Does anyone know about TOO MUCH vitamin B?
 

Hi all, I'm sorry I haven't been back to the forum in a while. I was having some blood tests so I stopped my vitamins. And I started to feel better.

I have noticed this for the past 3 years. Only now am I really thinking it is a connection. I remember numerous times sitting outside in the front yard telling my husband that I had stopped my vitamins (whole food supplements, vitamin Bs or magnesium w/added B6) and that every time I stopped I started to feel better. At some point I would think I was being stupid or really needed these supplements because I have so much body pain... diagnosed as autoimmune and fibromyalgia... so of course I must need these supplements! I would start them again. And a couple of months later, stop... because I wasn't feeling good. Well, this has happened again. I stopped my vitamins and supplements a couple months ago for complete blood testing, including vit B12 and vit B6. I got a call from the lab, and of course they LOST my blood sample for the B6 so I had to go in again. So I received all my tests for everything except the B6.

As I was waiting, my neuropathy was getting better. I wasn't cold or numb all the time. My toes improved (but did not go back to normal - freakish reddish toenail outline and pain). Then, a couple weeks ago, I started some multi vitamin B and some folic acid. Plus vit C, my MOUTH had started to get sore. And my tongue is sore at night. Feels like I have sores, but don't see them. It is mostly underneath my tongue. After taking these vitamins for only a couple of days, my*feet started getting worse. Worse around the toenails and NUMB starting again. How can the vitamin that supposedly is water soluble and flushes out if you don't need it cause this? I was going to buy vitamins online but I can't figure out these symptoms. Worse when I take vitamins, better when I don't. Yet I have these issues that would make taking vitamins make sense.

Do you have any suggestions? I was thinking it was vitamin B6. And my B12 test came back normal. Could I have some weird problem with these? Is that possible?

On a side note, I have talked to my doctors about vitamins, and I get the same answers mostly... don't worry about taking too much. Or... your tests are fine. You don't need anything. Or... you don't need magnesium if you have a good diet. To which I always want to reply... but most US diets are not necessarily GOOD anymore. I do not believe I eat the right things, however, allergy dieting has not shown any improvements.

So can someone absorb too much B6 without taking the supplements? Can someone have a deficiency where they can't absorb it properly? This is so weird, and even the whole foods store owners keep telling me to take these vitamins with B6 in them. :confused:

Some people cannot activate pyridoxine to pyridoxal in the body.
So the pyridoxine builds up.

The same goes for folic acid. The error for folate is called MTHFR polymorphism. There is considerable folic acid in foods today in the US. Fortified foods. And there are some papers out there now, describing how synthetic folic acid my block the activity of natural folates at the blood brain barrier. Karsten sent me this paper about that:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/87/3/517.long

Too much Vit C can cause increased acid in the blood, but this is temporary for the most part. Using an Ester C avoids that.
But Vit C is necessary for good gums and oral mucosa health.

People can all vary considerably metabolically depending on their genetics.

If vitamins bother you in some way, I'd take that as a sign to not use any. You can get your magnesium by soaking in epsom salts or using a lotion containing magnesium.

Did your doctor tell you the numbers for the B12? or just "normal"? I'd get the numbers if you don't have them. Very low levels show up "normal" on the old lab ranges in US still.
You should be at 400 at least, and preferably higher.

Vit B6 can cause neuropathy. I have problems with too much of that vit. so I am very careful with that but the others are great. B12, and Benfotiamine Fat/water soluble b1) are great.

Vit B6
 

I have been taking the methyl B12, as well as Benfotiamine. I had purchased the Vit B6 about the same time; but had read some things that cause concern, so I did not take them.

I had my B12 tested August, 2011, as well as my B6. The range for the B12 was 211 -946. My results were 922. My B6 has a range of 2.0 - 32.8. My results were 54.1. After seeing, I was high in the B6, really made up my mind not to take any Vit. B6.

Appriciate your mentioning Vit B6 may cause neuropathy. Don't know if this has anything to do with my case because I also had spine fusion/laminectomy 5 1/2 years ago. Associated that as the probable cause since things were bad and then the burning did become worse after Bladder surgery and taking the antibiotic Levaquin 500 mg's for 14 days.

Regardless, glad I decided not to take the Vit B6.

Gerry

I think Levequin was a problem for me too. :(

B6 is needed, but not too much or it can cause problems.

There have been cases--
 

--though sporadic--of neuropathic symptoms resulting from too much B6 in the serum (referred to as pyridoxine intoxication). Usually, these have occurred in those who have really megadosed--on the order of 200mg up to a gram each day.

As Mrs. D notes, though, this seems to be associated with a genetic inability to chemically reduce pyridoxine to the active pyridoxal form. This genetic profile seems to be associated more with certain other conditions (autism for one), although certainly no causality has been established yet. For those who suspect this, taking the already activated P-5-P form of B6 seems to help; to my knowledge, there have been no reports of these symptoms on large doses of P-5-P.

