NUCCA making me worse? (questionable)
 

I'm not entirely sure if its the truth or not...but hear
me out.

In the middle of February, I started getting NUCCA
adjustments. I honestly felt it was making things
better for me. Then, at the end of February,
the doctor told me that my adjustments were
starting to hold. Right after she said that, I woke up
the next day and everything was worse than its ever
been. I went to the ER three times in one week
because I couldn't think straight at all, my speech
was horrible and I could hardly take care of myself.
Well, about 3-4 days ago I started to emerge from
the setback. I didn't go for an adjustment this entire
month until today. So, I was feeling alright
today...communicating fairly well, thinking fairly
well...and then I went for an adjustment.

I came out of there a complete space cadet. My
thinking is distorted, my speech is bad, my memory
is worse...I don't know. Is it just a coincidence?

There is a possibility its causing my skull to shift and
apply pressure to my frontal lobe. When I
questioned her about it...she didn't rule out that
possibility but she said it "shouldn't" do that.
I don't know, but I know I'm never going back there.
I don't want to risk any further damage to my brain.
I'm already screwed up enough as it is lol.

I just thought I'd share with you guys in case you
were considering NUCCA...NUCCA works for some
and for some it doesn't do anything or makes them
worse. Everyone and their injury and reason for an
adjustment is different.

Oh well...at least I know what's been causing me to decline. It'll probably take me another month to get back where I was...and that's okay.

Nick

It may be a case of letting things settle as it is for awhile and see where you are after a time.
Maybe too many changes to close together or something like that?

Ice for 15 minutes, then rest for 30 then ice again for 15.

Even though its been 18 hours since the adjustment?

Okay I'll do that now.

Wow, I can't believe this. My recovery has been such a roller coaster. I just started to emerge from being down this entire month. I was able to get out of the house, handle at least one errand per day, my communication skills were getting better...and then one adjustment puts me back to where I was at the beginning of this month.

Go figure.

I iced my neck but I don't think that helped.

Thanks for the suggestion.

It only makes sense that its applying pressure to my left frontal lobe. I'm extremely irritable today, the spontaneity of my thoughts and speech is gone (this just started to improve over the last 3 days), and my memory is worse than usual. These are all things controlled by that section of the brain.

My question to anyone who knows about these things is...Will the pressure decrease after my spine falls back out of alignment? If that's the case, I'm going to do everything the doctor asked me NOT to do, so my alignment will go back to the way it was lol.

Why can't I just have a normal recovery? Lol...geez, no wonder I've got so much anxiety. I get an improvement or learn a work-around...then a week or so later something bad happens and that improvement is gone and the work-around doesn't work anymore.

Nick

First, HI! I'm surprised to see you!

Second, there's no such thing as a "normal" recovery.

Remember - every single head injury is different. When I started to get better my family and I expected my to progressively get better like is I were recovering from a sprained ankle or getting over a cold. But people don't heal from brain injuries that way... there is a lot of two steps forward, one step back. Or a set of good days and a set of bad days with little to explain how to get one over the other.

Just remember that you are experiencing good days and that in and of itself is a good sign.

I know how frustrating it can be to not feel well cognitively speaking on any day, or at any point in a day. It feels rotten. But you know what? My bad days now are better then my good days were a few months ago - and I still don't like the bad days - even though they are an improvement from a few months ago. Why? Probably because I know what it feels like to feel better and that's what I want. :) All the time. And I want it NOW! :D

OK, I'll try to stop channeling Varuca Salt.

Just hang in there.

And I think stopping your NUCCA treatments sounds like a good idea for the time being.

EsthersDoll,

Yeah, I'm supposed to be on vacation from NT. I just thought my experience with NUCCA was worth writing home about lol. There was some people on here that were considering it...and I figured I'd point out the possibility of making things worse.

Every injury is different, though, like you said.

I'm doing a little better now. Still messed up, but better...I just had an anger outburst that almost resulted in physical violence. I had to walk away...I don't normally have those kind of thoughts/feelings (of being violent). So, this is out of the norm for me.

I still feel violent now...crazy violent. Its actually scaring me.

I don't think there is ever a time where icing can cause a problem unless hypothermia is a risk.

So, when in doubt, ice.

And, remember that icing is not a quick fix. It is part of a bigger picture of treatment. If it helps/feels good to ice a place on your head, then do it.

