Can CT or MRI be wrong or miss something??
 

Hi all, wow this seems like the kinda' place that can really help me deal with how I am feeling. Seems like a lot of support around here! xo

I'm a 37 yr old mom and for the past 20 years I have suffered from periodic neck pain. Every now and then it would seize up and I couldn't move for about a week then I would slowly start to feel better and then I would carry on like normal till the next seize up. I would go to physio, chiro and massage and it would get me back on track till the next episode. On July 3rd my third son was born, 5 weeks later on a Friday night he had a life threatening episode where he stopped breathing and after a frantic 911 call and several tests by noon the next day the Dr came and sat down in our hospital room and told us that our baby was having seizures and that we would be medi-vac'd to Vancouver children's hospital the next morning (a whole other story, but he 's home and doing great now with a diagnosis of nothing other than epilepsy!) So that day the Dr. came into my room and had the "talk" with me, during that talk, my neck seized again and this time it was excruciating and landed me downstairs in the ER getting some pain control. This was on August 15th, 2012 and I'm still waiting for this seize up to go away! 5 days ago I had a CT and this was my result:

C4-C5:small posterior disc protrusion w/o central canal stenosis
C5-C6:mild right posterior lateral disc osteophyte complex formation and a small posterior disc herniation, resulting in minimal central canal stenosis and effacement of the right lateral recess.
C6-C7:tiny posterior central disc protrusion and minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation with minimal central canal stenosis.
C7-T1:minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation without significant central canal stenosis.

I'm still waiting to see a specialist to go over these results, I've seen my family Dr and he said I most likely need surgery. They seem fairly mild, minimal, tiny etc...why am I in soooo much pain? I can't turn my head to the left AT ALL, I have harsh burning sensation all down the left side of my back into my hip, all down my left arm, in my shoulder and up the side of my neck into my jaw. At times I'm unstable on my feet, almost clumsy feeling, and suffering from incontinence (apparently from child birth?) and always a sensation of feeling like I'm getting the flu (if that makes any sense). Anyways I guess I'm just wondering if anyone can give me some info on my results? Are they what's causing my pain if they are so minimal?

Thanks for reading...Happy Sunday to all!!:grouphug:

Can CT or MRI be wrong or miss something??
 

I'm just wondering if many people have experienced false results with CT or MRI? I would like to hear your story!

I've had x-rays...they showed stage 2 DD disease
I had a CT it showed:

C4-C5:small posterior disc protrusion w/o central canal stenosis
C5-C6:mild right posterior lateral disc osteophyte complex formation and a small posterior disc herniation, resulting in minimal central canal stenosis and effacement of the right lateral recess.
C6-C7:tiny posterior central disc protrusion and minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation with minimal central canal stenosis.
C7-T1:minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation without significant central canal stenosis.

and according to my Dr this is a "normal" CT and walked away from me. I am now waiting for an MRI to show something??? if this is normal, then why did my GP send me to see a neurosurgeon?? I'm so confused and frustrated

I hope to god the MRI shows something, I really need my pain to go away! It's been 9 months of hell.

I need some hope here!

I don't call a CT scan "normal" when you have herniations & bone spurs with a bit of stenosis.

Granted, it's not a "terrible" scan, but it's not normal. :confused:

Your GP sent you to a Neurosurgeon because X-rays don't show any soft tissue when the discs are. They only show bone. Your GP had no idea if you had herniations or not. The only way to know is to have a scan or an MRI.
And to get the best opinion, he had to send you to a Neurosurgeon. GP's need to cover their backside so they send their patients to specialists and it really is a good idea. ;)

When you get your MRI, post it here and we'll try to help. God bless & take care. Hugs, Lee ;)

thanks
 

So my MRI is tomorrow at 3:30 pm, hopefully I will have results within the week sometime. I will post the them when I get them. I have also looked into a private clinic to get a second opinion. It's just been so long, I mean if Chiro or PT was going to work I should have seen results by now don't ya' think? It's been 9 months...

Healing a disc w/o surgery
 

I have heard that you can help a bulging disc or herniated disc with pt or chiro. But at what point would you give up? I mean there must be a "give up" point...for lack of a better term. How long does a Dr let it go before they decide "OK, enough is enough, this is obviously not going to fix itself".

Anyone experience this or have or are currently going through this? I have been going to chiro 3-5 times a week for 8 1/2 months and not a bit better, some days worse actually! I did pt at the beginning but stopped because it made my pain worse too!

