SSDI SSI College
 

I'm sure this issue has been brought up but is there any limits to going to school and collecting SSDI or SSI? I am hoping to attend full time in the fall.

I've owed some money to the college when I first got sick and couldn't complete a quarter and was awarded Financial Aid. Now that I am getting the rest of my backpay soon I am able to pay my fine. A whopping 250 dollars. Which is a lot when you aren't able to work and on a fixed income.

Any help is appreciated!

i would check and see if you can have that fine dismissed being you were found eligible for ssdi or ssi during the time period the student loan covered.

from what i have gathered from previous discussions on here you can go to school while collecting ssdi or ssi.

personally i wouldnt want to take 18 credits a semester and raise any questions from SS in that area as to indicating ability to do some kind of work. but thats just me.

Well they do have the "Ticket to Work" Program. Seems like lots of GRAY area...

I'm still asking the question, and don't know if there is an answer to it.. I went to school full-time to get my Bachelors degree. Ofcourse, I have an diagnosis (schizoaffective) which is labeled 'improvement not likely (7 year window), so I was never given a CDR during that time period. The CDR, or Continuing Disability Review asks you what you have been doing the last few years, so I believe they will ask about whether or not you are pursuing an education.. what effects this has, I'm still waiting to know the answer

I too am dx schizoaffective. I was told if you win basedon a mental disability not to go to school full time. This throws up a flag stating enough improvement to take you off SSDI. This is what my attorney from Allsup told me after winning.

I asked this same question quite some time ago and still haven't officially checked into it. I wanted to take online courses. One course at a time but I guess I'm afraid of stirring the pot if I call someone at SS and ask the question :(

It took so long for me to get approved and I would hate for them to discontinue my benefits in the blink of an eye. I just don't trust them. Sad to say, but it's true.

IApplied in 2006. Was approved in 2009 and am supposed to be reviewed every three years. My review should be coming sometime next year and I don't know how it would affect it if I am taking online courses.

I don't have the money to pay for courses but I still have hope.

One or two classes should not be an issue, and there is no requirement to report this (clarification--you're not required to call and report this now, but you will have to report it when you receive your CDR.) You are required to notify them if you've had a change in your health of course. Many community colleges offer online classes and along with financial aid, this shouldn't cost you anything. Taking out student loans for classes that are more for intellectual pursuits is a bad idea of course. Or even taking classes with the hope of a return to work...

Anyone that can manage a full time load can likely work at least part-time, not a bad thing IMO. Protecting SSD benefits to the point of not moving on with your life makes no sense to me.

These are 2 different scenarios.

This link is meant for those still in the application process, but some of the info is still appropriate.

http://www.socialsecurityinsider.com...benefits-case/

Thanks LIT LOVE.... I cannot open the link you supplied but I did want to respond. I have a college in mind and love their program. It's everything I want on a personal level. I can take one course online at a time but there is a problem... the financing. I do qualify for financial aid but it doesn't cover everything so I need to find the extra money needed from somewhere. I'm not taking out any student loans because I agree that it wouldn't be smart since I'm on SSDI and have no idea if I can ever work again to repay them.

I so agree about not moving on with my life because of SSDI makes no sense. That's why I'm trying to find something to do and am lead in this direction.

In the past,I've been known to make decisions without really thinking about them and then regret them later. That's one reason why I'm a little more cautious in pursuing this.

The link is fixed! And PLEASE READ this one as well:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...bbee32417a5e35

Anyone receiving SSI would need to report financial aid to SS, but that is not an issue with SSDI.

And the 2nd CDR short form question does ask if you've gone to school or received any training. So, while you don't have to call and volunteer this info, at some point in time you will have to disclose it.

http://www.ssd-forms.com/SSDFacts/SSA-455-OCR-SM.pdf

Shari is this a public college? If it's not, you can likely find a similar program online for less money, without a drop in quality.

Thanks again LIT LOVE,
I'm going to look at the links you provided but will do so after I finish posting my reply.

No, it's not a public college. It's a private Christian University and that is what I mean by I want to enroll for personal as well as spiritual reasons and not with the hopes of professional employment when I complete the program. I will look further but their curiculuum (sp?) is exactly what interests me.