The icing of your neck is to reduce the inflammation at the sight of the adjustment. Once the area becomes inflamed, it takes more repetitions of icing to reduce it. If done right away after the adjustment, the inflammation can be prevented or at least limited. You should still ice periodically after the adjustment.

My son had a TBI 3 months ago, with the bone flap surgeries and all. Killer scar all around his forehead. When they put the bones back in they secured it with little metal plates and screws. I can't imagine that NUCCA would help him or anyone in such a case, his head bones ain't goin' anywhere, and the prospect of manipulating head bones scares me anyway; I'd be very wary of it. Thank goodness he doesn't have headaches. I once worked a a D.O. teaching hospital and allowed one of the interns to do a classic "neck crack" type of manipulation, it messed me up cognitively for a few days. Never again!!! I would totally stay away from these kinds of alternative therapies.

Mark,

Okay, I'll continue to ice.

I've actually got the ice pack on my neck right now.

It burns!!! The alcohol and water is seeping out of the zip lock and burning my neck...lol.

Nick

Thanks for the "heads up" :o So far, my NUCCA therapy seems to be going well. I liked the fact that there were so many before and after x-rays. Sometimes though it is difficult to connect what makes me better or worse.

I am also doing vestibular therapy and those exercises can sure make me nauseous and dizzy. Sometimes it settles down quickly and sometimes not. When it doesn't settle, I can't even be sure if it was the exercise that caused me to have my bad days. I think, in my own situation anyhow, that I sometimes drive myself crazy trying to find what the trigger was.

So far I have had 3 NUCCA adjustments. The main thing I have noticed since I started is that my upper back is quite sore (nothing compared to all the other symptoms I'm sure you all can relate!). But, I see that as a good thing because that means my spine (and therefore muscles) are adjusting to the change in the atlas alignment.

Monday & Tuesday were extremely bad for me this week. On Tuesday I went to my NUCCA appt and I experienced a great relief immediately after. Was it coincidence? Maybe it was - I'm really not sure. But this is good, I don't want to set myself up for huge dissappointment. I still wasn't great the rest of the day, but it had come down from that bad peak of dizziness.

Oh - and here's a possible positive too, my everlasting headache stopped throbbing to the high degree that it was - this may again have something or nothing to do with my 2nd NUCCA adjustment. :rolleyes:

By the way, Thursday (yesterday) was the best day I've had in months. It was such a wonderful break (in general my symptoms were all down around the 3 or 4 level). It was great to be able to enjoy my day. :D

So, I'm taking your warning Nick and will keep a close eye on my reaction to the NUCCA and I will keep folks posted here. One thing my other Chiro said (the one who does my active release), was patience is so important for patients :p like us. He said, "You just need to try different things until you find the right therapy or the right combination of therapies that bring you some relief".

And Mark, I agree with you - ice ice ice!

My hope/goal for myself is to get relief from some of my symptoms that may then relieve some of the stress on my brain and then, make me better able to move forward.

X-Soccergal

I do realize that NUCCA is for upper cervical, just sayin' be very careful of all these kinda manipulative treatments. And especially be aware of the practitioner's experience and ability. There's just too much room and possibility for further damage to be done.

Oh yes, I agree damage can be done. It's like any health practitioner, they can have a huge affect and there are good ones and bad ones out there. My Nucca guy came highly recommended and has been doing this since 1997. It appears to me that it's not just a science, but an art and skill of physics and geometry to go with it.

I have had my share of "quacks" over the years but I've also been fortunate to find two professionals who I have great trust in. One is my GP, I believe in the US, you call them PC (basically my medical doc). Been with my dr for years and I trust her with my life. She told me just this week that is is moving so I am looking for a new doc whom I can trust. Sigh.

The other person I trust is in fact my chiropractor whom I've been going to for years for various sports injuries, headaches and pains. It's funny to go to a chiro who Never cracks me!!! He works with my muscles while I move certain ways. I've had huge success with AR therapy over the past 7 years or so. He cares and every patient gets the treatment that fits them. It is this person who recommended the NUCCA chiro to me. Both of thses dr's know that I do not want any cracking. The NuCCA guy just puts gentle ptressure behind my right ear at a certain angle. There is no sound at all and I can't really feel any movement. I have a neck injury that has caused some compression on my spinal cord at c5-c6 and i have no interest in risking that further through cracking.

