Study Shows Cortisol is Vital to Nerve Survival Under Stress
 

I found an article recently entitled "Is Cortisol Good or Bad?" (Byron Richards) while trying to find out why my nerves seem ridiculously sensitive under stress. You've heard the expression "my nerves are shot"; this study perhaps gets closer to the science behind it. It sounds as if it's not just B12 that can be depleted by stress and cause nerve problems.

**edit

The article, from 2008, can be found here:
http://www.wellnessresources.com/hea...d_or_bad/#ref1

It is interesting stuff, and goes along with what I've been posting in other forums about adrenal hormone (cortisol is one of the adrenal hormones involved) "fatigue"/suppression and chronic/intractable pain.

What I'm wondering now (from a few statements in this article) is if there could also be some kind of connection between cortisol suppression/depletion (which I have) and PN(?) Another possible clue/lead to track down.

Thanks for posting it; I learn something every day here. :)

Doc

I wish I could read the original report instead of the other site's summary. I checked your URL and looked on the nature ** search engine for "How Cortiscol Helps You Adapt to Stress" (Nature Neuroscience), but couldn't find it.

In 1997 I went to an endocrinologist. He ordered a cortisol blood test and the reading came back at 1. He said if it had been any lower, I'd be dead.

I don't know if he was right (cortisol testing now is seen as most accurate when it's by saliva testing), but I always remembered what he said.

Since then I have wondered if my cortisol level has been low, because I've had other symptoms of adrenal fatigue, and fail the pupil test. I've also suspected low cortisol has affected or even caused my current peripheral neuropathy, which I didn't have back in the 90s.

It seems to be a vicious cycle. If your cortisol is low, your nerves overheat; that heat/burning causes you more stress, which in turn drives your cortisol even lower.

Sleep is a huge issue when you have chronic adrenal fatigue. My days are horrible when I don't get enough sleep. I've tried to get my adrenal health corrected but the burning wakes me up, and keeps me up. I don't think my adrenal glands will ever heal until I can get enough sleep every night.

One night about a month ago, when I had my worst sleep in years, the PN burning and prickling was the worst I'd ever experienced. I'm gradually becoming more and more convinced of cortisol's importance for nerve health.

My PN began after several years of chronic pain. I'm not quick/ready to conclude cause & effect, nor dismiss it; I will start looking into it further. Coincidentally, some of the supplements recommended in the article (vitamin E, R-Lipoic Acid, grape seed extract, N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC)) are familiar to folks in this forum. I had already been taking NAC, and when I learned of RLA's potential benefits, I started that too, and all of the burning and most of the prickling/shocks ceased within days.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread130991.html
I experienced further improvement after adding pantothenic acid (B5) to the regimen.

I learned about cortisol's (and other adrenal hormones') connection to chronic pain from several articles by Dr. Forest Tennant. As recommended in one of those articles, I had my cortisol levels checked (along with testosterone & pregnenolone). "Adrenal Fatigue" is not recognized by most of the medical community, but "adrenal insufficiency" is, so that was the approach I took with my doctor, as my tests were extremely low in all three. I began supplementing them by taking pregnenolone with B5 (which I was already taking with the RLA) which is converted to all the other adrenal hormones internally.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread156416.html

Since you're on-board with the article you originally posted, you might look into trying RLA & B5 for your PN pain.

Doc

I have a comment, about this link being discussed here.
I find that a rat study, provoking interpretation of memory signalling in the brain of rats, to be very basic and therefore paraphrasing, to say cortisol is a "nerve lubricant" to be simplistic and perhaps a ploy to then entice people to buy the products that website sells.
This is the article from Nature:

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...s/nn.2150.html


The following is from Science News Daily: This common science reporting site, was not credited on the Wellness site at all.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0807072125.htm

This is very very early days for this research. As of now, I don't see references to humans.

