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difference in ala and rla
Can someone tell me the differences/ benefits etc of alpha lioric acid and R-liporic acid ? There is so much info and both that trying to really see what works best for Idiopathic Small Nerve Fiber Neuropathy plus also being recently diagnosed with pre-diabetes ( right on the edge of pre) , I want to take which ever one is the best to help both plus some of the other supplements I's trying to help. I've read about the Nerve Formula ( or neuropathy formula ad on web) also that seems to have lots of the things I'm taking but it is all in one . As i hope it all can help the burning feet and legs in the long run.
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This is the thread that discovers and discusses the merits of
all 3 versions of lipoic acid: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...light=Blaylock Is this the product? https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...nYQqjt1NdLiahg If so you have to take 2 capsules to get what is listed. If you decide to do this you should take them on an empty stomach to get full benefit. This product has the old alpha lipoic in it, does not tell how much, and therefore you won't know how much you are getting. Several things listed in that last proprietary mixture are also not detailed as to quantity. Places that do this are not user friendly. You won't know what is working for you IF you get a response. It is your money and decision after all. It would cost you about 30 cents a day to take FIVE milligrams of methylcobalamin daily compared to this mixture which is only a vitamin pill with 1mg methyl B12. The rest is questionable because the doses of the important items like acetyl carnitine and alpha lipoic acid are not listed. |
no the pill i saw ad for was neuropathy support formula , it had the benofatamine , alpha lipoic acid and lots of the B's just wonder if any one knew about it . I've seen something somewhere that some found good results with it .
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This one?
http://neuropathytreatmentgroup.com/# This one is a bit better. However, it does not detail what type of R-lipoic is in there. If it is the older form, that is not very soluble. I was using it for a long time (Source Naturals) and not getting much in the way of improvements. Switching to the Stabilized form has been better for me. The only caveat I have about this product is that you must take it on an empty stomach for best results. Both the B12 and R-lipoic are better absorbed that way. It is you choice after all. If you scroll down to the breakdown of the ingredients at the bottom: Quote:
Benfotiamine by Doctor's best does not cost $50.00 http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-B...3620371&sr=8-1 120 caps is 2 months supply at 300mg a day=$15.87 Doctor's Best R-lipoic acid stablized is $15.29 for 60 which is a 2 months' supply. The B12 from Puritan's is 5mg is 60/12.99 which is 2 months worth. http://www.puritan.com/vitamin-b-12-...000-mcg-032860 The rest of the ingredients of this product are commonly in most multivits and the doses in the Support formula. So if you want to spend the big bucks, and get it all in one you will have to accept that you will need to take it on an empty stomach, and that the lipoic may not work for you. The major problem with shot gun mixtures that are fixed in dose is that you cannot tailor doses to meet your own needs. One mixture does not help everyone equally. And many of these products advertise quite a bit and you pay for the advertising. Buying your own, bypasses that cost addition. Products like this, and the vitamins in general only help those low in those ingredients. If you are not low in B12, taking more may not work. The same goes for the benfotiamine. I cannot comment on the herbs...and I really don't like them in there. Some people may react to them, and therefore think the whole supplement is useless. I don't suggest herbs here for that reason, as there are no studies to speak of for using them for PN. Herbs may interact with medications you are taking as well. |
Now how does taking any of these on a empty stomach affect your stomach, does it cause any stomach issues. I'm already on nexium for acid reflux so I'm not sure if i need to take it before or after i take my Nexium. Nexium blocks the stomach from absorbing lots of things and I've often wondered if it is not the problem when I"ve had low Vit D as my body can't absorb due to the nexium blocking things i need. I think I won't try the all in one wonder pill just didn't know about it . Thanks for all the really really good advice .
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Yes, Nexium blocks B12 because it reduces acid that is needed for intrinsic factor to aid absorption.
