R-Lipoic Acid
 

Hi Everyone, I started R-lipoic acid today. I have Doctor's Best stabilized 100mg. I want to be sure that is right. Mrs D. I read the RLA site and I saw that you said yours is 250mgs so I am wondering if I have the right dose. Also, you mentioned in my other post that I am starting to sound lik lupus. My rheumo just told me at my last appt that he would not be surprised if eventually I tested + for lupus. I had a sister who had a severe case of RA and her lupus levels were always high. She never got an actual dx of lupus though. We'll see.
Any infor on R-Lipoic that I should know would be appreciated. Thanks everyone!:hug:

Yours is the right one.

Take the 100mg in the morning on an empty stomach and see how that goes. This is not going to phase lupus much...but it may help any nerves affected. It is not a quick fix. It will take time.

If you tolerate the 100mg well, you can try adding 100mg later in the day.

I found taking 200mg all at once too much for me. But spaced out later in the day, I don't get hyper at all. I took one last night and slept well.

have been researching both ALA and RLA
some amazing benefits outside of PN as well

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ala.htm

improval of physique
Combats free radicals
Protects our genetic material
Slows aging
Protects against heart disease
Protects against cancer
Improves skin and helps erase wrinkles
Regulates blood sugar in diabetics
Protects the liver
May be used as a treatment for Stroke

Yes, ALA is important for everyone. For nerve healing it is usually a high dose.

One does not need a "high"dose if using the new improved version "stabilized", which is rapidly and well absorbed. 100mg a day is enough for most people. Don't try and take the "high" dose of this, that corresponds to the racemic older ALA version.

ALA the original racemic mixture requires high dose (600mg -1800mg) a day.

Take both versions on an empty stomach for best results.

This article is okay to a point. It does not explain the differences between ALA (racemic), R-lipoic (not stabilized as the sodium salt) and R-lipoic stablized, sodium salt.

Dosing is different with the different forms. But one thing remains... take on an empty stomach for best absorption.

So it is important to read your labels, carefully, to see which you have.

This list from Wiki is similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoic_acid

Most of the literature--
 

--that has come out of Europe, particularly Germany, about alpha-lipoic acid (which is a prescription substance in most countries there), has been about its use in controlling blood sugar in diabetics, with easing of peripheral neruopathy symptoms a secondary benefit.

These articles usually mention a dosage in the neighborhood of 1200-1800mg/day, a little high to take in pill form--in many of these studies that administration was intravenous.

There is not as much literature out there on R-lipoic--much of that reporting is anecdotal and comes from North America. And one has to be careful just who is reporting it--often it comes from manufacturers with a stake in selling it. Still, it does seem to have decent effectiveness, and usually, a ratio somewhere in the range of 10:1 to 6:1 is cited; one can take between 1/6 and 1/10 the amount of R-lipoic as alpha-lipoic for a similar effect.

I suspect we'll see more actual studies on R-lipoic in the future as it becomes more pervasively offered.

This is an example of the "manufacturer" submitted bioavailability study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...-lipoic%20acid

This is unique I think, as other nutrient investigations typically measure patient response for "effectiveness".

There are some small studies on ALA on PubMed too.

Magnesium studies in bioavailability are new too.

There is also one study on B12 bioavailability ..I have quoted on the B12 sticky. One researcher actually measured the amount in micrograms absorbed from an oral 1000mcg dose daily.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...able/T1/#TF1-4

Bioavailability is a concept that has to be proven for RX medications to the FDA for approval. It has not been applied until recently to nutrients, because of expense doing the studies, etc.

Some products that are used in studies themselves, have to prove
stability, and consistent absorption levels. An example of this is curcumin...which typically is not well absorbed. Some products like LongVida Curcumin have done bioavailability studies for this reason.

Just be careful in your dosing, when using the new R-lipoic... it just doesn't need those high ALA doses because of its chemical differences.

Each doctor will know about the dose needed for each person if they do know about neuropathy and the supplements.

Let's hope we continue to be free to buy our own supplements here. LEF and Alliance for Health have been wonderful keeping Americans informed about the FDA overreaching.

RLA and ALA taken together?

There is a bit of uncertainty on the web regarding RLA effective dosage.

Any thoughts on taking these 2 together, say 600 ala / 100 rla
couldnt hurt ?

I take the ALA MAX cr (Xymogen brand) in the morning. It is 600mg, slow release. Later in the afteroon about 7 hours later, I take about 150-300mg of another brand. It can make me alert at night, so that is why I don't take at night.