This later article, 2011, goes into more detail about memory and cortisol:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0406102137.htm
Basically it is a very fine line with brain studies on what is useful and what is not. The brain is so very complex, it will take a long time to understand why some people do well under some circumstances, and others do not. This applies to drugs as well, since many drugs we have today that affect neurotransmitters, do not work the same in all who take them. On the Tramadol thread here, I put up a paper discussing genetic differences in serotonin transporter activity and the mu receptor (opioid receptor).

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v2.../1395737a.html

yay
 

I don't have time to follow up on any of the links or post anything intelligent (LOL) this AM but I'm all over this one. Dr. Smith, what are the forums re:adrenal supression?
Thanks,
Zygo

"Recent discoveries are furnishing other important clues to the mystery of how the nerves' messages are telegraphed. Actually the nerves 'get hot' while carrying a message said Prof. A.V. Hill, of London University, England. It has even been possible to measure accurately the amount of heat they give off." - Popular Science (Nov. 1929)

The amount of heat my nerves give off is extreme. I virtually burned my hands one day when they were cold and I touched my leg. I could never understand where the heat was coming from because my core temperature is usually low at 96.8F.

I dont if I have it , but I a pretty laconic in general about most things - funnily enough its not until really evening where i " WAKE UP " and I become
more engaged with myself and self aware - but throughout the day im piratically in stasis sometimes.

melon

I searched this concept about nerves giving off heat and found this:

http://scienceblog.com/12738/physici...d-more-likely/

There are heat sensing nerves in the skin as well as cold ones. This article explains that sensations occurring in both may arise along the axon as well as the end points in the skin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21050282

In general heat sensing neurons are over ridden by cold ones. That is why menthol which stimulates the cold sensory neurons, overcomes sensations of heat when applied to the skin. (when no actual cold is present). It is why menthol is included in many pain rubs, and why Biofreeze feels cold when it does not general cold temperature.

Interesting , I personally think their whole idea and insistence on trying to hold onto cherished theories thats part of the problem .

You might like this MrsD, it might explain why you have so many cats :)

Heres another link that challanges the idea of nerves work.




melon

That is a very nice link, melon. Thank you.

I really love our cats now and past. My new kitten Houdini has a very loud purr! He likes to warm up on my chest every day, and he relaxes and shares his energy with me.
Weez sleeps with me most nights, sharing hers. Her purr is very quiet, you have to have your hand on her to know she is purring.
She lies against my side and stays most of the night. I believe she helps me sleep in a less restless way.

I do think pets share their positive energies with us. That is if we treat them kindly and with respect. Oreo, our elderly cat with the suspected cancer is still doing well, and is still active with her new treatment from Vet #4. She has passed her two month expiration, easily, and next will be the 6mo milestone.

So I totally agree that pets, and in my case, cats, but for others any pet really, can further connect us to the life force that frames our world. We just have to open our hearts and minds to them, for it to work! I have photos of my cats in my profile album that illustrates their joy of life, for anyone who wants to share them with me.

In that case, I'm not sure it would be of much help, because those posts all include links to be followed up on as well.

Rather than my trying to find & list them all, it might be easier to do an advanced search for posts by me that include the words adrenal suppression hormone

Doc

I wish I had a cat , I was even glad for the company of seagull I meet in the graveyard of church ( it had nice view ) when i was non-housebound last year . However hes probably cursing me under his beak , because it turns out local Chinese establishment I occasionally went too had been using seagull instead of chicken on the menu !

Heres the link I meant to post that I thought was interesting.