Please don't assume that you can't find similar classes through a public college or even a less expensive private one. If this is for personal growth only, I'd try to see if you can find out the books each class uses, and start there! Many time professors will have their syllabus available online. You might be able to audit a class for a substantially reduced charge (this is an on campus option) if you're not well enough to attend some lectures, it's not an issue since your participation would be informal anyway.

Please check into the auditing option. Because if you explain the situation about the SSDI, many college's will work with you.

Donna:grouphug:

SSI, shouldn't deduct funds for financial aid. In fact, they might be able to increase funds if the person is eligible for a pell grant. In fact, pell grant has been increased this year. Loans needs to be reported as well, but are not counted as resource either.

As far it be considered work. From my understanding. School is not a job. You have to be a substantially gainfully employed. Some part time job are not substantial.

The ability to keep a schedule, as required by attending classes, has in many cases been sufficient to show the ability to work. And from my recollection of my college experience, school most definitely was work . . . in some cases more challenging than some jobs I have held!

You might want to check out this information: http://www.socialsecurityinsider.com...benefits-case/

From what we were told. It has to be a full time job for either SSI or SSDI. School doesn't count. In fact, according there own rules they suppose to help with schooling. I looked at that page. It says "substantial gainful activity" that is different than what we were told "substantial gainful employed". That was a long time ago. Did they change that it in the last few years? Do they even follow the own rules? I was going to tell him, he could go back to school if he wanted after I am gone. I guess I will have to tell him, he can't unless he finds a special school.

I heard of special schools. They help people with mental disabilities. He is considered borderline mentally disabled. He has a little bit of dyslexia, minimal brain dysfunction, and has trouble getting along with people. I have no idea where they are. I don't think they would end a disability for people going to special school, that would be consider disability discrimination.

Please check post #10 of mine in this thread and follow the link to see a copy of the CDR form. SSA does require a beneficiary to report if they've received any education or training.

The Ticket to Work Program, if a person chooses to utilize it, has it's own rules and protections.

If he wants to attempt working, he can contact the Ticket to Work Program to receive more information about the services available.

He could potentially make under a $1000 a month and continue to collect his SSDI benefits. But, SGA does not mean a person is capable of 40 hours of work a week. A person can be found capable of SGA if the SSA rules that he or she can make a $1000 a month. Some people have lost their benefits by working part time and the SSA decides they've had an improvement in health.

If you think he's potentially capable of working, then why not direct him to this forum so he can communicate for himself? Or he could contact a local advocacy group as well. If he is under the ongoing care of a pysch doc, he should get their opinion.

Your (or your spouse's) being in the picture does not make him more or less disabled... If you're worried about his finances,and you're currently helping to support him, finding him the resources to achieve independence while you're still alive, would be something worth considering.

You do not have to be SGA, you only have to be capable of SGA.
Big difference. And here's the link to what the SSA considers SGA, a part time job can be considered SGA. And someone making $700 or $800 a month can still be found capable of SGA even if they stay under the $1000 threshold. This is why some attorneys advise their clients to never work any hours or get training. It's a personal decision...

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html

And Financial Aid doesn't need to be reported I was wrong because it isn't considered income:Exempt "Amounts for tuition and fees paid from grants, scholarships and fellowships and gifts for educational expenses"
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/11015.html

Here's the SSA Working While Disabled link:
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10095.html

LIT LOVE
You are not getting the point.

Me & My son was told substantial gainful employed not substantial gainful activity.
Having him doing errands could even be gainful activity or him mowing the lawn or him using the computer or cleaning the house (He is not so good at cleaning the house) and so on. However, none of that means his is not disabled. I am divorced. I am not saying he is cable of getting a job. The problem would be keeping the job and people understanding him. Now with todays economy, getting a job is almost impossible.

I still stand by what I said about the special schools.

The Op should look into pell grants, vocational rehab, and special schools. Then he would have to borrow less. Future SSDI can be garnished for student loans but SSI cannot. This is according to SSA website.