When you take B12 extra in this situation, you BYPASS intrinsic factor action, and absorb passively in the small intestine instead. This is why empty stomach is important as presence of food will impair this second way--the passive absorption. Nexium works systemically, and should be in your system when you take the supplements from the day before. The acid blocking drugs impair the absorption of: B12 folate Calcium Magnesium Iron zinc These are the ones so far that have been evaluated. R-lipoic stabilized is water soluble and a very small amount and should not upset the stomach. The old alpha lipoic racemic mixture had to be used in very high doses, and some people complained about that. Taking the old one also with food reduces its absorption about 30% however. The stabilized form of R-lipoic is very easy to tolerate because the dose is so much smaller. I take it on an empty stomach just for insurance because the older version showed absorption interference with food. You should take the B12 and Lipoic on an empty stomach. All the rest may be taken with food. It does not matter if you take the nexium an hour later. |
Great that helps me so much I didn't want to cause a stomach issue and I also didn't want the Nexium to block things i needed. Now is it better for the benfotiamine to be on an empty stomach?
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The only thing I found so far for it, was that benfotiamine is more absorbed than regular B1 thiamine. |
Ok just was looking at Amazon , iherb and Puritan. My next question is there was a doctors best best , stablized r-lipoic acid 100 mg, 60 veg caps for 15.29. I was just wondering about that one . Also when you say 120 caps is a 2 month supply for the Benfotiamine is it a 150 mg bottle , taking 1 twice a day there isn't one that comes in 300mg is there ? I know you will be soooooooooooooo glad when you get this old woman straight on all of this but it is all so new to me and I"m still trying to learn. I"m a right brain person as I"m a semi retired art teacher if that gives you a clue lol
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here:
http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-B...gie-Caps/39265 You can decide. I prefer the 150mg for maintenance and 300mg to start. You may not need 300mg a day for long. I can remember when this was not even available in US...had to buy from Germany... and when it did come here it was over $60 a month! Those times are gone, thankfully. |
To Mrs. D,
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Thanks.:) |
I don't think it really matters. Once you are on Nexium, you have blood levels stable already. Also Nexium is enteric coated, and does not break down until out of the stomach. If your acid is really low it may start to absorb there but not likely.
So if you are an hour late for the Nexium you will not miss much. Once you get on a schedule that new time will become your dose time. You might think about whether you really NEED Nexium so much. It also impairs protein digestion and when your protein goes down, your blood carrier proteins become impaired. Many hormones are carried by these proteins, including your levothyroxine. |
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I really want to limit myself from taking drugs. But, sometimes even if I dont eat anything that I think it aggravates the acid, the reflux just happens. Mrs. D, I am not taking anything for my osteoarthritis. My pinky has been swelling and all my fingers are really stiff in the morning and painful the whole day. I think my knees are also starting to hurt. Is there a supplement (other than Glucosamine) that I can take that would not interact with my other supplements? Thank you Mrs. D. |
Yes, I have been thinking about you, and that arthritis.
You know I have great success for my arthritis from using SAMe for the past 10+ yrs. It in fact fixed my knee 90% (I still get twinges but no swelling) and so I avoided a knee replacement. At that time 10 yrs ago, the MRI and xrays indicated my left would "go" in 5 yrs and it never happened as yet! I had a steroid shot in the knee after the MRI was mostly normal, and that was it. I started the SAMe then as insurance. Back then it cost $1.50 a 200mg pill and now is down to about 30 cents. A huge reduction. I use NatureMade, and started at 200mg a day on an empty stomach in the early morning, and raised it by 200mg every other month or so until I was at 600mg daily. I used it that way for years. I stopped it 2 yrs ago, when I started some expensive things and I guess I shouldn't have. So now I am back on the SAMe at 200mg a day so far as I feel like I am relapsing some. NatureMade has buy one get one free at all 3 big pharmacies, CVS, Walgreen's and RiteAid...they rotate the sales. It is easy to save big bucks this way. Also NatureMade has a rebate point program of $7.00 refund with 500pts. The SAMe typically gives 500pts for 3 boxes or so. So you can apply that to the next purchase, etc. Costco now has SAMe at very low prices too. SAMe is moisture sensitive and should be blister packed if you choose