I don't like misleading information by businesses or websites.:(

Maybe they were told or lead to believe it was a LLLT when they bought the machine... or maybe they are fudging the facts.
Easy enough for them to verify what they really have with a search online if they wanted to.

My chiro thought his first combo machine had a laser but when I was asking about it he must have looked it up online later and found it was only a LED, next appt he had a different machine..with real laser.

If only a LED that they are using , you could actually buy your own and treat yourself a lot cheaper than going to their sessions.

I'm really sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I don't think your theatrics was necessary however!

I have other "conditions" besides being cursed with Idiopathic PN [no I'm not diabetic as most everyone in the world seems to think someone must be in order to have PN]. I know treatments not covered by INSURANCE can be very expensive, most of which I wouldn't be able to afford. It was concern that made me mention that to you.

I'm also from Colorado. I'm new here, as you would have seen had you looked to the left under my name. Not getting good vibes.

Again, I did not mean to offend, please accept my apologies.

Here is an article that explains the differences between LED and low level laser:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...fGyliqKRtIigwg

This article goes into more detail:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...KIfzIVJ9EbYT7g

But I would definitely find out if this clinic is delivering LED light treatment using LASER studies like these two articles claim.

From the description of the "pads" it seems like LED... because the units for LED use pads.

Here is a video from YouTube--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTc3OQDRq8
Does not look like a laser to me.

The ad for the Denver clinic clearly uses LASER in it several times.
I think you should get clarification about this, since the two modalities are distinctly different.

Killian dont worry about it , you did nothing wrong. just ignore those posters that rub you the wrong way or who are not happy with the help you tried to give to them. If you look at post #5 on the same thread you will see what you are dealing with.

Echos thank you - I appreciate that. And yes I see.

I guess my thought too is - if something sounds too good to be true it probably is. Although I would like to give the red lights a try sometime, who knows.

If I was going to spend money I think I would want to try to be seen at The Center for Peripheral Neuropathy at the University of Chicago. I do however have a wonderful neurologist at home.

As I mentioned I have PN - just lucky because no reason can be found for it, mine is idiopathic. I don't have any "triggers" as mentioned in that post - my symptoms are constant, I have muscle weakness in my legs from it, it has started in my hands. My main goal is to not let it stop me from doing things - life is too short. I am not diabetic and will admit it is frustrating to always hear about "the heartbreak of diabetic neuropathy". My understanding from an article in the Neurology Now magazine is the percentage of those with PN who are diabetic is small.

I take a very low dose of neurontin because I don't like medication - I also go to acupuncture once a month, at first however it was 2x a week. Imagine my surprise when after 4 or 5 treatments I felt the liquid she was putting on my feet was cold - when I said oh that is cold, she just smiled and said it was supposed to be. So it has given me back some feeling in my feet - it also has helped with the lightening strike pains.

Shouldn't ramble. Thanks again echos.

Hi mrs. D

It seems the youtube video is from a different clinic - it is in Castle Rock, CO and called Helms Chiropractic & Wellness and the site says it uses "MIRE Therapy (monochromatic infrared energy therapy)", I didn't see laser mentioned.
castlerockspinaldecompression.com/custom_content/c_54568_neuropathy_treatment.html

The one that robpp mentioned is in Denver, and does mention laser
denverneuropathytreatmentcenter.com/

Thank you for the articles on the difference between low level laser and LED.

When i go on Monday I will ask the details about the machine.

THe tech showed me the foot part when they were taking it off. the lights were on. they were small red lights like LEDs. he even called them LEDs and said i could look but not directly.

also here is a scan of my sensory loss test given by this doc when i had my exam.

*edit*

Rob

you will need to resize that pic to post it here. It was so large that it was distorting this entire thread!

also please remove the name and address of the doctor before attempting to post it again. thanks

Thats great that you have more feeling in your feet. Keep up the good work!
Coincidentally there was an accupuncturist MD at the last PN support group i went to and he said that the sooner after you get PN symptoms that you get accupuncture treatment the faster and better the results will be. I did get accupuncture treatment for my lower back pain and it worked well. At that time the accupunturist told me that there was nothing to be done accupuncture wise for PN. That was about 6 years ago.

sorry

hopefully this size is OK itts less than 600 pixels wide now.....

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/robpp/IMG-2.gif

more on acupuncture:
 

We have a thread here with new information about how acupuncture works. I then did an experiment with ribose, to see if it helps with ATP production in mitochondria and had substantial success.

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...ghlight=ribose

If acupuncture works for you, it might be worth trying ribose to see if you can duplicate that effect yourself.