Sir, I made an incorrect assumption that financial aid was treated as income for SSI, and when you suggested I was wrong, I researched the matter and found out you were correct.

My last post was confusing. "You do not have to be SGA, you only have to be capable of SGA." I should have said, you do not have to be performing Substantial Gainful Activity, you only have to be determined capable of SGA by Social Security.

Social Security's definition of Substantial Gainful Activivity is a dollar figure they determine (currently $1000.) Please don't confuse this with a common definition of the words meanings.

My advise to Shari was specific to her, and in response to her concerns. She is expecting to receive her first CDR, she's concerned about triggering a more in-depth review of her case, and that her interest in taking a class is about her personal goals as much as it is about returning to work.

If you and your son are not familiar with the CDR process, this link is a great resource.:
http://nymakesworkpay.org/docs/Guide_CDR.pdf

Gilbert, a poster to this forum, posted a thread recently about his brother's experience, that even working part-time under the SGA level, was used by the SSA to determine that he was no longer disabled, and resulted in the ending of his benefits. Here is a link to that thread.:http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread157811-2.html

If your son attempted a job, and was unable to keep that job, SSA calls that an Unsuccessful Work Attempt:
http://www.ssa.gov/redbook/2010/ssdi...supports.htm#2

LIT LOVE, I am only disagreeing with two parts again because what we were told. We were told gainful work not about gainful activity. So going to school shouldn't count against disabled people.

I read that shouldn't of happened if he makes under $1000 for SSDI. Appealing is ok but I think he should contact congress person for help. The reason SS is violating there own rules. On Congress person website, there offices can help you deal with social security. You have to fill out a special form to get help.

In my opinion, Social Security shouldn't be allowed to violate there own rules.

Thanks for posting this link LIT LOVE :) I was curious about the CDR process because I'm due up for mine sometime in 2012. This explained it perfectly! Very concise information that didn't leave me looking like :confused:

Shari, I'm glad the link helped! I found it AFTER I had sent my short form and got the notice back that everything was fine. I had no CLUE that the CDR should be treated so seriously.

If (or when) you decide to head back to college, I'm sure it'll be a positive experience. I forgot to mention checking out any of your local colleges free lecture programs as well! Most departments will list what they offer at the beginning of the semester. Cal-tech in Pasadena (of the Rose Parade fame) offers for free to the public, what other schools charge big ticket prices for, as an example. For a tiny college known for churning out rocket scientists, they offer a pretty diverse selection of some the best lecturers in the country. This is another good way to dip your toes into the academic pond...

The question I have is at what point your education becomes an indication of work ability.. I'm in grad school full time, and have the sneaky suspicion that it wouldnt go over well with SSA if I was reviewed right now.. due to this I have to toe a dangerous line.. I'm set for review in 2015, and since I am 'improvement not likely' I will most likely get the CDR short form (which asks what youve been up to for the last two years I believe)..the form asks about what your doing right now - job training/education. which means I have to cease schooling by the end of 2012, the term I plan to graduate

You can handle grad school full time AND you're worried about losing SSD? Even working part-time, you should be able to make substantially more money than you're receiving in benefits. Even teaching 6 hours a week at the community college level in CA, you'd make more money than max SSDI benefits, and that can't be more work than a full time graduate program. And if you needed more flexibility, being an online instuctor might be even more appropriate. You also would have a huge advantage in the hiring process.

Not that you need to justify yourself to a stanger, but the your post surely hints you're trying to work the system. It's hard for me to fathom anyone pursuing an advanced degree without the goal of a specific career.

If you get the long form, you stand a good chance of losing your benefits. Perhaps, you should consider the Ticket To Work program after you graduate which will, in theory, afford you some additional protections. If you can't manage SGA at that point, it'll be a failed work attempt.

LIT LOVE, SSDI could pay more depending on the parents income. What EducatedAsylum is worried about is losing the SSDI not being able to get it back & becoming homeless. Just because you are a full time student, doesn't mean you are not disabled or can do work. I am not referring to schools that let you take a work course that pays yous & gives you credit. He is not working the system. My son could be on the computer 24/7 but that doesn't mean his not disabled. People were certain mental disabilities are really geniuses but because of the disability there are not high IQ & the can't socialize or get along with people or can't hold jobs. They might do good or bad in school.

