Neurofeedback success?
 

Hi guys, I'm getting a bit desperate in my search to heal faster so I signed up for neurofeedback. My appointment is next Tuesday.

Just wondering if any of you have a) tried it and b) had any noticeable improvement on any symptoms.

I still have the same symptoms, Dizziness, major sensitivity to jolting (especially car rides), sound and tension headaches (like pressure or tension band around the head).

thanks

What kind of neurofeedback are you scheduled for?

Is it volitional or non-volitional ?

Does it have a proprietary name?

I am a researcher working with neurofeedback for TBIs, "chemobrain" and MS. I've just worked with two young men, each of whom had had two concussions in quick succession. Before neurofeedback, both were assessed at about the 50th percentile; after 8 sessions, both were in the 90th-95th percentile. Obviously, both were very high functioning prior to the TBIs, and were returned to that condition.

In addition, headaches essentially disappeared and depression lifted.

The equipment we were using is called NeurOptimal, developed by the Zengar Institute of British Columbia. Very easy to use, does not require a Quantitative EEG for diagnosis.

This is not enough data for us to be sure that neurofeedback is a good way of addressing the problems that result from TBIs, but it seems very promising, and we are continuing to gather data, and hope to design a study that will be more definitive.

I hope this is helpful. Valleybob, I hope you'll post about your experience.

Hi Mark, I called and the tech wasn't sure what I mean by those terms you mentioned. She said I will be telling her what on the screen etc... But I read one of your previous posts from 2010 explaining the difference.

I'm glad you did because I'm going to try and find out if it's true neurofeedback or just for "relaxation".

Hello JeanA and welcome to NeuroTalk :)
You are very welcome to share info gleaned from your research with our members, which I am sure they will find very helpful...... but I do just need to draw your attention to our guidelines that strictly prohibit any research on the posts made by our members, or to enlist them in research projects
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=1293

Thanks for the reminder, Chemar. My intent really is to be helpful to the list members...I have no agenda for myself here (though I expect to learn from the perspective of those experiencing neurological symptoms.

JeanA

The system JeanA uses, NeurOptimal is a non-volitional system that uses visual and audio stimuli to try to retrain the brain. I spent quite a bit of time analyzing the research and am not particularly impressed.

The before and after comparison is based on self-reporting with no obvious effort to measure or adjust for placebo effect.

It appears to have some similarities to ROSHI but with more real time computer control.

It has no comparison to LENS, a non-volitional NeuroTherapy system that uses minute electromagnetic energy to stimulate the brain.

It also has no comparison to the volitional neurofeedback systems that require the subject to make positive efforts to effect real time change in EEG wave forms.

It looks to be the least intrusive of the non-volitional neurotherapy systems.

I did not research FDA comments but suspect it could be categorized as exempt under a 'relaxation device.'

If I find any other useful information, I will update my post.

Hi, Mark.

If you've been researching neurofeedback this carefully, you know that there are very different views about how to approach feeding information back to the brain. I never want to subject a group whose focus is not neurofeedback to that cranky conversation, but let me just respond quickly to your comment about placebo.

I have some concern about that with TBI clients, since I have only worked with two (the third will start next week). However, with "chemobrain" (which has several significant things in common with TBI), we did a good study (the equipment did not make double-blinding possible, though that capacity is almost ready and the next study will use that upgraded software). We used 18 measures—13 were significant at p<.001. 21 of 23 participants essentially returned to normal. That's waaay too much for placebo.

When we have more TBI data, I'll be happy to share it here. There's no benefit to me in convincing people on this forum to try this approach. I posted because someone asked about neurofeedback, and I have some experience; I hope you will not discourage folks from exploring something that seems to offer potential.

JeanA,

My big question for you is what criteria did you use to determine level of recovery/improvement?

I read the research/dissertation by Karen Cochrane and am not impressed with the self-reporting of changes.

Nor have I been able to find any other research of substance.

Of all the non-volitional neurotherapy systems, the NeurOptimal looks to be the safest and possibly the most understandable. The NeurOptimal practitioners throughout the country sure have a poor understanding of the ins and outs of neurotherapy, especially as it regards FDA and allowed uses.

Mark, it seems like you and I could have some interesting conversation about this, and I'd be happy to do that, but I feel a little uncomfortable doing it in this arena—I can't imagine that anyone else on this forum is interested, and I generally hate it when a thread I am watching on a list I care about wanders onto a tangent like this. If you'd like to be in personal contact, please let me know.

Jean

Thanks for the post JeanA. I will definitely update the group on my progress. My first session is next Tuesday. I will also ask them what their record is with PCS clients.

Valleybob,

I did Neurofeedback about a dozen sessions 2 month after my mTBI. I have similar symptoms like yours dizziness, pressure headaches etc., still. One thing I felt immediately after the session is my symptoms went down significantly and my smell also improved. So it worked but unfortunately the effect didn't last longer.

Then I found by accident Xanax brings down the symptoms but as any benzo ,I needed more dosage so I quit and now I take only a very small dosage when I need. Like if I feel dizzy, pain and I have to drive for 20 mins. It immediately brings down my symptoms and I can do things for the rest of the day. Now I am doing Cranio sacral, myofascial which also helps and my symptoms are not that bad but still too many ups and downs on a daily basis.

