I am 95% cured
 

How ?

1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953353/

Exercice 2 only. 1 session per hour maximum. 1 session = 2 times.


2) Sleeping in "U" (entire arms and shoudlers supported) + neck relaxed with ergonomic pillow : work very well. My blood flow improve in 30 secondes no joke !! with relaxation i feel all my scalenes relaxing between colarbone and first rib. Incredible.


3) Supported arm on computer


Had V/A/N TOS from RSI.

Info : The TMJ become relaxed as the scalene become relaxed.

:grouphug:

do you have like a crappy diagram/drawing of this..do you support your arm/shoulder just with a blanket underneath?

am i the only one who cant use a pillow at all? i put a towel under my neck and that's it.

i usually feel pretty gross when i wake up so i need to change a few things.

OKay.. red is pillows, all same size. The goal is to support the arms, thereby taking the weight off the neck and shoulder all the night. And you need a pillow that support your neck.

You need to support fully and only what is in red.


http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/378/unled8t.jpg

thanks a bunch

90/90 hip shift exercise is interesting too bc i am also knock kneed with floppy hips.

Whats the difference between sleeping this way on pillows or sleeping flat on the bed? The only difference i can tell from the diagrams is that is changes the curve in the thoracic spine. i'll still give it a go though, I'll try anything. I sleep with my arms straight and externally rotated. This position feels good for my TOS but sleeping on ones back isn't very comfortable (though i find it impossible to sleep on my side without being woke up by a dead arm). Also are your elbows bent in the picture ? 40% of people with TOS are supposed to have signs of peripheral nerve entrapment as well so it may not be a good position for everyone eg.if you have ulna nerve entrapment at the elbow

Thanks for the above article. Will give the exercises a try

The difference is shoulder and arms are fully supported. It is not the case when sleeping flat.

(i guess)

When your are sitting, something that support back and shoulder fully is good, i think.

Ive thought about cutting a full length memory foam topper just short of the width of the shoulders so that when one sleeps on it allows the shoulders to fall backwards thereby opening the thoracic outlet but who knows whether it would be comfortable. The problem with mattresses is that they tend to sink more where the body is relative to the shoulders and hence push the shoulders forwards and inwards which is exactly what you don't want

yeah but i think it is the exercice that give these results : I started sleeping like this 3 days ago.

I'm sure it is the exercice now.

Very interested in this thread.

I've been thinking about my sleep position and my particular TOS situation. In my case, I have a compression of my subclavian artery on the right side. I also sleep consistently on my right side/shoulder with my right arm outstretched/straight.

For somebody with TOS on the right side, would this position be problematic?

As for the exercises and this particular case, this is encouraging. If a serious athelete can overcome this with a systematic approach to exercise and stretching I'm wondering if I can as well. I've been looking for a strict approach here. What I'm doing on my own with scalene stretches seems to be helping the symptoms I have around the elbow and last two fingers, but the scapular pain on the right side remains a problem...and it all definitely flares up with serious exercise...just like this particular football player when he has contact.

Are you sure it was just exercise 2 that did the job? What about the others?

KY

I would have thought sleeping on your right side was a bad idea as it would be likely to close the thoracic outlet, but then again if you don't get symptoms overnight then it may not be so bad. Sleeping on my side is a definite no no for me and everytime I do I wake up with symptoms. Slleeping on your back is probably best (with a pillow tucked under your knees to support your lower back) as long as your mattress isn't too soft. If you can't sleep on you back then try the left but try to find a posture that prevents your right shoulder falling forwards and inwards

how long have you been doing it for

im gonna try, it doesnt look like it could cause any damage

Are you sure it was just exercise 2 that did the job? What about the others?

Yes

With this type of conservative treatment the athlete did not see much improvement and continued to progressively get worse after each lifting and conditioning session. After a month of conservative treatment, the athlete began to contemplate having surgery and ending his football career. Because the athlete was not making progress, clinician one asked another clinician to take over his case.

i def find it encouraging AN ATHLETE didnt respond well to conservative tx. you cant blame anything on the patient there. hes in good health, young, and knows how to exercise properly and it still didnt work!!

Are you sue it is actually scapular pain?
Or where exactly do you feel it & what does it feel like?
Could it be the rhomboids underneath the scapula?


I sometimes get a deep achy burning under the edges of the scapula & it is the rhomboids.
They are actually a fairly weak muscle and can be overstretched/fatigued by having the shoulder forward posture - that's when they start to burn and hurt.

I can get rid of that pain easily by doing the ball stretches or laying on the foam roll & paying better attention to my shoulder postures.

I also read long ago that when the pain/symptoms is resolved the strength will return easily.
I found that to be true in my case.

The pain & symptoms really need to be resolved before moving onto strengthening.

yeah this happens on my left side, my shoulder blade itself never hurt but you start to notice everything touching the shoulder is really irritated bc its out of place.

Manual techniques consisted of four techniques: left anterior interior chain (L AIC), superior T4, subclavius stretch (right and left), and infraclavicular pump with opposition.23,28,41 These techniques were done to assist with the postural correction goals for repositioning of the pelvis and trunk including soft tissue and bones. These were done for five breaths, each twice daily.

are the others, im assuming a pt did them.

then his sx went away for 6 wks and he moved onto strengthening

I talked about me. But i did the exercice like 1 time every 2 hours, 8weeks.

And more than 45 secondes each^^

Ugh.

Well that would be a problem. I've been sleeping on my right side like that for years. It's my primary sleeping position. If I end up on my back (which I do often) it's totally by accident.

KY

Jo Mar,

I'm not exactly sure. And it's different all the time.