But, my case sounds quite less serious than your son's. I had no skull fractures or flaps created. We all have to be careful, but in your case even more so.

I wish your son all the best in his recovery and rehabilitation. Good luck.

X-soccergal

wendroo,

Actually, you have a wrong understanding of NUCCA. It relates to the very fine manipulation of Atlas (C-1) to the occipital condyle with some possible manipulation of the C-1 to C-2 joint.

It appears you are confusing it to Cranial Sacral Therapy or Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy.

They are entirely different modalities. There is no Twist the head and Pop the neck in NUCCA. The only popping sound with NUCCA is the chiro's wrist socket as it pops under the slight pressure exerted.

From what I was told, if done properly, the chiro's wrist will pop. It is not anything in the patient's neck. The manipulation is repeated about 5 to 8 times with a few seconds between manipulations. Basically, the chiro stands up almost like he is stretching his back before he starts the next manipulation.

nwsmiths comments about the chiro doing some manipulation of his back and neck while laying down is more of a generic chiro technique. The NUCCA protocol does not treat the rest of the spine. The NUCCA purist believes that if Atlas (C-1) is properly positioned, the rest of the spine will self correct.

While researching Active Release Techniques (ART), I found it to be very similar to myofacial release as done by my Physical Therapist. It uses many of the same manipulations. The 'developer' of ART has just tried to patent and protect his training methods so as to keep the training profits to himself. The patent claims all relate to teaching the ART procedures.

I agree with the comments about trying to manipulate the skull plates. The research shows that they do not move as one enters young adult age. I had a DO try to do some neck manipulation that did not help at all and left me sore.

There is a very gentle chiro technique called Activator that uses a hand tool that give a gentle stimulation to the vertebra with no popping sound or feeling. It may take a few more treatments to get the full effect but it is much more comfortable and less traumatic. My chiro could solve most of my problems and only occasionally needed to use a "drop table" technique.

it is unfortunate that wendroo had such a bad experience with c spine manipuilation, could be cause you had an intern, but we all have to learn. Fact of the matter is if done correctly, the adjustment can have such a positive impact on the recipient. I' a PT & a DC...I had a new patient thurs, 15 year old gymnist, Head aches for 4 years ...one adjustment and a week later when she came in had not one the previous week....for the post concussion try with probasble success a chiropractic functional neurologist, found through the Carrick Institute...good luck

spinesnh,

Welcome to NeuroTalk. Thanks for the comments about bad chiro experiences.

The Carrick Institute protocol is very expensive and does not have any useful research showing long term and lasting efficacy. It has been used primarily by high profile athletes and celebrities. I am not saying it does not work. Just that its long term value vs its high expense is a challenge.

You might ask your GP for a recommendation of another good GP in your area. Through my head injury experience, I have discovered that all the good Docs tend to know one another.

Also, make sure that your current GP can confirm with your new GP that you DO IN FACT have a brain injury that you are recovering from. Just in case it appears "invisible" to them. I'm so dependent on my PCP (Primary Care Physician) knowing who I was before the accident and knowing that I'm dealing with impairments that it would scare me and make me super anxious if I had to get a new one.

I too was assaulted and 14 years of experience treating the body as a professional was useless until I had an intraoral adjustment of the fault at the sphenobasilar joint. I then began to recover immediately.

Traumatic brain injury requires the attention of several manual techniques to restore balance to the body. NUCCA is an excellent therapy and you needed it; however, it is highly likely you have a cranial fault at the sphenobasilar joint in your head and this can only be adjusted intraorally. Very few practitioners know how to make this adjustment. Your nervous system as accommodated the blow and the force has mis-aligned your cranial bones. Each time the C1 is adjusted with NUCCA it increases the pressure at the faulted S/B joint making you very dysfunctional neurologically.

Look for a cranial D.O.--a Doctor of Osteopathy specializing in cranial adjustments--not all DO's offer cranial sacral adjustments. Ask him/her directly if he/she performs the intraoral adjustment. Go see the DO immediately if this is the case. If you do not find a DO, then call the Upledger Institute and find out if they have a cranial specialist in your area that gives the adjustment. **

You can recover. Call the doctor NOW.