Any advice?:confused:

Hi cali4nia
 

I would not go to a chiropracter without clearence from a neurologist. I tried that a time or two with my GP's suggestion. It made my neck worse. If you have had no response thats good, quit now and get another option. Herniated disks can get worse, so see a good neurologist or neurosurgeon for MRI. I wish you all the best. ginnie:hug:

the problem is...
 

I have seen an neurosurgeon and he was a total jerk! I was sitting in his office, looking at a copy of my ct results (c5-t1 all have something, or so it says in the report) and he looked at me and said "your ct is normal" I don't see anything wrong with your neck...once I started to cry from frustration he ordered and mri...lets hope it shows more!

Hi cali4nia
 

I hear you... my first neuro surgeon was a jerk too. I actually waved bye bye to him and walked out, and yep I had an attitude! It took a bit to find those specialists who knew what they were doing. Don't give up about neurologists, they arn't all that way. My second surgeon was awsome, and had the bed side manners not many have. Keep your chin up, and seek another specialist. I also had trouble with a pain specialist. I interviewed four new ones. Now my team is great, and I am grateful I made the effort to find them. ginnie:hug:

I agree with Ginnie about Chiros! Do NOT go to a chiro without the okay from the Neurosurgeon! You could cause permanent nerve damage or even end up paralyzed! I've had 2 different neurosurgeons tell me that by going to a chiro, I could end up paralyzed by being manipulated, and it was just for ME -- it was ANY spinal patient! So be very very careful!! :eek:

And yes, Neuros can be TOTAL creeps. After my 2nd surgery, and I wasn't getting any better, painwise, he had the audacity to say to me: "You can't have pain, I fixed you." How's THAT for arrogance??? In the meantime, I was sitting there in AGONY. What an idiot. After he took a 2nd look at the MRI, I dont' know what he saw, or if he was just trying to get RID of me, but he couldn't have been nicer -- he told me he'd do ANYTHING I wanted. Just ask. I was so stunned, I didn't know WHAT TO SAY! :eek: I was in the process of trying to get SS disability, since I could barely walk without assistance, and I asked him to write a letter to SS saying I couldn't work anymore --- and he did it immediately!!! :eek: I almost fell out of the chair.

So I think he was just trying to get rid of me. And he did -- I'll NEVER go back to that arrogant creep again-- i don't care if I'm bleeding to death. :mad: He's the one that disabled me in the first place, so why go back?

Keep looking for a decent doc. There ARE some around and I found a great one after this. :) Best of luck and God bless. Hugs, Lee ;)

Or Lord -- chiro. :eek: I hope you got a Neuro's ok before undergoing THAT.

Anyway -- make sure you get a copy of the report and bring it here. ;) Yeah, I would have thought you'd have gotten SOME results by now after 9 months!

Are you taking any pain medications? If not, why? Won't your doc give you any?

Hope to hear from you soon. Hugs, Lee ;)

I have had L4 L5 S1 out since November. I AM TAKING NERVE BLOCK I JUCTION UNTIL I SEE what the surgeon is planning on doing. I JUST HAD AND EMG test done april 1 . I go back this Tuesday to see my nero surgeon. I have no I dea if he is going to operate . He has to go something I cant live this way.

Hi Leesa
 

I was told by my first surgeon I couldn't be hurting either. That this was all in my head. The truth is, I didn't know there was more wrong with my neck until I got my records 5 years later. I knew coming out of surgery, that my problem was not corrected. So he orded tests, I refused as I knew I had not gotten the truth out of him anyway. He was just trying to cover his butt.
Arrogant, and cold, I am glad I dumped him.
I feel for those that stumble on those surgeons like this. It takes some real effort to find those physicians willing to address all the problems carefully.

Glad you agreed with no chiro... that was the worst of my early mistakes. The GP didn't even take an xray when telling me to do that. In fact he was pulling up on my head in the office himself.... Good grief, it hurt. He also wanted me to pull up on my own head...knowing this now, makes me angry. He evidently didn't believe me when I told him how much I was hurting.

Thank God it is years later, and I have a good team now in my corner. I hope nobody else has to go through this kind of bad medicine.