Your cat pics are nice ,maybe I can persuade my landlord to let me have one as I miss animals ( including humans ) sometimes.

melon

Did it really say that? I must have missed that part. I haven't gone back to check, but my impression was that it was talking about nerves "burning up (or out)" figuratively. Sure, electrical impulses travel along nerves, but the amperages, voltages, and impedances/resistances involved are so low as to have little, if any, effect on body temperature. To produce heat electrically, a combination of high voltage/amperage and (especially) impedance/resistance are required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

Body temperature (and changes therein) in endotherms (like humans) is accomplished by chemical reactions - the "burning" (oxidation) of fats & sugars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endotherm

Maybe I didn't sleep through most of high school biolog after all(?) :o

Doc

As skeptical as I am, I'm inclined not to disagree with that. We have an old(er) (1986) book entitled, Dogwatching - by Desmond Morris (Same author also wrote Catwatching, Catlore and a slew of other animal & human behavior books) which attempts to explain the actions and "language" of dogs. I have a couple of shelves of books on dogs, their behavior, psychology, training, etc. but this was the first that popped into my mind for some reason or other.... (ramble, ramble...)

I've been "dogwatching" since long before that - seriously since ~1970 when I got my first dog and spent the bulk of my spare time studying/communing with him.

The last two have been therapy dogs - my therapy dogs, and they keep me going pretty darn well.
http://www.amazon.com/Dogwatching-ot.../dp/0517880555

Doc

Well , they've actually done research in pets abilities to detect things i.e. owners returning before they do , and even the paranormal so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of psychic connection .

Even James Randi had to eat his words over it, though sheldrake is no idiot imo

melon

complicated..
 

I tried to find some information that would clarify some of the ideas here but didn't have much luck so the best I can say is that there does seem to be a trigger somehow between cortisol levels and the pain of PN.

I've been on a steroid inhaler for 7 years that can "rarely" cause adrenal suppression. My pulmonologist likes to 'mushroom' his patients (keep them in the dark and feed them BS) so I can't say for sure I have it, but I've developed weird allergies and apparent asthma, went into hypovolemic shock from the laxative when I had a colonoscopy (eek) and a few weeks later had what appeared to be a convulsion in response to extreme stomach pain. My COPD isn't severe enough to make me that fragile and from what I've read problems in tolerating physical stress are characteristic of adrenal suppression. My body temperature dropped a degree at some point after I started it as well.

I didn't have any PN until I'd been on the meds for 2-3 years and there seems to be a pretty direct linear relationship between the amount of steroid I'm taking and the degree of pain, more drug = more pain. I tried to go off it entirely but couldn't breathe (it can 'worsen' asthma, I think it can GIVE you asthma). I stopped it a couple of times and the first time I restarted it I could feel a burst of burning/prickling in my feet shortly after I took it, and the second time I could actually feel it traveling down my thigh and hitting my feet to cause burning. I don't know if I was feeling nerve transmission or if the sensation was vascular but I felt it. It is known to cause muscle rigidity and stiffness that seems to target the small neck muscles and I also felt a little 'herky-jerky' sensation in my neck that felt like you might think a nerve transmission could and my neck stiffened back up. I don't know if that was nerves or muscles though.

I'm not sure how much of this is relevant to people who may have natural suppression but cortisol levels vary throughout the day and maybe pain could occur when you get a burst and your nerves just don't appreciate too wide of fluctuations. I don't know what is going on with the heat, my feet get hot to the touch too but I thought that was vascular. It does feel like the nerves are revved up and generating heat more than the warmth you get from a hot bath or something. My pain is rarely if ever triggered by a bath, etc, it takes prolonged exposure like hot weather.

I'm not sure if I exactly fit here, but I really admire the people in this forum. I know how much it hurts and you keep on truckin' and trying to learn. '
Zygo

"Take 2 cats and call me in the morning"..

Well, using external steroids, tends to suppress your own adrenal steroid production. There are several steroids in the adrenal cortex.

These are the steroids made in the adrenals:
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks.../steroids.html

It is possible that commercial synthetic steroids suppress ACTH in the pituitary, and hence everything then gets out of whack.

This is what happens with patients taking long term opiates for chronic pain. The hypothalamic/pituitary axis gets suppressed, and the whole adrenal system becomes depressed.