The Useful Websites section of our Vitamins/Minerals/Supplements Board has a significant section about this:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread30724.html

Glenn
 

Read much of the above thread. Still not sure about P 5-P. Does my being a bit high in the B6 (54.1)( range 2.0 -32.8) have anything to do with not converting my B6. Does this mean that it would be good for me to take
P 5-P?
As always, thanks for your input.

(Gerry)

Mrs. D
 

I read thru much of the thread Glenn had suggested. I noticed you mentioned drinking Kefir. Would you please explain what this drink does and the benefits?
Thank you,
Gerry

If you eat meat and other foods with pyridoxal/pyridoxine in them, you shouldn't need B6. It can be in your cereal, even.

If you test high, I would not use any unless you have symptoms of deficiency.

This link has deficiency symptoms:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...ins/vitaminB6/

Kefir normalizes the bowel flora which may be damaged from
antibiotics and/or inflammation.

For women it can help female discomforts too, over time, like yogurt is supposed to do. That whole area "down there" is linked and improving the bowel flora improves all the membranes there.

I've eaten yogurt for years. It did nothing like Kefir did for me!

There are some medical sites claiming that 70% of human illness links to the GI tract and that restoring this balance is necessary for normal immune functions and nutrient absorption.

For general well being and improvement of nutrient absorption, I think Kefir is well worth it. It doesn't cost alot of money and tastes good if you get the flavored ones.

Mrs. D,
 

Is Kefir found in local grocery stores? I have had Cystocele surgery about three and half years ago and about two years ago had Rectocele surgery. The Rectocele is coming back and is in the early returning stages. Many problems in "those" areas.

Gerry

Their website should direct you.

We have it now at Kroger's and Costco here.
http://www.lifeway.net/

They have a coupon you can get once a month on that site too.

I've been doing my CE all month and today, I had PROBIOTICS!

How timely.

The kefir from Lifeway has about the same organisms as the
preferred product, VSL #3 which is recommended by doctors.

http://www.vsl3.com/

The Kefir has more strains than VSL#3 however, and is off by one of the strains (not included).

This is a short list of what they do:
from http://www.powerpak.com/course/content/108027
(not sure you can access this site, but I will put the link in anyway.)

BTW the inducing cytokines in the GI wall is beneficial.. they are protective. Cytokines elsewhere may be inflammatory. But in the GI tract they are a barrier to invasion.

All very good information! If I were to have the problem with B6, how would I go about finding out? Is there a test I can ask for or is there a certain kind of doctor who is more inclined to check this stuff out seriously? Most doctors I've talked to don't know anything about vitamins.

I've also noticed in the past couple of months (since I've stopped my vitamins completely) that my mouth is sore. Under the tongue, including THE spot where my wisdom tooth hole was. The wisdom area is white colored. The tongue feels burned or as if I have cankers but mostly at night. I have felt slight soreness on the roof of my mouth too. My gums have always gotten sore too - now and in the past. I always think I have gingivitis but the dentists never seem to see much of a problem except some recession.

My ideas about this are: reaction to elavil, causing dry mouth - although it's always better in the morning. One time I bit the pill in half and my whole tongue went numb immediately. I also have autoimmune and get very dry everywhere. So questioning addition of sjogren's.

Vitamin deficiency.

Mineral deficiency.

Basic nutritional problem.

I am going to make a dentist appt. next week, even though a couple of months ago I had my regular 6-month cleaning and had the mouth cancer check with the swish and glow light.

I started vitamins last week and every time I take vitamins (multi B) my feet get cold.

Yesterday and today I did something different. I only took methyl B12, Ester C and D3 yesterday, and then today I added zinc. My feet are not cold tonight and my mouth feels better. Can there be any link to the vitamin change that fast? (BTW in my whole history I have never taken a zinc vitamin - only multis).

One more thing, I do not believe I have a gut issue. I used to, and was told I had leaky gut by someone who did a finger prick, and I started morning shakes with fiber and took L-glutamine and I swear it fixed it. My stomach seems very good to me. Can I have an absorption problem without an obvious gut issue?

you can grow your own if you are not a negligent mother like me :)

i was given a baby kefir which looks like a dried out bit of cauliflower.
it sits in milke and growns and once a day you tip off the milk and drink/ put on cereal or whatever

it is ages since i had my plant so the finer details of it i forget.

i made mine with skim milk powder mixed in water.
worked for me . it is sort of an aquired taste and i liked it... but got forgetful of the plants welfare.:o

when the plant grows to a certain size you can take off bits and give to friends. i know of some that were posted from here in australia to the USA and survived the trip and customs inspections.
that was 10 years ago

you can buy the baby at a health food store i am told

good stuff

DD

Vitamin C is essential to oral health. Without it the gums bleed and the mucosa does not restore as fast.