Thanks for all your posts Leesa, you are awsome. xxxginnie:hug:

Hi cindylou
 

I would advise you to make sure you get a second opinion with another neuro. Also it is important to TRUST and LIKE the person doing the surgery. If you have any doubts, look up his records. I know you are in pain, but that second and even third opinion is so very important. Get your records and your own MRI, find out exactly what is going on before you agree to surgery. If this is recommended, ask what the surgeon is planning to do, look up the proceedure before hand.
I do wish you all the best. Hope a good resolution happens for you. Not to make you frightened, ....My second surgery was wonderful, and I have good resolution 3 years later. My pain is not that bad, and something I can live with. Keep in touch, and let us know how it goes. ginnie:hug:

Hi Cali4nia,

If you dont mind what are your symptoms ?? I agree with Lee and Ginne everything said--- but im trying to see if there missing some kind of compression or stenosis --Im sorry I been busy latley if i missed something regarding MRI. I do think you know 100% when something not right-- after 8 plus months its apparent DOCS are missing something.

cali4nia,
I merged your most recent threads into this one, to simplify by having replies & info together in a single thread.

Here is an earlier post with symptoms.

Was it the same chiro and same PT the whole time?

If you weren't seeing any kind of improvement in a month or so, then they may not be skilled enough to be helpful at all.:(
If I'm not seeing any improvement or pain reduction w/PT or chiro, I search out a new and more advanced therapy person.

Did the PT or chiro do their own full evaluation or just go by the drs dx/rx?
(all chiros are not bad - there are some very good ones to be found IMO)
Just as bad drs of any kind can be found as has been mentioned also.

If your pain and sx are that bad, the dr should have Rx'd a full MRI since you have upper and lower sx...:confused:

Did you request a copy of the MRI report to be sent to you, that way you can get if before seeing the dr for follow up, and look it over?

was it c spine only or was spine & lumbar included?

Thanks Jomar--!!

I see your ct you have some stenosis and small heriations and bone spurs going on ---im still wanting to more details on your current symptoms any numbness or pain going down arm if so is it on right or left, pain in shoulder or traps?? You having any problems with legs etc..?

Pain meds...
 

Hey good mornin'! So I am taking pain meds, Dilaudid 6mg as needed every 4 hours and that barley touches the pain, takes the edge off though and makes it so I can function as a mother! I did not get the ok from a neuro to do chiro. It just started as neck pain, visit to GP, he said try pt and chiro, it didn't work, so he ordered x-ray and ct, then when he seen those he sent me to a nero who then told me my ct results are normal (???) but ordered and MRI cause I started to cry...lol

MRI today...will post results asap! xo:)

im glad your getting that done are you having any numbness symptoms or mainly pain?

Usually for MRIs they will sometimes order full spine - or cervical spine only, or lumbar only, or thoracic spine only, or a combo etc - depending on location of pain & symptoms.

Do you know which areas your MRI is going to cover, C, T or L spine or all?



It might help for readers here if you list out all your symptoms here.
Then that list might be helpful to take to the drs also, sometimes they focus in on one thing and a clear list will make sure they are aware of everything.


If it was mainly neck/arm pain , I would suggest you read about thoracic outlet syndrome (TOS) but you have other lower body issues mentioned as well. Can you hold your arms up overhead for any length of time like 2-3 minutes? Or do they get very tired, painful, heavy, turn white?
Or you can't even lift/hold them up at all?


There are many other things it could be and those all need to be ruled in/out for best diagnoses.

Hi cali4nia
 

Glad you are getting that MRI. We all care about you. ginnie:hug:

chiro
 

yes lissa is 100 percent correct regarding chiro on neck. but theres even scarier stuff to worry about. the nerves and the blood vessels travel close together in the neck. some studies show chiro adjustments in neck can actually cause strokes.
regarding whether a ct scan be wrong. i doubt a ct of the bones and calcium deposits would ever be wrong. where there is always a question is the discs. they are tough to diagnose even with an mri. sometimes even the mri isnt that accurate. studies have shown the ct myelogram to be the most accurate but its not the safest or most comfortable procedure.
ten years ago i had the best neurosureon in town do a 4 level fusion on my neck. he told me he wanted the best pictures he could get before the surgery. so he did mri, ct, and even the myelogram. he said each test give him more valuable info....i am pretty much pain free now in arms , neck and shoulders.
its always good to get a few opinions regarding surgery.....pete

I will for sure share my MRI results asap!