So Neurofeedback is worth trying. Have you done any EEG to monitor seizure activities? I did EEG before Neurofeedback bcuz that is one thing they like to know.

The Psychologist/therapist who did treatment has lots of TBI/PCS patients and has very good understanding of my symptoms and suffering.
Following is the link:
http://www.brainwellnessandbiofeedba...ofeedback.html


I plan to go to a different place in a month or two bcuz I need a permanent relief rather than all this temporary reliefs. Following is the link where I am planning to try and also a good thing is very close to where I live.

http://www.neurofeedbackcenterva.com/

Cheers!

I had my first session today. They take a baseline of all areas of your head once with eyes open and again with eyes closed. After that on the screen it said EEG1 and EEG2 (i think this was both brain hemisphere's). Basically I just sat there and looked at the screen and the more calm I was the more the screen flowed and sound was uninterrupted. But if I moved or was anxious then it stopped. Once I was still and calm the screen flowed again.

So we looked at my baseline and she said my anxiety was low and most areas were "normal" except the "Theta slow wave" had elevated activity in the frontal area. So we're going to work on it.

Mark by my description what type of neurofeedback is this?

I'm somewhat relieved because this give me a little bit of proof that my symptoms are not just in "my head" because of anxiety but they are the symptoms of my head injury.

Hi pcslife, thanks for your reply.

I will try what you said the xanax or other benzo. I have ativan but someone suggested clenazopam as it's less addictive. Either way I only plan to take it when symptoms are really bad. Mostly it's the chronic dizziness (feeling of body moving to the right and the sometime the floor moving up) that really impacts me. Although i am doing vestibular rehab, I still want to get to the bottom of it. I'm reading a book on dizziness and vertigo and the specialist in the book says that anyone who goes in his office is automatically sent for a hearing test as Step 1. Nobody has told me to do this but it makes a lot of sense since I have hyperacusis and I'm dizzy all the time. Of course these are also main symtpoms of PCS but who know maybe I did some damage to the inner ear when I fell.

Vb,

Your neurofeedback is true volitional neurofeedback. You have control of the changes in waveforms. This is the least risky form of neurotherapy.

Getting tested at the hearing center sounds good. Most hearing centers also have expertise with balance issue.

I hoped you find a solution so you can stop taking the benzo.

My best to you.

Thanks Mark, I will continue with sessions 1 once a week for a while to see if there is any improvement. After the first session I've noticed nothing at all.

Hearing test next week with audiologist, see how it goes. How do you post "thanks for this" at the bottom of a reply?

There should be a little button that says "Thanks" on the right bottom side of the post. Just click that!

Good luck with your neurofeedback!

neurofeedback worked for migraines
 

Good afternoon, I can't attest to the effect of neurofeedback on TBI however, I have had an amazing experience with my 19 year old daughter who has had frequent, disabling migraines for over 10 years. I heard about neurofeedback and did some research to find that there were some studies demonstrating its effectiveness. After a few weeks of treatment her migraines stopped completely and she has now been migraine-free for over 4 months. It is a miracle to see her happy and painfree. She used the NeurOptimal type of neurofeedback and there were no adverse effects.

The NeuroOptimal web site has more information now. It appears the NO is sort of like a training for the brain to "Stop and Think" when the processing gets erroneous. Training the brain to do this at a sub-conscious level sounds interesting. It is sort of like volitional neurofeedback except rather that eliciting an action, the NO system removes the stimulation allowing the brain to stop processing the stimulation and get back to basics.

I am not saying that stopping to think is the same as NO but as I have learned to Stop and Think at an almost involuntary level, my ability to function has increased. A common problem with PCS is the brain's over-reaction or attempt to over-process a set of stimuli. This system appears to try to train against this.

MarianLF,

How much did it cost per session and how many sessions did it take ?

Does the therapist think she may needed 'tune-ups' from time to time ?

Hi Mark, the sessions were $40 each as she is a student (charge was $50 for adults). Unfortunately our insurance wouldn't cover it but it was worth it. No more drugs. The therapist did suggest that some people require tune-ups but so far so good.

MarianLF,

I bet your daughter has a Type A personality and is very ambitious and accomplished. Her migraines would be extra miserable since they limit her ability to achieve her goals.

Does she or did she play soccer or other contact sports ?

Hi Mark, she has a tendency to get stressed over things, is doing OK at University, but not as well as she would like. She never played any sports but used to dance. The reason I am so sure the neurofeedback helped her is that at the end of April she had three very stressful events in the course of a week, including a car accident (not her fault, and no injuries) and she didn't develop a migraine. She is still stressed about driving since the accident but no migraines. I still can't believe it. I forgot to mention, she had 19 sessions in total, twice per week at first, then tapered to once per week and now none.

I am not surprised she tends to get stressed over things. Learning to get free of this stress is an skill that will provide the most benefits. Otherwise, it will raise its head up and bite her hard later in life. Stress is brain killer and a waistline enlarger.

Maybe the NO therapist can suggest ways for her to learn stress reducing skills. She will love the new her if she can make this change.

My best to you both.