Much of scurvy (lack of Vit C), is loss of teeth!

Sore white areas of the mouth might be thrush (Candida). Should have a doctor look at that. Thrush in the mouth is a signal that most likely it is in the entire GI tract as well.
It can come from poor immune function, or after the use of
antibiotics. People with poor sugar control also get it.

Oral Thrush - I asked my dentist about it extensively at my last cleaning (in Jan) because I have one white spot on the left side of my tongue. (And a very small in identical place on right). She looked closely and told me I do NOT have an oral yeast infection. I have been questioning this though, because of my history - recurring female yeast infections. My hormone doc is having me do a detox and was suggesting we do a metal test until I mentioned (for the second time) that I was not using birth control.

I did not notice this white spot until AFTER this past summer when I used amoxicillan for my wisdom tooth extraction. After which my feet started with their problems.

My dentist said it was a normal thing on the tongue. But... now my mouth is having these symptoms. The white spots are in specific locations though. In the back of the mouth, it feels like an ulcer/canker but it is directly on the "hole" where my tooth was.

Under the tongue on mirror sides, I see white color. It is hard to see, but is mirrored on each side and I have most of my sore-like feelings under the tongue. I do not have a "coating" on my tongue. I do think I have a "geographic tongue." My tongue is ALWAYS hairy and gets dark on top in a pattern if I drink dark liquids like wine or juice.

I also have the autoimmune and believe I have dedydration problems, which can cause white spots on tongue.

My tongue gets worse later in the day or at night. Just like my neuropathy.

I'm having a hard time believing this is thrush or yeast but if it is then maybe that is what is making my toenail areas red and painful. And causing the female issues.

I have so many issues I can't pinpoint even where to begin looking.

All my thoughts: candida, autoimmune (but why), food intolerance, vitamin deficiency, I could have any one of these. Even latex allergy. If I put on hanes socks (that contain latex) my feet get crazy. But my No Nonsense socks don't list latex and they feel the best.

Mrs.D, yesterday your "favorite doctor," Dr. Oz, praised Kefir and held up a carton--but it wasn't Lifeway--told his audience how great it was for the G.I.
track.

I bet his producers read here. I wouldn't be surprised!

I stopped watching his show, it was too aggravating for me.

He contradicts himself often in the SAME show, makes huge errors, and is really guilty of ERROR BY OMISSION!

He is tiptoeing around doctors and advertisers, and will not
tell the audience what they really need to know about most supplements. Thinking they will be forced to go to their doctors, who for the most part know very little about these subjects.

And he is making a ton of money doing this. And I am a volunteer. The last show I saw was the Deepak Chopra one
with Andrew Weil... They are such experts and the show was totally mega LAME! I just can't stand it anymore. I used to watch here and there...but not anymore! SIGH.....groan.

Is this a possibility.

http://byebyedoctor.com/leukoplakia/

I was very interested with this description of leukoplakia.
Every time in the past year that I have read a description that mentions HIV, I have been worried, just because a lot of these descriptions are similar to what I describe. But I tested negative for HIV in 2007, and then recently in January I retested just to make sure, and I tested negative. Since I have been with only one person in the past 5 plus years I am definite that I do not have HIV. But I have wondered extensively about what's going on with my tongue. I do like wine. And I seem to have geographic tongue.

I just went to the dentist last week for this problem, and then also went to an ENT. My white spots are "normal" and I do NOT have thrush or yeast in the mouth. Both dentist and ENT have assured me that I do not have any yeast and both have said my tongue looks completely normal. The dentist said I have a swollen submandibular salivary gland. That it was hard and should be checked by an oral surgeon. The oral surgeon he referred me to said on the phone that he would most likely just send me to an ENT. So I just went to the ENT. He checked my mouth and saliva out and stuck the scope down my nose and throat and said everything looks normal, he didn't see anything cancerous and that he believed whatever is going on is caused by my autoimmune disease and he prescribed me a week-long medrol/sterioid pack. My biggest problem with this is that EVERY doctor I see states my problems are due to my autoimmune disorder and truthfully this is always stated as soon as I say I have an autoimmune disorder.

But I really do feel a lump under that side of my tongue where the DENTIST said my submandibular gland is swollen. I have felt it for quite a while, just thought it was a sore or something.