As I understand it (subject to correction by the resident chemists), ALA consists of 2 versions of the molecule - a righthanded (R) and lefthanded (S).
Why the ratio comes out around 1:6 instead of 1:1, I have no idea unless perhaps the normal ratio of synthesizing ALA is 1:6.

Taking the two probably couldn't hurt, but it would be the same as taking 200 mg of RLA.

Doc

Regular RLA is not well absorbed we are learning.

If you mean RALA (the sodium stabilized variety)...they claim much higher absorption.

Of course measuring it in the serum of the blood, is only a general thing ... the lipoic acid whatever version, will get sucked up into the tissues, and not be in the serum anymore after a short time. I have not seen any test that reveals tissue levels.

I've seen serum levels duration for RALA at 2-3 hrs, and racemic mixed ALA delayed release at 4-6 hrs (from one study). Once the lipoic acid is in the tissue, that is all that matters because that is where it works, in the cells themselves.

There are some sites on the net that claim the inactive S version works against the R... but there is no proof of that.
Also one study on racemic showed lowering of thyroid hormones in rats. No studies yet on humans. No study for R only either.

So there remains some facts still missing. All you can do is watch your responses. I have noticed for myself, less cold intolerance this winter...than last. So perhaps that is from the lipoic I am using now. (Doctor's Best Stablized R)

Mrs. D
 

I know you and I have a tendency to get a bit hyper when taking R-Lipoic and had reduced the mg's to 100mg a day. Are you now just dividing the dose and taking the R-Lipoic twice a day or just doing this occasionally?

(Gerry)

Yes, it is working divided up. Some afternoons I forget to take it...but I am averaging 5 times a week so far. I don't get that tense thing when dividing the dose over the day. I take it around 4pm way before dinner.

My biggest problem has been sleeping and pain. I tried Elavil in 10mg dose, and it seemed to work for a week, then stopped...then my blood sugar went up..and I found that some new studies show effects on blood sugar for diabetics (due to some neuroendocrine thing--unexplained further). So I stopped it and my sleeping became broken again.

Now I am doing L-tryptophan again, and I have to say...it is really nicely working. People on SSRIs or things like Cymbalta cannot do this, but since I am not medicated that way, and it has been over a month on Elavil for one week...I can safely do it. I had a bottle left over from last year of 500mg NOW brand. I finished that off and replaced it with Doctor's Best...and wouldn't you know it! It is dynamite! This is the 3rd supplement I've found better at Doctor's Best. Theanine, from Swanson's was disappointing, and now the R-lipoic, and tryptophan. The kitten and Weezie make alot of noise at night playing sometimes, and it also wakes hubby up. So we both are using the tryptophan with great success. In fact we even got equal hangovers from the new one! So I am breaking them in 1/2 so we get 250mg each. I have some empty taurine caps from Oreo which I saved and that is how I do it, for now.

My observations following a week of taking Doctores best RLA 200mg(suspended) and Acetyl L - Carnite 1000mg

Initially spaced out and hyper similar to lots of coffee, this has now abated.

The biggest change is the clearing of my brain fog. I was still having embarrassing moments of word recall and strange noises replacing words and to be honest this was starting to worry me. That has stopped also and Im very clear headed but will wait to see how it goes a few months down the track as Im skeptical that these supplements have helped so much in just 7 days , however Im not skeptical that the ALA (now switched to RLA) has helped immensely with the burning.

p.s is 1000 mg of the Acetyl L - Carnite the correct dose?

I agree. Both are great for the brain. With CFS and POTS, fog can be a problem. No problem at all now. I take one teaspoon of CarniClear. That is 2.5 grams.

Well, you know I believe the correct dose is the smallest dose required to obtain the desired results, but ya gotta start titrating from someplace. 1000 mg (500 twice a day) is what I was taking. I recall getting that figure from someplace here and elsewhere on the web.

Doc

When taking together, it is difficult to know which is doing what.

For me the acetyl carnitine seems to affect muscles more. It improves stamina for me. I used to use a gram a day when working out. When not working out 250mg is enough most days for me.

The RALA seems to do things in the brain and improve cognition and alertness.

If you stop the carnitine for a week or so, you might notice what it is doing for you. Carnitine is basically easily to tolerate, and the expense is what most people don't like about it. So keeping it as low as possible, helps with cash outlay issues. It has limited absorption in the GI tract so divide up large doses. If taken all at once, it may mostly be wasted.

My arthritis is flaring up this week, and that clouds my PN issues quite a bit. I don't know if it was a weather trigger or a mild viral attack of some kind. Today I seem better though. I've been on magnets and Aleve for most of the week. Also hitting the magnesium lotion more heavily too.