Cortisol is necessary for just about everything. Too much= bad results --elevated blood sugars, and many other nasties.
too little= and all the functions that cortisol supports, suffer.

This is seen in people and other mammals suppressed for long periods, who then have the external steroid discontinued suddenly. They often DIE as a result! That is why people on oral steroids are tapered carefully off, to avoid what is called an adrenal crisis.

I also don't know whether heat is vascular or nerves. I'd done research on hot flashes, and even adipose fat (?) that acts insulation. (The heat seems to get trapped.)

I've done an experiment a few times where I put a cool pad along my spine while I'm trying to sleep. This has taken away the feeling of extreme heat. I got to sleep quickly.

I got the idea from an experiment I found online on dogs where it was determined when you cool their spines, they feel cooler.

What do you think about this has any one tried it ?

melon

This is interesting.... I'll look further into it.

Thanks for posting.

Not sure who your thanking MrsD, but heres another link with more info regarding the Seriphos any way :)

peace

melon

Chronic Pain, With and/or Without Opiates
 

That last sentence sums it up, IMO. I got tested, found out which ones are low, (pregnenolone, cortisol, and testosterone, in my case) and I'm supplementing those in a way as close to the body's natural way as I could find - pregnenolone and B5 - which the body converts to all the other adrenal hormones.

The improvements in the way I feel have, IMO, proven worthwhile. My pain levels are down, emotions under better control, more energy, and just overall feeling "better" than before.

Follow-up testing has been pushed back until after the first of the year; depending on the results, I'll continue what I'm doing, reduce dosage to a much lower maintenance level, and/or address any still-depressed levels more directly. We're trying to take a conservative logical, tailored approach.

Doc

I hadn't thought about the fact I had also been in pain for a couple of years. I don't know if low cortisol could cause PN but that measured, conservative approach to exploring the possiblity is a good way to look at it. I think people vary in what their bodies will tolerate without protest and as they learn more about genetics they may find idiosyncratic causes for a lot of conditions.

They seem to be beginning to acknowledge that the inhaled steroid I am on can cause cortisol depletion. I was on my full dose when I had the adverse events, I thought I might have been moving towards an adrenal crisis as well and carefully tapered down. I saw an article in one of the journals for pulmonary medicine which stated that 'mild deficiencies are common and not considered to be of clinical significance'. That makes me angry, the med I'm on is commonly given to asthmatic children and most of the cases of crisis have occurred in kids. I'm not sure if you have already mentioned it Mrs. D, but it is also listed as one that can cause B12 deficiency.

Neuro, this is pretty low tech and won't work if cold triggers your pain as well, have you ever tried keeping your feet cool? I go barefoot all the time at home and sleep with my feet poking out from under the blankets. I don't like it but it works for me.

Horses have good 'vibes' too, they have had some success with riding programs for autistic kids. Its common knowledge among horse people that a good old horse will take care when ridden by a child. I'm still wondering how the Chinese restaraunt caught the sea gulls...
Zygo

I dont think it would be too hard, some one feeding in front while someone nets them from behind ,pickled seagull used to be dish in these parts a bit like in iceland , I was more interested in stealing all the calamari - which they got really angsty about ( probably because they actually had pay for it ?? ) lol

As it happens I used to use an inhaler years ago for my asthma , but only used it for emergencies - I don't know it was ever factor as I rarely used it.

What I do notice is that my neuropathy seems to coincide with the peak times of Cortisol in the sense its better at night - esp midnight onwards and worse from early morning 7-8 am when it starts to rise. Perhaps this is partly why i stay up late and why mornings are extra bad too given the sleep deprivation is supposed to raise it too cortisol levels too.

melon

I'm trying nowadays to pay attention to symptoms and patterns. I've noticed that the nap followed by tingling in hands and feet is typically followed by heat.

My hands and feet get cold quite often now, so I've been trying to nap lately to get them warm again. It invariably works even if the nap is short.