So do I take the sterioid? Interesting thing is that the very night after I saw the ENT, (and $400 later) I went to a restaurant/bar. While I was telling the bartender that wine caused my gums to swell, and telling her a shortened version of everything, a lady who was having a conversation with her boyfriend suddenly stopped, looked at me and said... it sounds like a submandibular salivary gland. I had the same thing and the doctors don't know what it is! It took over a year for them to figure it out, by that time I needed surgery to remove the gland... She said her dentist and oral surgeon figured it out and it's been fixed ever since. She showed me the scar from having the gland removed. It was weird because what she said matched exactly. And just before going out I had done my research and read about salivary/submanibular glands, how ENTS don't always notice them, and how they develop stones. The lady mentioned a stone and sucking on a lemondrop... and she described exactly what I feel...

so do I go back to the dentist or go to the oral surgeon (I'll go to the one she referred me to). Or do I take the steroid to see if that helps with anything (including my red/painful toes STILL going on).

I think fate brought me to the bar - it was the weirdest thing.

Oh, I caught a bit of Dr. Oz, on Weds, channel surfing during the day.
It was a terrible show. He had on some "expert" who said to avoid dairy. :rolleyes::rolleyes: There goes the Kefir! Then they had all the foods with dairy in them, and guess what--it was EVERYTHING! Something to do with allergy to dairy and weight gain. Well, if someone is suspecting an allergy to dairy, they should get testing for that. But just avoiding dairy to lose some weight is not good advice. Dairy can be helpful for some people.

The show itself was sooooo lame. I felt like spanking myself for being lured in, but you know, I do check now and then out of curiosity to see if there is any improvement, and it seems hopeless to me! I find myself talking to the TV when Dr. Oz is on and this drives my hubby crazy! LOL Wednesday he was showing how to stop a bloody nose, and had one of his toys made up there, and GAD...it spewed red "blood" for 10 minutes and he couldn't shut it off! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

When I was feeling my worst, back in November I guess, I was losing weight. I was at my lowest in a number of years. Now, I have felt better PN-wise and have gained about 10 lbs since Nov. Not sure if that is because of my thyroid/progesterone treatment or just because I have felt better overall. But the mouth thing I'm experiencing has kind of changed the way I've been in the last couple weeks. My appetite may be a bit lower again.

I know what you mean, about the show. I see a lot of shows focus on things like weight loss, especially the popular afternoon shows... our local channel has a doc that talks every day about something, and it always seems to focus on something like weight loss or dieting, but often I have already seen or read many things about that subject, and I just never feel that the conversation ever touches on ENOUGH of that subject. I always notice that the coverage tends to tell people why they should ask their doctor, and I can't stand it because I have ALREADY asked my doctor. And the answers are never detailed enough for my satisfaction.

Interesting. Here is a site which you have probably seen.

http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/gui...ses-treatments

I had read about these before. Not sure that all dentists understand this. Hopefully, you will get to the bottom of it.

I guess I should consider myself lucky--I've had to help my daughter with her chore of getting the kids to their various activities after school so I've missed his show all week. His main focus all year has been weight loss--he's got a partnership with Weight Watchers going across the country.

One other thing there I noticed, and it was rather revealing.
When his dairy guy came on, Oz jumped up to do the fancy graphic he had on the back wall. He stood very close to it waved his arms alot and literally babbled. He made little if any sense at all. It was very revealing, and confirmed what I have been thinking that he really doesn't have the knowledge base for this show. Everything he does is dumbed down, and not for the viewers, who today I think are pretty with it....it is dumbed down because of HIM. That is just my opinion, and becoming more solidified every day in fact! :rolleyes:

I'm going to try to resurrect this old thread in hopes of finding out from Geraldine whether eliminating all B vitamins except B12 continued to yield positive results. Geraldine, if you are still around, did you keep up the experiment with B vitamins and/or discover anything else about how they influence your PN?

I have this theory that possibly too much B12 might even cause PN, though I have been afraid to test it out. But it wasn't until the early 1980s that researchers discovered B6 toxicity. I am wondering whether elevated B12 could have a similar effect that has yet to be discovered.

If this has any merit, I had a B12 around 1200 when tested, while taking a supplement. I knew it would come back high with that in mind. My neurologist said simply, "You don't need the vitamin". He didn't see much in reports that said it helped regrow the myelin sheathe that i had mentioned to him. He seemed adamant that I stop. He is a guy that says getting nutrients from food is always preferable to a supp. He was big on CoQ10 and R-ALA for treatment but nothing else.

Patrick, that's interesting. Seems a lot of people's doctors have told them they don't need to take B12 after seeing their labs come back high, which makes sense. However, there's no doubt, and you would think all docs would be well aware, of B12's essential role in generating myelin! My level was 800+ and above 1000 the two times I tested.

I think most neurologists mentality is, lets find the cause, if we can't find the cause, lets treat the cause. SO the big three drugs are tried Gabapentin, Lyrica, Cymbalta. They don't work and its on to heavy duty meds or a combination of meds. They rarely ever mention supplements or dietary changes. Which I believe are key.

Absolutely, diet and supplements are key. It's tragic when doctors just want to mask symptoms.