I am taking Dilaudid for pain but either I'm building a tolerance or the pain is getting worse (im sure both) but i'm up to 6mg every 4-6 hours and it only takes the edge off! I've tried a million others, anti-inflammatories do nothing for some reason...?? figure that one out? and Gabapentin, I'm sure works good, but I can't get to the right dose amount without becoming comatosed, and that's doesn't work with three young boys running round the house!

The way it works here in BC Canada is that first you see your GP, so when my neck first got bad he suggested pt and chiro, so I did what he said. Then he ordered x-rays, they showed stage 2 ddd, so he then ordered a CT, after he saw the CT results he then referred me to a neuro. He was a complete a-hole and said "your ct looks perfect and there's nothing wrong with your neck and that the radiologist that did the report "well that's just one persons opinion, I'm the specialist". So after bursting into tears he finally said "well fine, we'll do and MRI"....so frustrating :(

awwww....xo

Thanks Pete! I am hoping a praying that my MRI shows something more (or whatever it is that my neurosurgeon is looking for to warrant and "not" normal test...lol) I also will be asking my Dr today for another referral for a neuro so I can get a second opinion. I am so glad to hear that you have reached success with treatment! :)

My mri is only C spine. This is my CT report:

C4-C5:small posterior disc protrusion w/o central canal stenosis
C5-C6:mild right posterior lateral disc osteophyte complex formation and a small posterior disc herniation, resulting in minimal central canal stenosis and effacement of the right lateral recess.
C6-C7:tiny posterior central disc protrusion and minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation with minimal central canal stenosis.
C7-T1:minimal posterior disc osteophyte complex formation without significant central canal stenosis.

So I know it's not horrible, but it's got to be the cause of my pain. I don't know what else could be. I am an athletic 37 yr old mother of 3 boys, with no other health problems. I used to be and avid snowboarder and raced border-cross for years and have had several severe whiplash accidents and two bad car accidents with whiplash.

I have the sharp pain in the center of my neck around C5-T1 mostly radiates into my left shoulder, bicep, elbow and wrist and three outside fingers also with very bed headaches that can come on in an instant and also be gone in an instant. My pain progresses through the day depending on my level of activity. I am taking 6 mg of dilaudid every 4-6 hours, I've tried naproxin, toradol, tramadol, cyclobenzaprine, gabapentin(can't get to the right dose as I end up drooling on the couch and the children fending for themselves), t3's and probably more but can't remember right now.

I can hold my right arm above my head for some time without any problem, but my left gets shooting pain in my shoulder and I can't lift it, without bad pain, higher that shoulder height. I get pretty bad lower back pain but I think it's from the other problems and poor posture due to me favoring my upper back, also my T5-6 has a compressed disk but to what extent I'm not sure, all the focus has been on my neck as that's the worst area for pain, everything else has been put on the back burner.

Mostly pain, but if I get myself into certain positions, like sitting at the computer or on the couch, my arm will go numb also, standing I will get horrible burning sensation over my left shoulder blade...like, very bad, feels like someone's holding a hot iron on me!

hmmm, previous whiplash can be a factor for TOS( Adhesions and fascia scarring internally) , could you be hyper mobile too? another factor..
If drs still say mri looks ok, then maybe look into our tos forum here.

much of your descriptions sound very much like tos, but any c spine issues need to ruled in or out.

So I
 

Just got home from a visit with my GP. He has changed my pain meds to 30 mg of Morphine, slow release capsules 2 or 3 a day. He was very sorry that my initial consult with the neuro surgeon went badly so as soon as he gets my MRI results (tomorrow or wed) he will see what it says and on Thursday when I meet with him again he will put in another referral to see a different surgeon to get a second opinion. He is CONVINCED that it's my disc's that are the problem...but that's just his gut feeling.

I was reading about TOS, I do def have some of the symptoms, but I'm not convinced that this is what I have as the x-rays show degenerative changes, also my mom was recently diagnosed with TOS and she feels much different than I. But you never know...I'll definitely look into it, especially if the MRI shows nothing.

Cheers to all:grouphug: have an amazing, pain free night, Cali

Hi cali4nia
 

Your MRI isn't as bad as some, thats for sure. However, there are a number of the verterbre giving some problems. Maybe it can account for the pain you are having in your arms. Unless it says "severe" nerve or cord compression, they usually don't recommend surgery. I agree to look into TOS. Has the doctor brought that issue up at all as a possibility? Don't do any chiropractic things, as you don't want to make it worse OK? Lets see what leesa says too. She is one of the best about the MRI readings. ginnie:hug:

My Dr actually has never mentioned TOS to me b4. And those were my CT results that I posted not my MRI, I will get my MRI results in three days and I for sure will post them. Yea, NO MORE CHIRO for this kid! Doesn't help anyways! Funny how not one of the Dr's has told me to stop!!