I've been taking my R-lipoic--
 

--in one dose of 100mg in the morning.

I haven't noticed any "charged up" feeling or effect, but I'm pretty charged up in the morning anyway; I've always been a morning person (notice when most of these posts get made).

I'm thinking of getting some 50mg bottles next time, though, and taking one in the morning and one in the evening. I do have some problems at times with feeling sleepy early in the evening, especially during the short days of winter, and especially if a large evening meal is consumed--I've assumed this is part of my insulin resistance/reactive hypoglycemia, as well as having a seasonal component. I can easily overcome the feeling if I have an evening tutoring appointment or something, but it may be worth the experiment with the R-lipoic.

I wonder why some of us get so charged up on the RALA?

That fast absorption must go to the brain quickly..etc.

My evening dose doesn't seem to do it as much as the morning one. Maybe I am just getting used to it, too. I started at 50mg, back when, because of it, in fact.

Well I have cut my supplements in half after i realized I was sitting in the recliner bug eyed in perpetual anticipation that something big is about to happen
Then it doesn't

Many dont anticipate how powerful some supplements can be. Here is a quick story of a personal experience.

My girl friend had taken in a new flat mate who appeared totally normal and well adjusted until she started acting strange. She was convinced there were ghosts in the house and thought I was bringing them in :rolleyes:

to make her happy I allowed her to perform a sort of exorcism which required her pushing down hard on my stomach and forcing whatever evil spirit was in me to the outside.

By now my girlf friend was getting a bit frightened .

During the night My G/F went to go to the bathroom but something was obstructing the bedroom door. It was the flatmate lying in the hall surrounded by candles at 2am ( hard to imagine i know ), well now I was starting to get scared myself so we called her family who took her to the nearby hospital because she was Babbling and hallucinating

She ended up in the psychiatric ward and after much investigation they found the culprit......Chinese medicine/herbs! turns out she misread the dose and was taking 10 x what she should.

After she stopped the herbs she returned to normal.

If I hadn't witnessed it myself i never would have believed how powerful supplements can be.

Wow, you have to be responsible. Natural meds are the first medicines. They work.

They certainly do. I guess its no different to eating to many hash or marijuana cookies which could also bring on hallucination

We still have a good laugh about that night though :D

Glad all turned out ok! :)

supplements
 

I would be more worried about the drugs a doctor prescribes, and the dosages recommended on over the counter drugs. Particularly those for pain. When it says you can take 2 pills every four hours, many folks blindly do that and then they will always need that high dose. Not to mention the organ damage, but somehow we have changed the subject.

I have begun taking the stabilized R Lipoic one pill on the empty stomach as recommended.

You bring up an excellent point, stillfighting!

Dr. Jay Cohen, believes that many drugs are used in too high of doses. In fact he thinks the drug companies patent high doses on purpose! It is in his cholesterol book and also on his website in
shorter version...

He has a new book out on the subject too!
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...Over-Dose.html

For example, Crestor, which is typically given in doses of 10mg and above....works in 1mg doses. There is a new PubMed article on 5mg Crestor given once or twice a WEEK as working!
So this new paper from 2012 illustrates that much less Crestor works as well as high dose (with its toxicity profile risks).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22256801

I find that 1/2 of a tramadol 50mg works for me most nights in fact! That is 25mg... I don't take it every day, so I have not tolerance to it yet.

That sounds like it could also be just melatonin. That would account for the seasonal change as daylight shortens and the large meals containing more tryptophan (and other enzymes).
Doc

I've been saying that for some time (long before these examples), but phrased slightly differently:
I won't argue that this has been intentional, and even misleading, in some cases, like the highly publicized Oxycontin case,
but I think it more likely began in the attempt to find average dosing recommendations for doctors who aren't well-versed in pharmacology.

Doc

Ok, I started the new improved fancy-schmancy "stabilized" RLA this week. The plan was to wait until I had used up current supplies of the old-fashioned unimproved unstable (does that mean it's explosive? :rolleyes: ) flavor, but after discussions with DW it was decided I'd take the new one in the morning and the old one in the evening (in case there is some kind of "speed" factor...)

When I started the regular old flavor RLA (about a year ago), I got phenomenal results in just 48 hours. So far, I've been on the new regimen for about 72 hours, and haven't noticed anything at all... No biggie - it's probly too soon, and I shouldn't/wouldn't (but could! :D ) expect lightning to strike twice...

Got back on B5 after an unintended month off and noticed a significant difference in just a few days, but this is the wrong forum for that...

Doc