Someone completing graduate level course work is not the same scenario as your son receiving Voc Rehab training. And again, SS will consider the type of education being pursued as a factor in determining if a disability is ongoing. Someone successfully participating in high level course work will likely be considered to be able to manage sedentary work at the SGA level. The poster acknowledged that if he/she is forced to account for the time period while finishing their degree, that they fear their benefits will be terminated. The questions in the long form CDR will expose the activity.

I attended college, one class a semester, with accomodations, during my application. I knew it would make my approval more difficult, and it did. I can guarantee I would have been denied if I could have managed to attend full time, let alone a full-time graduate program. And the ALJ did try to argue that 3 hours a week in the classroom was an indicator of my being capable of substantial activity. The fact that my coursework didn't require the standard amount of reading and homework expected for college level work, was an important issue.

You're reading parts of SSA's rules and regulations and making assumptions that are incorrect. Moving to Ecudor, for example, will have zero effect on someone's continuing benefits.

You mixing up my postings. The Ecuador part is so my son can be his own payee. He doesn't want a payee. I can see him getting not getting along with his new payee when I die. We don't get along sometimes but he is my son. I will take care of him. I Have told him. When he turns 65, he would be eligible for SSI without being disabled. He could waive his SSDI he will get from his Dad or Me. It might be better for him to do that. He possible could get more help that way. That if he decides stay in the county & still have those programs. Even if they don't, there are still some places that base it on your income.

We were told by a Social Security worker & Vocation Rehab worker, school or training unless paid would never be counted against your disability. Some paid training is excluded by Federal law. However, this was several years ago. I wasn't talking about vocational rehab. Vocational rehab can help you pay for college using the Pell grant.

Just because your disabled, doesn't mean you can't go to school. He actual wants to work but I told him no unless congress messes it up or get a large pay. He has tried to get good paying jobs that pay $14.00 an hour but it requires experience which he has none.

Social Security needs to follow their own rules. They don't even test people correctly. SSI & Some SS, SSDI pay way to low. They need to be raised up more. SS, SSDI or SSI should be raised to above the poverty level per individual not household.

Myself, In my opinion Social Security is violating their own rule by clamming going to school is substantial gainful work. I don't see why the lawyers don't notice this. The ALJ should of notice that to. This is why I said contact the congressmen. Government agencies shouldn't be able to violate their own rules.

It may help people wanting to going to college get the pell grant first. Then it should be much harder for Social Security to stop the payments until the person got a job.

Just a note. I have been reading some different views on the web. I have seen reports where schooling shouldn't count at all and the exact opposite.

One called it Substantial Gainful Income (SGI).

Someone needs to get a hold of the rule book, because they could be denying thousands of people SSDI/SSI that may be eligible if they go to school.

LINK to the Social Security Program Rules Home Page where you'll find SSA's "current program rules include the law; regulations; Commissioner rulings; and, employee operating instructions.":
http://www.ssa.gov/regulations/

If you utilize the insert link button for matters you are discussing it would be appreciated. Vague references are of no help to anyone, and spreading erroneous information that some might accept as legitimate legal advise can potentionally cause harm.

There are two kinds of Continuing Disability Reviews. One is a Work CDR and the other is a Medical CDR. SSDI benefits can be ceased because of either one.

A person may not have any medical recovery, but may be ceased if they have used their Trial Work Period and are engaging inS Substantial Gainful Activity after a Work CDR. For example, a deaf person or a paraplegic person may not have medical recovery, but are holding down a job and are fully earning over the SGA amount for that year. Still medically disabled, but still ceased on SSDI.

On the other hand, a person who has agoraphobia or severe depression may have medical recovery that is evidenced by their ability to attend college full time and do all that is expected of a full time student. That person may be ceased during a medical CDR because they have demonstrated by their daily activities that their disability is no longer severe enough to prevent them from engaging in SGA, even though they are not working. Also, getting a degree or a certification can improve your vocational profile and make you capable of doing a different kind of job than you did before you became disabled. A former ditch digger who graduates from law school may now be able to work even with a bad back.