Dear Nick,
I think when you noticed the treatments were doing bad things to you you should have stopped them permanently. That treatment isn't good for you in my personal opinion.:D

Thanks, I actually called an Osteopath Dr. after seeing your comment. I was lucky to get in after a cancellation fairly quickly. I feel a lot better since my appointment, can't say that it necessarily fixed me as the brain is still healing.

Many of the odd feelings in my head and neck and some of the symptoms I had have either completely disappeared or faded significantly. I am in my 9th month of recovery and figured I had nothing else to lose, glad I gave it a try. He was able to make some of the stuff go away that the chiro and massage therapist were unable to treat after months of therapy.

How are you doing now?


QUOTE=srgallan;906739]Thanks, I actually called an Osteopath Dr. after seeing your comment. I was lucky to get in after a cancellation fairly quickly. I feel a lot better since my appointment, can't say that it necessarily fixed me as the brain is still healing.

Many of the odd feelings in my head and neck and some of the symptoms I had have either completely disappeared or faded significantly. I am in my 9th month of recovery and figured I had nothing else to lose, glad I gave it a try. He was able to make some of the stuff go away that the chiro and massage therapist were unable to treat after months of therapy.[/QUOTE]

Welcome herzogcarmen. :Tip-Hat:

herzogcarmen,

Welcome to NeuroTalk.

This thread has been inactive since 8/18/2012. Spacecadet is successfully moving ahead with his life. I don't know about the others.

Please feel free to introduce yourself and tell us how we can help you.

My best to you.

Thank you for the warm welcome :). 10 years ago I was hit in the head with a frozen basketball. My life has changed so much since that day. I suffered a ton of debilitating symptoms such as constantly feeling like I was going to faint, rapid heart rate, low blood pressure,extreme nervousness, muscle weakness, inflammation etc to name a few. After 2 years of NUCCA treatment I was able to feel normal again. I held my alignment for 4 years and I felt great other than some lingering anxiety from the whole experience. I had my 1st baby via c section and managed. To hold my alignment until I started a running program. I knew I was out of alignment because the first symptoms I get is widespread pain and inflammation and a feeling of horrible horrible anxiety and panic attacks. I got adjusted a few times and then got back on track. In the past 8 years I ha e been adjusted 5 times. I've had 3 kids, the last being my 3rd c section in April/14. Recently my legs had become weak and I lifted heavy suitcases and hurt my incision. This threw me out of alignment in a different pattern (got new x rays). When out of alignment that horrible panic attack (they are constant, like I have drank 20 pots of strong coffee) comes back. When I get adjusted it goes away. But this time I'm struggling with this new adjustment. I feel dizzy, sick, widespread pain and inflammation, sensitive to lights a d sounds, memory fog, and just overall feel as awful as I do 10 years ago before I started treatment. I have always wondered if my brain had a mild injury in all this but 2 mri's and a ct scan never showed anything. I just wonder if anyone on here has any insight or advice they could share with me?

A clear MRI and CT Scan is normal for a concussed brain. In fact, many define a concussion as a cluster of symptoms after a head impact with a clear MRI and CT Scan.

It does sound like you have concussion symptoms. Any upper neck injury can make PCS symptoms much worse.

Do you do any icing of your neck after treatments ? I think it will help. Inflammation has a big part is causing an increase in symptoms. Taking curcumin should also help with inflammation.

We have a vitamin regimen posted at the top in the Stickies.

I suggest you ask a moderator/administrator to help you change your screen name. Using an email address puts you at risk. You can set your preferences in the User CP to allow others to PM (Private Message) and/or email you. Hcarmen would be a simple screen name

What is NUCCA??

NUCCA is Nation Upper Cervical Chiropractors Association. http://www.nucca.org/

They are specialists in working with C-1 and the subtle injuries that can effect it.

I've been doing nucca for over a month. Very skeptical at first but started improving so I didn't question it. Now I'm not really seeing much progress so am thinking of giving it up.

I just can't buy in to it. It feels like a scam to me.

NUCCA does not help everybody. Some have an upper neck injury that needs treatment. Others, not so much. Plus, different NUCCA chiros have different skill sets.

i've gotten wicked headaches from cranio-sacral, and also from head massage, so no more of that stuff for me. was gonna have a chiro look at my neck, and will still have her look but thanks to this string i'll be very, very cautious about any even minor adjustments. i'm steadily improving so i'm not sure a neck adjustment is gonna help.