I'm kinda' thinking that because my CT results aren't that bad that I am going to have to learn to just live with the pain...which feels impossible and I'm not sure if I am able to do that :( the actual thought of it scares me to death

Strange symptom
 

So last night I woke up at 12:00am and my shoulder blade area was friggin' KILLING ME and my whole left arm was asleep (like when you sit on your foot too long and you get the pins/needles). I laid there for about 15 min and was so bloody uncomfortable that I got up and walked around for a good 30 min, arm still completely asleep! I took some pain meds, which helped with my shoulder pain, but of coarse it did nothing for my sleeping arm. It took about 2 hours for my arm to come back, but this morning it still feels kinda' weird.

What the heck is this all about, I figured if it was just cause I was sleeping on it weird that the pins and needles would have gone away after a few minutes...do you think this is related to what's going on in my neck...why did it do this? This is new .... :confused:

Most drs are not fully knowledgeable on TOS a sit can be very tricky to dx especially of there is c spine issues also.

What type of TOS does your mother have?
usually called ATOS, VTOS NTOS- arterial, venous, or nerve etc?
Does she have an extra cervical rib?
Can also be called disputed TOS usually when sx are less extreme and not a clear effect. Like with a chronic RSI or non image able scenarios.

It can run in families if body type is similar.

Hi cali4nia
 

The CT scan isn't the end all of finding out what is wrong. It is only one diagnostic tool. Your MRI will tell a whole lot more I think. Jo*Mar is right about at least asking your doctor if these symptoms you are having could be anything like TOS. In my case I had many of the same symptoms you are having, and it was definately in my cervial neck area. Very painful....
Are you seeing a neurologist? or a neurosurgeon for the evaluations??
Keep in touch I do care. It is hard to go through all this testing. Hopefully the doctors will be able to find out what is really wrong and give you some kind of hope for relief. Nobody wants to live in that kind of pain if it can be helped. Yeh the chiropracter isn't such a hot idea when the spine has trouble like that. Not unless a neurosurgron clears you to do so. Most general doctors don't say much at all about it. My own doctor (no longer my doctor) suggested Chiro practor before he even did an xray...BAD idea. I wish you all the best. Leesa is great at reading MRI's. I am OK at it, but she is the best. ginnie:hug::grouphug:

Im not sure
 

which my mom was diagnosed with but I will call her and ask tonight!

two more days till MRI results...so excited I could pee...:o

answer: YES... MRI reports are almost always wrong or they left something of.. Here is the deal, you have to go talk to the MRI Dr. that read your MRI in person, he can't/won't write something he "suspects" he can not write what his 20 years of experience tell him.. he has to report facts.. so if you want his 20 years of experience as to why you have a problem... YOU BETTER GO ASK HIM...

and Cali4Nia I have bilateral shoulder pain at night only.. and OMG.. its hurts.. I was told that was facet joint pain by the MRI Dr (again not the Dr. that ordered the MRI.. but the Dr. that reads the MRI that works for the radiology company)

Hi cali4nia
 

:In my case the doctor who did and read the MRI, the radiologist would not give me any verbal communication. Unfortunately my neuro surgeon didn't tell me all of it either.
I would try those routes of course, your doctors arn't the ones I had. However get a copy of the actual MRI, and the NOTES your neurologist will write about the MRI. Notes of that appointment to dicuss it also should be obtained.
I wish I had done this when I had my own experiences with MRI's. If I had I might have saved myself further surgery.
I sure wish you all the best. I just leaned to cover my bases when dealing with physicians. ginnie :hug:

Agreed. I picked up a copy of my mri cd and report the morning I went to see the first neurosurgeon (2 days after the mri). He did not go over what the report said. He just told me that I presented much better than what the mri showed and put me in physical therapy. When I left the appointment, they gave me the cd. A few days later I was looking at the cd and the very last icon was the report itself. It stated that I had cord changes at c5-6 due to severe compression that was suggestive of myelomalacia. Yikes! Scared the daylights out of me. They blew me off when I called the office about it. I think it is very important to know what your mri says.