These examples seem pretty clear to me. If you have other types of conditions, the decision becomes less clear and more muddy. There is no definitive answer to the question of what happens if you go to school.

I didn't pull it out of thin air. Both articles (Sorry, no links) said they were lawyers. You know lawyers do disagree. I am not giving bad advice. I am just repeating what I have read or was told.

There are different terms.
Substantial Gainful Work
Substantial Gainful Activity
Maybe Substantial Gainful Income (That is more ssi, not ssdi)

They can change the rules after you are disabled but if you are grandfather in. They have to go by the old rules. In my sons case, they have to go by the old rules. Otherwise, he wouldn't be getting SSDI.

A lawyer really needs to find out if Social Security Change it from Substantial Gainful Work to Substantial Gainful Activity. If they didn't. There is a good chance for a class action lawsuit.

There is another option. You take classes at home on a computer, that shouldn't be considered Substantial Gainful Activity.

SSA uses the term SGA, Substantial Gainful Activity. This is not new at all. Decades old terminology. There is no change. Here is the definition:
https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0410501001
May want to read the entire chapter.

The Activity does have to be Gainful. So if you are not making any money, you are not performing SGA and can't be ceased because of SGA.

But the ability to do substantial activity all day could mean you have medical improvement and are no longer disabled, no longer incapable of performing Gainful Substantial Activity. Ceased due to medical improvement, as opposed to being ceased due to work.

And for SSI, any income can be used to determine payment. It doesn't have to be substantial. It doesn't even have to be activity related. Any money an SSI recipient gets can be used to determine SSI payments - inheritances, free rent, pensions, wages, gambling winnings, dividends, gifts, etc.

1. Can't waive SSDI and choose SSI. Can't give up an earned benefit in order to get public assistance. SSI will be denied if he makes this choice.

2. Define what you mean about education "counted against your disability". Vocational factors are used at steps 4 and 5 of sequential evaluation of disability. A person who was only able to do unskilled manual labor may become educated enough to be able to do a sedentary job at a desk that pays alot of money. So education can make a person more marketable, more capable of many kinds of work, which can result in a denial or cessation at steps 4 or 5.

3. You disagree with the amount of public assistance (welfare) that is paid by SSI. You change that by voting in legislators who are willing to raise your taxes or take money from other places where it is being spent now. SSDI is based on money paid in payroll taxes. Actuaries predict the system is already unsustainable and many 20 year old believe they will never get a penny. Increasing SSDI will hasten the insolvency. But perhaps you believe SSDI should also been needs based and only paid to people who did not, could not, or would not save their own money. Again, change that by your vote.

4. Social Security does not claim that going to school is substantial gainful work. As I said in another post, SSA uses the term Substantial Gainful Activity. Going to school is not gainful. No change. The other places you looked for answers gave you an incorrect term - substantial gainful work. No such thing in SSA.

When you turn 65, you are eligible for SSI benefits based on income not disability. The mistake was SSI should of put it in his name when he turned 18 or 21.

SSDI should not be needs based. I am talking about ending poverty. No one should be in poverty anywhere. It is kind of sicking the way the U.S. doesn't really help it is citizen. Like for example. Norway. No homeless, No poor. You get help with one program, but it could count against another. AARP, Said Social Security is fine. I am taking about SSI or SSDI raising it up higher so no one will every be in poverty.

If congress mess it up-I am worried that my son will be homeless, it keeps looking that way. I don't think he could handle being homeless. He has had nightmare. I said he is very unsecure.

On the one hand you talk about having him waive benefits (that will convert from SSDI to regular Social Security retirement benefits at 65, so he'll no longer be subjected to Continuing Disability Reviews at that point anyway) and on the the other you're talking about being so concerned about his financial situation that he might become homeless. If you think your son would choose receiving no benefits over having his bills taken care of and receiving an allowance, that in itself shows such poor decision making on his part that it confirms he needs a representative payee.