The "MIRE" therapy--
 

--or monochromatic infrared energy therapy, also sounds very much like what is known as Anodyne therapy, which has been kicking around the web and the pain mangment community for around a decade:

http://www.anodynetherapy.com/what_is_anodyne.htm

http://www.ehow.com/way_5364813_anod...treatment.html

Often, these therapy modalities use essentially the same mechanisms, but practitioners/manufacturers/marketers try to come up with different names in order to distinguish their particular product or technique and attract eyeballs.

$600 for the one model - says for feet but I didn't see anything that looked like it was for toes too. Lots of times I feel like gnawing off my toes - lot of times I feel like gnawing off legs at knees :eek:

I would hope that everyone finds something that helps relieve their pain.

I went for a long time with neck pain caused by a traffic accident, I spent years with various treatments and avoided surgery at all costs. Silly me, had the surgery and its all better, love that Titanium.

Anyway my years of searching did nothing for me except turn me into a hardened skeptic.

Here are some articles I hope will help.

A Skeptical Look at Low Level Laser Therapy

*edit*





Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine

*edit*


And this Not suitable for work (or around small children video)

Storm by Tim Minchin


Have not found anything that helps my PN pain but I know what I will not try.

By definition: Alternative medicine has not been proven to work or has been proven not to work. Alternative medicine that is proven to work is called Medicine.

on the page for - A Skeptical Look at Low Level Laser Therapy- it says
"The most aggressively promoted LLLT product appears to be the Anodyne Therapy System" :confused::confused:


From the Anodyne website - it is LED not LLLT
[45 mw light-emitting diodes (LEDs) used by Anodyne® Therapy ]
http://www.anodynetherapy.com/infrared_therapy.html#LED


Even the ones writing articles can make mistakes about what is what......

It often comes down to, some things will work for some and not for others..

That is interesting... I noticed it too.

What I thought at the time was the example was given...to show that EVEN Anodyne has claimed to be LLLT. Meaning the confusion is quite rampant and common.

In any event...one should be careful and mindful, before spending the large sums of money on gadgets at Chiropractors!

If they call LEDs a Laser... that is one big hint to consider!

i went for my FIRST PAID treatment today. I was given the light therapy for 25 minutes.

I did ask about the machine. Here is a link to it

ProNeuro

http://proneurolight.com/index.html


the best I can tell is they are saying it emits a LL laser from an LED.

I have 3 more scheduled this week. So by next week I should know SOMETHING/

finally tracked down the info on the website.

http://proneurolight.com/legal.html

[Company Profile

ProNeuro Light manufactures and markets state-of-the-art LED photodynamic therapy equipment and was officially birthed in 2003 with the introduction of our unique Light system. ]


The LED may or may not help with PN, but I just wish those websites & businesses/practitioners would be clear & truthful as to which they are actually using,be it LED or LLLT.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration classifies LLLT devices as Class II devices as “lamp, non-heating, for adjunctive use in pain therapy” (produce code NHN)

So any device that produces a light without heat is an LLLT device. Seems to me they are most likely all LED.

Here is an interesting definition from the Cancer Society:

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Trea...-laser-therapy

There has been some conversation on our Parkinson's forum and Alzheimer's about a "light helmet" which uses a particular wavelength of light on the head.

Here is one thread for example:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread83783.html

Here is an article about it, further:
http://www.emersonww.com/InfraredHelmet.htm

Treatment #2 today. 25 minutes of light. then they put me in a chair with a vibrating thing under my calves. and had me try and roll my calves left and right/ 8 minutes and done/


right now, in my slippers, my feet feel like they do after a good cardio workout but i havent done much in the last week/ too much work/

I have 2 more appts this week/ will report on Friday/

Neuropathy + low intensity laser therapy
 

Yes. Many with peripheral neuropathy have been successfully treated with low intensity laser therapy.

**

today was treatment 7.

after treatment 5 they gave me a toilet brush and some topical freeze spray. I have to beat the outside of my leg from waist to ankle then inside the calf knee to ankle. on both sides to stimulate the nerves.

I also use 2 types of vibrating pads after my light treatments. on treatement 5 I asked to have the lights put on my hands as well as my feet and ankles so they have been doing that since.

I have paid for 10 treatments......

I can say that the redness of my toes is way down; pain is less frequent but burning still happens occasionaly but def not as often. during the day with socks on I can wiggle my toes all day. when i wake up is about the same but during the day once I get moving they feel better longer.

I have my next 3 scheduled for next week W, T, F. After those I will provide a more detailed eval as the doc and i will disucss the progress before I pay for any more treatments.