Anyway, I think it must be vascular, as suggested, at the same time as nerves are affected, or shortly thereafter.

I wonder what cortisol does to/for/with/against B12. Stress of course typically affects cortisol levels and we know stress depletes B12.

Whatever chemical it is that's being released after I nap - I wish I knew what it was. Then I'd take more of it from other sources. The 'tingling' isn't painful or annoying; it's almost comforting. It seems to be related to the body's effort at healing.

I have not yet found a medical reference that shows that "stress" depletes B12.

If you have one I'd like to see it.

There are laymen oriented sites on the net that clump Bcomplex together as helpful for "stress". But I do not think that the B12 in them is adequate for supplementation.

More on B12.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...ns/vitaminB12/

When body parts get cold and then warm up, tingling is typically felt by everyone.

There is a long list of hormones and other substances that are released before, during, and following sleep. Many of them are dependent upon ambient light, which is naturally controlled by sunlight (day and night). This changed significantly only a little over a century ago as electric lighting became common in homes & workplaces, raising havoc, for the first time, with human circadian rhythms. So part of it depends on how you take your naps; time of day, light or dark room, blindfolds, etc. (The amount of light necessary to bring about these changes is small enough to penetrate eyelids; even some/most blind people get enough light somehow to effect these changes).

So even if you knew the list of substances, you would then need to determine which one - or ones in combination - out of dozens (hundreds?) produced the effects you mention.

Messing with these substances is risky unless there is a legitimate medical need/reason to supplement them artificially, and even then there are still risks attached - as with anything we take in - there's an equation of benefit vs. risk that needs to be addressed. There are LOTS of natural substances & hormones that we could take artificially that would make us "feel" better/good. Some athletes do it for "performance enhancement", and as with street drugs (and some of the hormones athletes take are now considered street drugs) these substances make the takers feel great at first, and then the hell (and problems) begins....

For example, endorphins (a.k.a. "endogenous morphine") are opioid-like hormones that can make us feel better in a lot of ways, and have many useful functions when released naturally/normally, but too much of them can result in depersonalization disorder, and sudden cessation is believed to play a part in postpartal depression/psychosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin

Messing with these substances and their delicate balance requires a lot of research, testing, and monitoring, and should only be considered when there is proven medical need and guidance/supervision. The same can be said for many of the supplements and natural substances marketed online and elsewhere. Natural ≠ safe.

Doc

Doc

Haven't been able to look into it very much as computer is gimpy, google
cortisol and microphage migration inhibitory factor. Kind of hard to understand the biochemistry and I'm not sure if I have it all straight but it stated cortisol stimulates MMIF which is a cytokine that intensifies pain and was said to eventually override the pain killing effects of cortisol. I wondered if the pain and stress of PN stimulated cortisol and the resulting MMIF stayed around longer when cortisol levels dropped, caused more pain which again stimulated cortisol which again stimulated MMIF. I don't know if I have it all straight at this point or if its is too complicated for us to understand anyhow.
Zygo

I am now exploring endocrine disorders relating to PN. The US govt website says:

"Systemic diseases — disorders that affect the entire body — often cause peripheral neuropathy. These disorders may include: Metabolic and endocrine disorders. Nerve tissues are highly vulnerable to damage from diseases that impair the body's ability to transform nutrients into energy, process waste products, or manufacture the substances that make up living tissue."

I've had chronic fatigue for a long time and suspect adrenal sufficiency. (I never have reserves for a crisis.) I don't know if you need a disease per se, as the article suggests, to get PN, or simply any kind of endocrine weakness that is systemic and/or chronic.

I wonder how common PN is with those who have CFS.

Since Magnesium and Taurine deficiency both impair the body's ability to transform nutrients into energy, presumably deficiency in one or especially both can lead to PN.

Stress, which is a common known cause of PN, incidentally, depletes Mg. Lack of meat in your diet can deplete Taurine.

I used to have a lot of stress and have not eaten much meat since 1999.