Sometimes I feel it on the outer edge near the top of the scapula. Today, I felt it towards the left side of the scap where the rhomboids are located. It feels like a cross between a burning feeling and somebody pinching me on the scap.

I'd find it hard to believe that my rhomboids are weak. I can do cable rows pretty well with my right hand and do "superman's" on a swiss ball with 5 to 8lb dumbells held up with my scaps depressed. I usually maintain this hold for 60 seconds.

I don't do this stretch either. Dumb. I have a foam roller that I could use as well.

KY

I lay on my ball or foam roll for 20-30 mins or so, I just hang out and relax.

But for those with higher pain/symptoms less time at first would be less stressful to the body.

20-30 minutes at a time? Wow. Did that work for you? I just tried it for 60 seconds on a foam roller...not that comfortable, but not painful.

Do you let your head hang down? Per the article linked, one of the goals is to inhibit the anterior scalene muscles.

Also, is there much difference between this stretch and say, a doorway stretch that gets at the pecs? I do the doorway stretch quite a bit (although it tends to irritate the scap area).

KY

It is not a stretch, it is inibition.

Ihibition of scalene, we don't care about pec here.

I personaly take 2 chairs to support arm for preventing stretch of pec, because it hurt a little. But they are not as tall as my balloon, because the shoulders need to be supported more than normal.

The key is to tighten the buttocks while having leg at 90°, leg and arm relaxed.

VERY IMPORTANT : Have your shoulders 200% supported (the ball must be a bit hard and wide, but not too much, you need to sink into it, and your arms should hang at least a little to emphasize the support shoulders).

let your upper body sink into the ball. Your Shoulders and buttocks support all. And don't move.

It inhibit the postural muscle anterior scalene from firing, this inducing his atrophy by time, and so add more room on the TO.


20-30 minutes at a time?

The maximum you can do is 2-3 minutes at a time, it is very tiring. I don't joke, if you do it propely, you must be really tired after 3-4 minutes.

I still feel sometimes my blood going to my arm, my scalenes are relaxing, they are very elastic now, i have no more permanent symptoms and my pulse don't disapaer anymore even at 100°. I have no more EDEMA.

Feeling the blood going to the arm is one of the best feeling i ever had for years. I feel it, it start precisely between collarbone and first rib, and above collarbone and go to hand.

I'm here if question.

The guy in the picture (in the article) looks like hes got serious muscle imbalance issues in his back.Look at the vertical distance from the base of his neck to the tip of his shoulder !! Compare pics.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4-170-g003.jpg

vs
http://www.dreamstime.com/muscular-b...umb7398430.jpg

yes, but like us.. upper trapez hypertrophy, rounded shoulders..

I probably do a variation that I came up with just by playing around for what felt good for me with the ball.

I'll also slowly roll my upper body around on the ball to find other tight spots and let them stretch out. The way I use it is as a passive stretch, gravity and the ball do all the work.

Sometimes I lean head back onto ball and some times I hold it in line w/upper body.

What I have found is the pressure & curve of the ball against my upper back allows it to curve forward/upward and my head, shoulders, pecs to all loosen and relax.
It's like the opposite of how we normally use our body in life.
Helps to counteract that FHP (forward head posture) & FSP (forward shoulders posture)


On the foam roll - It was suggested by PT guy for me to use a small pillow under my head


I did start out long ago (2003) with Sharon Butlers TOS program so maybe many of you need to start with something like that before moving up to these types of activities.

If you try them & it doesn't work for you yet or feel good , then it is probably too much too soon.

Sharon starts you out with a gentle warm up torso twist , and her plan moves from head down & out to arms & hands.

Sorry I can't tell much more than that, her program's copyright and such.
Most libraries do have her book in the RSI section. The stretches & other info is in it but not laid out the same as her specific TOS program.

It's not the same principe :)

My upper trapezius feels like that picture Even though I know it's not... I'm definitely a neck breather. I guess we all have crooked pelvises too?
Boytos How is your sitting posture now? Do you feel the need to do any strengthening


The doorway stretch is bad for winged scapulas IMO. If you are going to stretch do it with your back against a flat surface

Maybe :cool: whatever works for us is good.....
- it says on that webpage..

[The second exercise was also designed to address the athlete's faulty postural position. A sternal positional Swiss ball release was prescribed to reposition the head over the shoulder girdles and inhibit the anterior neck muscles, to decrease forward head posture and lengthen the bilateral pectoralis major muscles. ]

Yeah its deactivation versus stretching

turning 1 muscle off and another 1 on

It's what i say. But in our case, the problem is hypertrophied anterior scalene.

For most of us.

With a back like that I'd be surprised if the main cause of the athletes TOS is tight scalenes.

that's the first step of many

I wonder how that would compare on him to doing botox where you arent engaging any other parts of your body..

Shizzle, I just had my wife take a pic and my backs the same!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_X...1000000015.PNG

Eeep I was surprised looking at my back too

Personaly i'm fit; weak shoulders, hard upper trap

4 months ago I could do 7 pull ups with 30kg on top of my body weight and 10 dips with an additional 40kg .

I now use between 1 and 5kg dumbells for my rhomboid and lower mid trap exercises (and have stopped all pec and lat exercises) so Im pretty sure theres an imbalance!!
(on top of which I do cardiovascular exercise 4-5 times a week but have still put on a stone of fat from not being at work !) Nice to know I've being emphasizing all the wrong exercises all these years !


I thought this extract below was intersting.My thumbs point almost directly inwards

I think it's all about proportion : you can be fit and having hypertrophy.