Janke has provided you solid information, as have others. Since you seem unwilling to believe anything other than your own interpretation of SS's rules and regulations, then the next step would be to make an appointment with either an attorney or a local non profit advocacy service that has extensive Social Security Disability experience and take your son to discuss all the legal questions you both have regarding his disability.

LIT LOVE. You are misunderstand my post, you are twisting them and putting word into them. Please don't do that.

SSI & SSDI are two different programs. He is not eligible to draw on his own. I told him if he really wants to be his own payee. Wait tell he is 65. This way he will still be able get SSI on income only because he wouldn't get SSDI if they determine he is no longer disabled. I also told him other options from reading other post & info from the web.

Moving out of the country would not require a payee. The reason. There are no payee agencies in other countries. Plus a payee in the U.S. couldn't pay bills in the country he living in.

There are locations in the U.S. where there is not a Payee agency close by. He could move to a city, where a payee would create a hardship.

You seem to believe there are only three choices:
1. He becomes his own payee and will be automatically determined not disabled. Wrong. Many, most SSDI recipients do not have payees.
2. He can give up SSDI at age 65 and opt for SSI instead. Wrong.
3. He can leave the US in order to get away from having a payee. He still has to establish that he is capable. If he has this severe mental problem that keeps him from being able to work, just how will he manage in a country in which he doesn't speak the language like a native, have a support system or be comfortable with the culture? Leaving the US doesn't take away the issue of capability. But it would seem to me that if you think he can thrive in Ecuador, it means his disabling mental problems just may not be that bad because he can deal with this kind of major change. Or perhaps your family has been vacationing for years in Ecuador or have extended family.

I am sure there are ways of a person in the US paying bills in another country, especially in this online banking era.

Geography doesn't determine whether or not a person needs a payee. Turning 65 doesn't determine whether or not a person needs a payee.

I am also confused about your statement that he is not eligible to draw on his own. Isn't he currently getting SSDI based on his own earnings? Or are you referring to the payee requirement.

If he is capable of being his own payee now, why are you opposed to it? Why do you not want him to live as indepently as he can and to practice managing money while you are still around to bail him out if he messes up and gets conned or swindled or makes a foolish choice?

I am not saying to waive SSDI. He doesn't get his own SSDI. He was disabled before he was 18. I told him to wait tell his 65 and ask not to have a payee then. Then if they say he can be his own payee but would lose his SSDI. He would have SSI to fall back on. The reason SSI becomes income based at age 65. He did work when his was 16, that not enough to get his own SS or SSDI

Anyone can get conned disabled or not. What a foolish choice to you, may not be a foolish choice to me or him. I already let him manage some of the stuff as I said in other postings. Everyone makes bad choices and still do. Should everyone have a payee because they made foolish or bad choices? No. We both still make bad choices. I buy lottery ticket but don't go overboard. That bad choice for some people. I let him have a credit card, that was a bad choice. I made him close it but still owes on it. I did let him open up a wal-mart credit card, I am going to let him keep that even if it gets upgraded to a discover. So, he can have food while he deals with SS & my estate. He has to tell Wal-mart to keep the credit limit at $1,000 & no higher.

The reason to move to Ecuador the cost of living is very cheaper. Social Security(Not ssi). My main concern, I want him to live a better life. Otherwise, I don't think he would be able to handle it. He is already worried with congress trying to cut this. Not to get political, he changed from independent to mostly democrat. This fall may be his first straight party vote. This is how worried his is & can't get good sleep. Which is not healthily. I am worried too. I did tell him, He & I could also move to another country that gives foreigner a living allowance.

Being able to use a debit card time does not prove he is capable of paying the rent and utilities on time, and making smart decisions about the small amount of money that is left over. Unless he's getting food stamps, or whatever they call it these days, groceries would be an important part of the budget he'd be responsible for.

Why not do a small test. Give him a week's worth of the grocery budget and see what type of choices he makes.

Having a debit card would allow him to withdraw all his benefits in cash for the month, the first day it is deposited. Can you trust him enough to give him the cash for your rent and that he'll get it to your landlord?