another brand. It must be packaged this way for best shelf life. I stick with NatureMade because they created the oral dosage form from the injectable that was used in Europe. In Italy and other countries SAMe was given typically by doctors to patients in injectable form. It is not stable orally, but NatureMade figured out how to do it...so I stick with them. Studies have shown SAMe as effective as NSAIDs after 6weeks in patients. It is a slow but steady acting anti-inflammatory and the only side effects typically are insomnia, or hyper feelings in the beginning. SAMe also protects the liver, and enables neurotransmitter synthesis. So you can really feel better in several ways. But go slowly, as in the beginning it can be quite a blast. Younger people get that effect more than older people I have seen, as well. You can take it every other day, if needed, if you get that hypomanic effect in the beginning. It is something to consider...and now that it is so much more affordable it is doable too. Many people avoided it because of the cost, etc back when. |
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Dear Mrs D, Just have some clarifications: 1. Can I take Same along with vitb12, r-lipoic? 2. Can I take synthroid along with these 3 vitamins (since they should be taken all on an empty stomach)? 3. The co-factors of SAMe are vitb6, folate and vitb12 - I am taking vit12 separately, would vitb6 and folate in multivitamin be sufficient? 4. Is there an aspirin or ibuprofen in SAMe - i dont see these in any of the sites i read, just want to confirm with you. I have strong allergic reactions to asppirin and ibuprofen. Thank you so much. |
SAMe does not have aspirin or NSAIDs in it.
Take the thyroid, wait 1/2 hour and then take the lipoic and SAMe. Since you are fluctuating with the levothyroxine, take it alone, for insurance. With a full glass of water it should leave the stomach in about 1/2 hour and move along. The SAMe does not dissolve until the intestines. It has a special coating. That takes time, so the thyroid should have moved along by then. You can take the lipoic, B12 and SAMe together. Wait another 1/2 hr or so before eating. SAMe is made in the body from homocysteine, using the 3 vitamin cofactors and glycine (which supplies the methyl group). Once it gives up the methyl group, it is regenerated using the 3 B vitamins over and over. Some people fail in this step with age, so taking it as a supplement repairs that. I'd start with a small package of 200mg... a 30 pack. Take one a day for a month. See how you feel. You should notice mood effects within the first week. But the effects on joints may take a month or two and then are slowly progressive in a positive way. This link explains the chemistry: http://einstein-syndrome.com/biochem...#MTHFRMutation It gets complicated. But... if you do respond well to SAMe, it might point to a DNA test for the MTHFR problem for you. This link also shows the interlinking of the methylation chemistry to each other. |
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Thank you so much for your reply and information. But, I am sorry I forgot to ask you last night - as you may know, I am taking Gabapentin, is there any "sedatives" component of Gabapentin that may have interaction with SAMe? Thank you very much. |
SAMe does not have any interactions that I know of.
The only warning it carries is for bipolar patients, who might get hyped up on it and not realize. But even then it is a mild warning, not a big one. Here is a long monograph: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/s...ine-000324.htm I don't think it will have any negative effect on the gabapentin, and may in fact improve your cognition which is a common side effect of gabapentin. It is really a great supplement and just a few months ago had the price decrease, at Costco's. I joined Costco in fact over a decade ago, just to buy it---since it was lower price there. All the money I saved payed for my membership several times over in fact back then. There is a guarantee on NatureMade's website...if you don't like it you can return it (free shipping) for a full refund, with receipt and unused portion. The drug interactions listed are the same as for serotonin increasing drugs. But since the SAMe is not increasing it so high like drugs do, the warning is basically a "cover your butt" warning. For people taking SSRIs or SNRIs, the warning is germain and should be followed however. I didn't find SAMe much help for my PN, so I don't bring it up here often. But it is very good for joint and tendon issues. |
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I asked because of that warning on people taking anti-depressants. I am not taking anti-depressant medicines but due to the "grogginess/sleepiness/fogginess" effect in my brain of the gabapentin ----- oh well, just wanted to make sure. AND, its very good that you are around whom we can turn to - always. I will buy NatureMade brand and try for a month. Let us cross our fingers.... |
Read through the thread roughly, and sorry am still confused which is the better one to use?
Sue:) |
R-lipoic stabilized is the best one to use now.
example: http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-B...-Veggie-Caps/4 100mg a day to start of this type. If you choose others non-stabilized you will need higher doses because they are less efficiently absorbed. |
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I am wondering, what is the DNA test for the MTHFR called, in case I need to mention it to my doctor? Mrs.D, my folate serum before my PN symptoms was normal. But, you said that I should know the number between the folate and folic and there was no differentiation in my test, it was just called : "folate (folic ) serum". I want to mention this also to my doctor ... I have consumed now 8 tabs of SAM-e and it seems my arthritis pain is reduced. It could be that I may be resonponding well. That is why I am considering the test you mention above. Thank you very much.:hug: |
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I wonder if the price at Costco is cheaper than the Commisssary's price. I should look for the cheapest quality supplements because the supplements we (PNers) are taking are for the long haul. ;) |
That is a fast response. I had a "response" very quickly too, but it was in mood and energy levels. I think I cleaned 3 closets out in the first 2 weeks back then! LOL ;)
My knee was inflamed and swollen and the MRI said had normal cartilage... But I was at the same time shopping for my son after vacation, for college stuff. It was a big deal to get him settled. I had all his stuff done before vacation. He and his dad came home early and left me up there alone, at the end of August. Well, they left the bag of stuff (dorm HBAs, etc) outside the room in the hall and went to eat or something and someone stole it. So when I got home I had to replace it all in 2 days, because I was slated to several jobs immediately! I walked into WalMart, and the new SAMe was on an endcap sale island for about $18.00 for 15 of them 200mg each. It was a mega sale. I knew about it but at that time, the therapeutic doses published were 800mg a day for it and that would be over $4.00 a day. So I was waiting for a price decrease. But since WalMart had NatureMade there, I decided to try it anyway. By the 5th day on it, I KNEW it was for me! Luckily for me, Costco just opened in our area and had them in 90 tablet boxes at quite a savings. But now, of course, we know 1) you don't really need those high doses 2) it is so much more affordable...no excuse to not try it. It took much longer to affect my arthritis... but it did. It helped me thru the menopause too. Kept me sharp when I had to do 6 different computer systems a week, in my contingent assignments. (this was a huge problem for me at the time). So stick with it, and if you don't have the hyper issues, that means you are tolerating it better than average. I think early on you are feeling the improvements in pain perception, and that is what you sense as helping the arthritis. When the swellings go down...that will be a bigger moment. |
Yes, my arthritis pain is reduced! :D Thank God!!! I hope it continues to improve. With the swelling of my fingers, specially my pinky (which could no longer be bended), I would be happy with little improvements.
Do you think I should get that test you mentioned about DNA testing, in case SAM-e works well? Thank you so much.:hug: |
I'd take the SAMe for several months. If you still have problems with other things, do get the test eventually. I think it is not that expensive anymore.
SAMe in the body works with a methyl donor from food. Things like Beets. If you don't like them, you can buy supplements with glycine in them. TMG (trimethylglycine) is one and glycine is another. The 3 B's, folate, B12, pyridoxal work to make SAMe but the methyl donor has to be there to attach to the homocysteine molecule. So a lack of glycine would slow that down. I am glad this is working for you... that is a pretty fast response. You might have been very low. |
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I will check on this tomorrow. Thank you.:hug: P.S. Definitely, I will continue taking SAM-e!!!!! |
Beets are not cruciferous. They are root veggies. The root veggies all have some glycine in them, but most people don't cook them up much any more.
I buy canned and pickled beets, and have them myself about once or twice a week. My husband won't eat them at all. I love them. It is a craving of sorts. I'm glad the SAMe is working for you. ;) |
Can't beat a beet...
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A little bit An itty-bitty Little bit of beet. Then bit by bit the beet he bit.... Because he liked the taste of it. But when he bit A wee bit more, It was more bitter than before. This beet is bitter! Rabbit cried. I feel a bit unwell inside! But when he bit Another bite, that bit of beet Seemed quite all right. Besides...when all is said and done, Better bitter beet Than none. ~ Unknown Doc |
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Oh, good that beets are not cruciferous. Thats good news! |
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